100 degree temperature B&W

Discussion in 'Black and White' started by terence_spross|1, Jun 29, 2006.

  1. Besides chromogenic B&W films, are there any B&W films that can be quality
    processed in 100 degree Fareinheit temperature? I process C41 and the tanks and
    solutions are all held in a 100 degree regulated tray. I plan on doing one or
    two B&W rolls at the same developing session and would like the advantage of the
    repeatability of processing in at a regualated temperature. (The summertime dark
    room temperture varies around the seventies and eithties)
     
  2. Good question, Terence. The short answer is that 100F is much too hot for B&W for a number of reasons, but the one that should concern you immediately is the very short developing times. Short times can cause uneven development. Then there is the issue of emulsion damage (except perhaps with TGrain), and most of all the fact that ordinary B&W developers are too active for hot temps.

    You might want to Google "tropical film developing". There are specific developers and procedures for what you wish to do.
     
  3. Why not shoot on C41 B/W? Would seem to solve everything for you.
     
  4. Hi Terence.

    The only film I've developed at anything near that temp is Tmax 400, which I developed at 95F, just to see if it would work, and it did. Development time can be increased by using a more dilute developer, but I've developed a lot of film in the 45-90 sec. range, with excellent results. Risk a few rolls of unimportant images, and give it a try. Good luck.

    Jay
     
  5. Basically, you would need to do pre-hardending of the emulsion before processing, else it would essentially melt off the backing. But finding a suitable hardener not based on formaldeyhde (now on the "evil chemical list") may be hard.
     
  6. I live in the tropics and I don't develop at that temperature. If you're not doing development in the jungle, I don't see why you can't just put your chemicals in the fridge and get them to the right temperature before pouring into the tank.
     
  7. 1) Test the emulsion; or call Kodak/Fuji/Ilford for the various films to see if it (they) can handle 100F -- Emulsion is emulsion in re it doesn't matter if the physical gelatin/polymer mix is for color, monochrome, or x-ray (which is processed at up to 120F);

    2) You can use C-41 developer for an occasional roll of B&W: In fact, it is one of the recommended developers for Tech Pan to hold down its' extreme contrast...
     
  8. C-41 B&W films are remarkably good. Use those. Other than that, I have to say... Your question doesn't really make sense on one level: If you want to do "one or two rolls", why are you worried about repeatable results? You won't even come close to getting the best results out of any traditional B&W film after "1 ro 2 rolls" - the best you can hope for is acceptible results, in which case get some D76, put your finger under a tap and be happy. B&W is not NEARLY as temp sensitive as C41, and adjustments for reasonable temps are well known and widely researched. The amount of time you will take to do a couple of rolls of most films, will allow you to maintain an acceptible temperature through the process if your tap-water is anywhere close to the 20 deg C that is the standard temp for most B&W developing data. Also, keep in mind that B&W film has many properties that can be controlled through development other than just being too think or too thick: biggest one is contrast, but also grain size, edge effects, and a slew of things that are contoleed by other aspects of development such as agitation methods.
    C41 basically gives you the ability to process a roll of film properly, or not or perhaps push it a bit. With taditional B&W there is so much more to it that if you truly want "quality processing" and "repeatable results", well, you will first of all need to figure out what you want and then how to repeat it. Other than that, I would suggest sticking with chromogenic films unless you are willing to invest the time in experimenting with a variety of other films and your current process - a far more expensive and time consuming adventure than buying a daylight tank and a thermometer and reading some data sheets. Not to mention, with far less predictible results.
     
  9. Dear Terence,

    I would try C-41 developer at the normal time (3 min?). Bracket heavily, develop, print, adjust.
     
  10. Jay - your using T-Max at 95 degrees sounds interesting, is there any grain size concern relative to 68 degrees? Data sheets don't show process times for B&W beyond 75 degrees typically but I suspect some films can take it. I know Tri-X emulsion gets soft in the eighty degree range based on another's tale of woe on another thread; and it is the fear of commercial processors that if someone spools their own B&W but accidently submits it as C41 it can gunk up a machine requiring a complete machine shutdown/cleanup. (This is one reason I'm developing more C41 - labs won't take my 160NC I spooled off a bulk roll.) As far as B&W: by quality processing I mean I don't want to have any larger grain or density issues. I just want a couple rolls I process one weekend to match a couple rolls I process one week later and then match what I do six months from now. I'm trying to limit my darkroom wet time to one-hour a week for everything and so I'd like to do the B&W at the same time as color. I already expecting to experiment about dilute developer to extend the dev. time some but I just need a head start in the film selection area.
    I'm not sure I'd like the chromogenic B&W films other characteristics but I'll give a test roll a try.
     
