Autocord vs Rollei - for street, protrait, and landscape

I have been researching for my first TLR. I need advice from our fellow

photo.net members.

 

Why TLR? I started exploring medium format with a Bronica SQ-A system, cheap

from ebay. Works fine, but is too big to carry around. I am used to the 35mm

rangefinder way of shooting - lightweight, simple, discreet. I looked into

medium format rangefinders. They tend to be expensive and not as small as I

want. Shooting with a Mamiya 6 on the street will make me look like another pro

DSLR shooter - although I can't afford it anyway. When I checked out a Bronica

RF at a photo store, the gentlemen showed me a real nice Rolleiflex 2.8F. It is

amazing how small it is and how good it feels on my hands. The Maxwell screen

looks almost like an LCD screen - almost 3D. I also like the waist-level way of

shooting. Given the fact that a medium format camera can't never be "mini-size",

the wasit-level shooting style seems to make a medium format camera less visible

to others. I also hope that the more classic appearance of a TLR will help me

approach my subject and loosen him/her up.

 

I feel a TLR seems to be the cheapest and most practical way to do 6x6 in the

smallest possible package and it has the possibility to open up a whole new

shooting style for me.

 

At this point, I'm sure you have a pretty good idea of what I am looking for

from a TLR. Here is my wish list:

 

1) ligthweight

 

2) reliable (A CLA is planned. But I want it to be virtually service fee down

the road)

 

3) fast to operate

 

4) optical quality (i don't mind a little bit of corner softness, which can add

nostalgia to my photos, but I do plan to use the camera indoor of in the subway,

where I need to open up the lens)

 

5) affordable (budget is around $400 w/ CLA done. Maybe a little more if I have

to. My philosophy about equipment is that no matter how well-built a piece of

equipment is, if it costs me an arm, I will have to think twice before I take it

to dangerous places. It is the price tag that makes the camera vulnerable. I

like cheap reliable cameras)

 

 

Some people recommend the Rolleicord. I heard it is lightweight and reliable.

But it's advancing knob (instead of crank) and its way of setting the f-stop &

shutter seem to make it slow to operate.

 

The Yashicamat 124 is popular. But I heard a lot of bad things about its winding

mechanism being not reliable and has only a certain amount of mileage. What do

you think?

 

 

 

 

Apparently, this leaves me only two practical choices: The Minolta Autocord and

of course the Rolleiflex.

 

Rolleiflex T - I heard lots of good things about it. But I'm worried that its

shutter speed & f-stop lever will be not as intuitive & fast as the dials on the

other rolleiflexs. Any thoughts on this?

 

Rolleiflex 3.5E/F seems to be the king for its reputation in smoothness and

reliability (the 2.8 seems to be overpriced and is out of the question). I also

like the option of adding a prism. Is my $400 budget unrealistic for it? Is

there any other models that are equally usable but at a lower price?

 

Here the Minolta Autocord comes as a very strong candidate. It can preserve film

flatness better by design. Many people say it is very rugged and sturdy and its

optics is excellent. But no one seem to talk about how smooth its winding

mechanism is. Some people also report that its CdS 15-degree reflected meter is

accurate enough for slide film (better meter than Rollei???). Can someone verify

this? I have a handheld meter, but it would be great if the on-camera meter is

good so that I can shoot away with just a camera on my hand. My other concern is

how easy/fast is it to use the meter and set the exposure. How does it compare

to the shutter and f-stop dial of rollei?

 

 

So here is my understanding in Autocord vs. Rolleiflex:

 

 

Autocord has better meter (??), cheaper, better film flatness, cheaper Bay I

accessories

 

Rolleiflex has better mechanics (how much better??), better lens (how much

better??), option to use prism, but the meter sucks

 

 

What about ergonomics? Size and weight? Does the meter add much weight to the

camera?

 

 

 

 

One side of me thinks that it is better to get a taste of TLR with a cheap

Japanese model to see if it is really what I want. THe other side of me figures

that if I need to spend the cash on CLA and maxwell screen and accessories on an

Autocord, why not get a Rollei up front and have a real performer that can stay

with me for the rest of my life..... All these thoughts are tearing me apart.

 

 

I know I have asked a lot of questions here - maybe too many. I just want to

start a discussion here to help me and any TLR newbies to choose our first

camera. Any insight will be appreciated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I cannot tell much about Minolta autocord, but I can tell you much about rolleiflex. I fact I own three of them, 2.8GX, 4.0FW, and baby rollei( I recently aquired a clean body for about $250. they are strudy, reliable have excellent lens and of course excellent results.

my 2.8GX is about 15 yrs old, and i owned it for about 7yrs. during the 7 years time they gave me no problems and cost me nothing in repair catagory so far. they are bigger than 35mm RF cameras, b ut sometimes feel lighter and more compact. They also still produce TLR

so you can still get it reparied by authorized repair shop. as for Miniolta, they say it is a good camera, but I have no experience with them. and I don't know much about repairs. As for Yashica I have about 30yrs old Yashica 124G and and about 60yrs old Yachica LM. both of them work fine and gave me no problems yet. Thus base upon my own experience i would suggest the Rolleiflex, but If it is beyond your budget, Yashica 124-G would be fine too(You can get for $150 ~ 250), about autocord, I can't comment on it because I've never used them.

thanks Suk Hyun.

