"creamy" skin tones?

Other than using PMK, what film/developer combinations or developing techniques have you found effective in creating the smooth, almost creamy skin tones that I sometimes see? I would like to be in the 250-400 ASA range if possible.

<p>

Ben Crabtree

Xosni perhaps you should go out to a gallerie and look at the

photographs of Patrick Dermachelier, Jock Sturges etc, and find for

yourself what the "creamy" skin tones are.

I have been very pleased with good old Verichrome for a creamy skin

tone. This film is availale in 120. I develop is in a blend of Xtol

and Rodinal.

<p>

--Sam

put a yellow or yellow-green filter on the lens and use any damn film

you want....

This is not a direct answer to your specific question, but for the

finest in creamy skin tones I always use Ilford XP-2 Super. Just try

one roll!

What we really need to know is creamy means in 'technical terms',

then it'll be easy figure out how to achieve creamy results. Does it

mean smooth gradation in highlights? Slightly washed out highlights?

<p>

Xosni

Ben,

<p>

In the speed range that you mention i think Tri-X has a reputation

for lovely skin tones. I personally prefer Delta 100. For

skin-tones I would use either of these emulsions developed in

Ilford Perceptol 1+3.

<p>

Just $0.20 worth - which in Aussie Dollars isn't worth much I

guess.

<p>

Jock Sturgess and Irving Penn are the two guys that get creamy

skin tones in my estimation and I can't help but feel they might

be into Tri-X given the era that Penn was prolific and size that

Sturges shoots.

<p>

What my question is is this: What does Gabriele Basilico use to

get creamy cityscapes?

<p>

Walter Glover

Harvey's 777 is known for its rendering of skin tones. See Fred De

Van's article <a

href="http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Harvey/harvey.html">

Remembering 777</a>. I should note that 777 is as toxic as PMK and

considerably more finicky.

<p>

My experience is that rendering of skin tone has a great deal to do

with the quality of light, perhaps more so than film and developer

combination: see <a

href="http://unblinkingeye.com/Photographs/Nudes/1/K1/K1a.jpg">this

photograph</a> (T-Max 400 - EI 400 - developed in PMK) and <a

href="http://unblinkingeye.com/Photographs/Nudes/7/15/15.jpg"> this

one</a> (T-Max 100 - EI 80 - PMK), both taken in late afternoon sun.

I wish all the shots taken those two days had come out as well.

Both Delta films can produce the look you are after. Acros and TMX,

too. Of course only Delta 400 meets your speed requirement.

<p>

With careful attention, most any developer can produce the tonal

scale you're looking for. But it's pretty hard to beat PMK for skin

tone.

<p>

I have to ask, therefore, why not PMK? If you are concerned about

toxicity, you needn't be if you take simple, common sense precautions-

-don't breathe it, drink it, or bathe in it. For tank development

you don't even need gloves, just wash it off if you spill any on your

hands. It's not nearly as threatening as many seem to think.

<p>

It's been asserted that some photographers (notably Weston) in the

past have experienced health problems from using pyro. But these

examples happened from constant, heavy exposure to pyro where, for

example, photographers would immerse their hands in the stuff for

lengthy periods, day after day. It is poisonous and it can be

absorbed through the skin, so sensible precaution is required. But

that's all. It's not radioactive and it will not cause your skin to

shrivel and turn black if you happen to spill any on you. So don't

avoid using PMK because you think it's terribly dangerous. It just

isn't.

Creamy tonalities are sometimes a function of format. Shooting 6X7

will give you creamy skin tones a lot easier than the same film in

35mm. I actually like Kodak's TCN 400 speed chromogenic film for

smooth skin tonalities. But I think it's basically a format issue.

Where do you "sometimes see" these tones, and what format was used?

This is NOT what I would do, but as one possibility, GO DIGITAL!

I think this is exactly the kind of image digital imaging is good at.