  11. Terence, short development times promote fine grain, as the finer grains are the first to develop. Tmax emulsions are extremely well hardened, specifically for rapid, high temp processing, as are some aero films. Give it a try, and see for yourself. Good luck. Jay
    00H8NC-30908884.jpg
     
  12. is there a darker band runing vertically in that photo Jay?

    when i develop for 6 to 7 minutes, i got a darker band, or lighter edges, along the length of the 135 film. that's not even close to your 60 to 90 seconds range.

    what's the cause of such darker band? what do you do to avoid that?
    Kodak says extend your arm and twist your wrist rigorously, to do the agitation. will that solve the problem? will that cause surge marks on the other hand?

    - refinder
     
  13. Oh, I now see what you mean about repeatability. I see your point - however, I fear you may spend more time and effort trying to get this all to work predictably and to your liking than you would if you just "gave up" and tried the traditional way.
    As far as C41 B&W films, if you want fine grain, you will not really find anything finer from a 400 speed emulsion - they also have a pretty good latitude (although personally I dislike the way they look when under-exposed). They are rather unfairly treated as the unwanted baby of the B&W photo world (even by myself, I have to admit). The Ilford product is the one I can speak of from experience, and its a very pleasant film to use - I find it takes a slight adjustment when printing compared to traditional B&W, but other than that - its truly under-appreciated!
    Best ofluck.
     
  14. refinder,

    the scan is from an 8x10 print made from a 120 neg, and the banding is a scanner artefact, which is why I switched to a film scanner. Incidentally, the films I developed in the 45-90 sec. range were developed at 70F in my Rapid Universal developer, and none showed uneven development of any kind.

    Jay
     
  15. thank you Jay for the reply!

    wow, no uneven development, how did you do it? do you use small tank? i use HC-110, will that make the difference?

    - refinder
     
  16. refinder, I don't know how HC110 works with rapid development. My agitation varied with format; for rollfilm I inverted slowly and continuously, and for sheets, I rolled in tubes, or brushed in trays. My developer was a PCQ (phenidone/ascorbate/hydroquinone) developer for film or paper. Undiluted it develops paper normally, and film in around 60sec. It can also be diluted for more normal film developing times. I used the hydroquinone as insurance against ascorbate failure, but have since found better ways to overcome that particular problem. The developer works divided as well. Jay
    00H9Mw-30939984.jpg
     
  17. Peter: Thanks for the suggestion of trying Ilford. In the couple weeks I'll get around to trying a couple rolls of chromegentic films, I just don't want to buy a bulk roll and then be stuck without another way to process if I would prefer a different emultion. (My daughtrer may prefer to process her rolls herself in D-76.) At least with T-Max I can always use it at a lower temperature.
    It seems my daughter left one of my Patterson tanks in the High School darkroom and I won't be able to get it until next Sept. - and she is on to college. So I'm down to only two single roll rapid pour tanks. My preferred way of processing is audio tapes that que when to dump, agitate etc and I have a couple tapes and tanks running at the same time(staggered so I'm not doing pouring simultaneously.) The audio refers to colors marked on the tanks so I don't get confused and so far I haven't messed up.

    Definder: It is important to use tanks that allow the solutions to be added and poured out rapidly. I have an old Ansco tank (my first tank) that is too slow for rapid development. Also, lines on the length of film are often from using insufficient chemistry to cover the film: measure the amount of water needed to visually cover the reel in an open tank and don't assume that twice the amount of liquid is sufficent to cover 2 reels in a dual tank as compared to a single reel. I had that happen to the top roll the first time I developed two rolls in a dual tank. I don't know if that is that is the cause of your lines but it's a thought.
     
  18. thank you for the information and help Jay! your second image looks even better, great job! this is good data, have you submitted to the massive dev chart?

    Terence, thank you very much for the hint! i'm pretty sure i had enough solution in my 35mm single roll tank. i tried to lower the temperature in order to increase development time to 8 to 10 minutes, and the problem went away. still don't understand it though. i was using HC-110 dilution H.

    - refinder
     
  19. A job for 777 Developer?
     

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