 

How good is the meter on a Rollei? Should I just save some $ and buy one that has no meter?

The built-in meter is a waste of space in any TLR, unless you're going to carry a greycard or thrust the meter into your subject's face.

 

One small tip for candid TLR use. You can point the camera sideways, while appearing to be taking something straight ahead of you. Most people these days aren't familiar enough with this style of camera to realise that the lens is pointing where the focussing knob ought to be. Just keep your fingers clear of the taking lens!

<p>See this link for <a href="http://members.aol.com/dcolucci/rolleitlr.htm">A Rolleiflex Price Guide</a>

I wouldn't say that meters in TLRs are useless. Occasionally, when I want to travel light, I use the meter in my 2.8E and find it accurate enough for B&W (which is all I ever shoot). Nevertheless, I prefer a separate meter and would pay only a little extra for a camera with a working meter. On a camera like mine, where the meter was optional, I'd pay MORE for one a meterless example than for one with a non-working meter.

I own both Autocords & Rolleicords . . . non-metered. I prefer the Minolta Autocord for ease of use and speed. The Rokkor taking lens of the Minolta is better than the Rolleicord Xenar wide-open, but after f/5.6 not much different. I also find the minolta film plane to be excellently designed for flatness. Rolleicord is good and would greatly benefit from the Maxwell screen.

"The built-in meter is a waste of space in any TLR, unless you're going to carry a greycard or thrust the meter into your subject's face."

 

This is just not true. I use a Rolleiflex 2.8F with meter, and in most lighting situations it is very accurate - I have a Sekonic 508 with me to check my metering. You just need to know the conditions that will fool it - a basic skill.

 

As for comparrison with the Minolta Autocord: the Autocord is a good camera with a reasonably good lens - excellent when stopped down.

 

Advantages: Light, very nice lever focusing (though the lever is fragile), reasonable meter, cheap filters etc. Some models have a cold flash shoe, good film flatness, undoubtedly cheaper CLA, cheaper in general.

 

Disadvantages (compared to Rolleiflex): structurally weaker, sense of poor build, darkish screen,not such excellent lens, who knows what the spares availability is.

 

What would I do on your budget? - Buy an excellent condition Autocord, after having thoroughly checked it out.

"I have a Sekonic 508 with me to check my metering." - Err! Doesn't that just prove my point? If you have to verify the reading of the built-in meter, then why bother with it at all?

I believe the YashicaMat 124G fits your needs, I have one and no experience with Autocord or Rollie. And in case you have trouble with the winding mechanism it can be fixed for less than $400 including the cost of the camera.

Autocord's 15-degree reflected meter looks like a better design than the one on Rollei / Yashica. I figure its recessed design with a hood can block some flare. The 15-degree metering pattern marking on the screen also sounds like a good idea which I can use as a "spot meter" (although it will be a big fat spot).

 

Is it really a better metering system than the Rollei?

 

Can someone verify / comment on this?

My understanding is the Rolleis are parallax corrected automatically, but the AUTOcord isn't. Am I correct? Is it a big deal in practical use?

 

What about the shutter and aperture setting level on the Autocord? Fast/smooth to use? How does it compare with the Rollei?

 

thanks everyone for your help.

I prefer Rolleis, but:

 

"My understanding is the Rolleis are parallax corrected automatically, but the AUTOcord isn't. Am I correct?"--YES

 

"Is it a big deal in practical use?" NO, except for shots between about 2 meters and one meter away, and you can learn to compensate for the lack of parallex correction.

 

As to shutter speed and film speed settings, the wheels on a Rolleiflex (or Yashicamat) are SLIGHTLY more convenient IMO than the levers on an Autocord (or Rolleicord, or Rolleiflex T) but it's a minor point.

 

 

Another difference between later model Rolleiflexes and other TLRs is that you can focus when using the sports finder with the former (albeit on an upside down image). Also, a Rolleiflex Automat has (TA DA) AUTOMATic film loading--no red marks to line arrows up with--also minor, but nice.

What's your budget?

 

One camera has been produced in various forms since 1929 and has been a first choice tool many of professional photographers. Rolleiflex TLRs are built to the highest professional standards - I've shot them all from a 1930 Original through a 2.8F and none have disappointed me.

 

My suggestion is a 2.8C, D or E. The meter is quite useless IMO and paying big bucks for a coupled meter on an F doesn't make sense. The Xenotar 80/2.8 lens on my 2.8E is the sharpest medium format lens I own - even sharper than the Planar 80/2.8 for my Rolleiflex SL66.