<p>

Besides that, as others suggested, use medium format and pay close attention to lighting. But I also like to point out that you should select paper carefully. With proper choice of paper, you should be able to get those look out of TX in stock D-76d (preferrably the second roll or add a bit of bromide). Don't tell me bromide doesn't change the curve shape a lot; it changes something else - more local structure of the image. Soma AGFA, Konica, and Fuji formulae exploit this effect. The reason why D-76 doesn't do this might have something to do with the original intention of D-76 to be used for motion picture applications, but who knows?

Creamy skin tones are a function of the light and the film you use. A

film such a plus x is more red sensitive and therefore hides red

blemishes on the skin. Green and yellow filters add texture to the

skin. Green like a 58 is used with male portraiture because it gives

more texture to the skin making for a more rugged appearance. For a

smooth creamy complextion you need good makeup, good lighting, and a

red sensitive film such as plus x. Tri x is more blue sensitive as are

hp5 and fp4. The delta and tmax films are good for portraiture. But

the main ingrediance for smooth complexsions are good light and good

makeup. There are many good books out about lighting for portraiture.

James

Hmmm. So, if I want creamy skin tones all i need to do is remember

<p>

use Verichrome in Xtol and Rodinal.

put a yellow or yellow-green filter on the lens

use Tri-X

dont use Tri-x

use Delta 100

quality of light more than film and developer

Harvey's 777

use Ilford XP-2 Super.

use T-Max 100 - PMK

use Delta films, Acros and TMX

use larger format

go DIGITAL

use TX in stock D-76d

use good makeup, good lighting, and a red sensitive film

<p>

I've seen creamy skin from HP5+

Nobody mentioned a red filter, so i will.

<p>

I even got creamy skin tones with FP4+ in

Xtol once. However, that negative printed

vastly different and at times very un-creamily depending on what paper

and developer combination I used. I finally settled on Forte PWT+ with

a glycin developer. But thats another confusing thread. I believe

Sturges uses Tri-X in HC-110, in 8x10, on Oriental Warmtone when it

was available

All of the advice above seems to be on the mark. In my experience,

lighting, makeup, the occasional filter (e.g. a yellow-green or even

orange to minimize freckles and other marks), and especially format

all seem to have a greater effect on skin tones than one�s choice of

film.

<p>

That said, with relatively pale subjects, my best results in 35mm --

the creamiest and most appealing skin tones -- have come with Tri-X

and Agfa�s APX100, both developed in Xtol. Perhaps there�s something

unique about the spectral sensitivity curves of these two films?

Delta 100 has also has a nice look, but there does seem to be

something special about the two older emulsions. If you need speed,

the new Delta 400 is also worth a try; I haven't experimented with it

enough to make an authoritative judgement, but a number of

knowledgeable posters to this board have praised it highly.

<p>

As others have noted, T400CN also works well, and when shot at 100 or

even 50 or 32 it will block up enough to make most skin problems

disappear, but the look is entirely different and I prefer

traditional B&W for most subjects.

<p>

Good luck!

I would like to repeat Xosni's question. Well someone define what is

ment but "creamy skintone"-PLEASE.

Creamy skin is similar to flowing water caught by a slow shutter

speed. The textures and change in values are more of a continuum

rather than being sharply defined.

I would have to agree with the filter suggestion. Yellow or orange

would be a good start. Regards. Ken

Two Points:

<p>

Everyone is talking about film (the original topic) but no one

mentions printing. With B&W the "performance" is in the printing.

While a fine grained negative, properly developed, is necessary (the

score) the final effect will come from artful printing.

<p>

Jock Sturges shoots an 8x10 view camera and this certainly contributes

to the beautiful skin tones he gets. Ditto Edward Weston. Ralph Gibson

would be an example of "non-creamy" (chunky?????) skin tones but he

shoots and processes for grain and a gritty appearance.

There are people that likes skin tones like the ones you get with

Technical Pan that has extended red sensitivity, and there are other

people who likes the results with extra blue sensitive films like APX

and Efke 25/50. Creamy? Don't understand the term... Tech Pan/or

yellow or orange filter plus a soft filter?