I had a YashicaMat 124G years ago. The lens was fantastic but the mechanical build quality was not. It was replaced with a late model meterless Autocord. The Autocord is much nicer mechanically and about as good optically. When you put a prism and a Speed Grip on an SQ-A it can get quite heavy. If I want something lighter I carry an ETR with a waist evel finder and the regular crank. For standard size rectangular prints the 645 format gives almost as much usable space on the negative as 6X6. With a 75/2.8 or 50/2.8 it makes a package not much heavier than a TLR but much more flexible. I also have a Yashica 635 with the 35mm adapter, a Yashica A and a Yashica 44. The A is very light. If you stop it down a little it will make an 8X10 which will give an expensive 35mm camera a run for the money. If I get another TLR it will be a late model Rolleicord Vb.

Weight is an issue. I sold my Rolleiflex because it was so heavy. Later I bought a Flexaret, which probably weighs a third less than the Rollei and I find that much more manageable. It isn't quite as nice to use as the Rollei, but the weight makes the change worthwhile (and it only cost me GBP20, versus GBP250 for the Rolleiflex!). Not all Rolleis are that heavy, but I'd say you might find it best to go to a camera fair or a shop that sells a variety of these cameras - if that's at all possible - and feel the weight. Having said all that, I love my twin-lens cameras and am often surprised by the results I get from them.

I started off on Yashica TLRs and eventually migrated to Rolleiflexs. Prices being what they are, I would probably advise you to go into a Rollei T or something equivalent. It's just a step up in quality for not much money.

 

The shutter speed/aperture lever is actually very quick - get an EV reading from your meter, transfer it to the lever and then you can slide through the various combos of speed and aperture. If you want to override and choose a faster or slower shutter speed for an aperture, pull the lever up and do so.

 

I don't have a preference as to which I like better, but I think the lever system is very easy and very fast.

I've owned several Autocords and Rolleiflexes over the years. Right now I still have a Rollei T and an ancient Autocord. I've used the various Yashicamats too. The Yashicamats just lack the "feel" and smoothness, although the lens is OK. The focussing lever on the Autocord is great when using the sportsfinder. You can learn to set the distance by feel, and it works fine that way at f/8 or smaller.

 

The late model Rollies can be fitted with a prism finder. A log time ago Mamiya made a model of their porroflex finder for Rolleis. Not as bright but a lot lighter than a prism. If you can find a waist level finder from a late model Rollei with the flip-down mirror with eyepiece for focusing it will fit on the Rollei T in place of the original, whih lacks this feature.

 

These sometimes turn up in dealers' "junk boxes" when people bought a prism finder instead.

 

It's relatively simple (I did it) to remove the hood on the Minolta Autocord and rig it to take the Mamiya Porroflex finder for the Mamiya C series TLR's.

 

But back to your original question, my vote is to find an Autocord with clean glass.

So if I go with the Autocord, is it a good idea to get one with a meter or not? How good is the meter? How much weight and bulk does it add?

 

I want to find out whether the meter is worth the extra bulk.

Light meter in TLR not a waste but it's not a waste. At times it comes in handy and is very accurate with rolleiflex. I have 2,8GX and 4.0FW both gives you good accurate results, but if you have a hand held meter you probably won't need a built in meter. These cameras have TTL functions so when you are using flash with correct SCA adapter, in may be useful(I've never tried).

I wouldn't worry about a built in meter. If the meter dies and you CAN get it repaired you'll be without the camera while it's off being serviced. That's the reason you can sometimes pick up a fully functional TLR with a broken meter for next to nothing.

Thank you everyone for your answer.

 

But I still haven't found a direct answer to my question.

 

I have a choice of a metered and non-metered autocord now. My question is, is the recessed 15-degree reflected CdS meter on the autocord a much better design than the Rollei's meter in practical term? (How accurate? How senstive?)

 

I heard from somewhere that it is accurate enough for slide. But want to confirm this.

 

It seems to be a deciding factor to me. If it is good enough, I can shoot away without bringing my Sekonic 608. If it is just as good(bad) as Rollei's meter, I might as well go with a Rolleiflex T or a meterless Autocord to save some weight.

Hi Jack,

 

If I were you I'd get in touch with Karl Bryan, check the last post here http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=008S8j&tag=

I have a different e-mail address for him though. And you can search the classifieds at the Rangefinderforum too, last summer someone sold an Autocord Karl worked on.

 

I had bad luck with a Yashica Mat 124G and returned it. Better luck with a Mamiya C220 but ended up selling it-too big and bulky. I now have two Autocords and Karl worked on both of them. Highly recommended, he really knows Autocords. Paul Ebel is supposed to be good too but Karl will turn your camera around in a day or two.

 

Scott

Dependence on a built-in meter isn't the best criteria for choosing a TLR. The Minolta CdS meter is set up for mercury oxide cells, which are now banned.

 

I sold a Minolta Autocord and purchased a Rolleiflex 2.8C. Unfortunately, I missed the Autocord for street shooting and so I bought another. I plan to hold onto both.

 

Anyway, most of the above posts are spot on, especially those regarding the weight factor of the Rolleiflex. The Xenotar is awesome.

 

To cut the chase, stop worrying about the built-in meter. Buy a camera based on its total overall condition and get a good hand-held meter that also allows for incident readings.

 

Then go out and have fun with which ever camera you settle on.

If you are seriously looking to use this for "street shooting" just how much time are you planning to meter and setup each shot? Thus, having a meter on the camera may not be needed.