Buyer tips on Crown Graphics

G'day all,

I am looking at stepping into LF and whilst I mainly shoot MF and

still some 35mm from time to time I am looking at the Crown Graphic to

be my initial entry point into LF. I shoot mostly outdoor, landscape,

scenics, some architecture, night and low light and the odd street and

people shots. Any advice on how this camera handles for outdoor

landscape work and some of the above genre's would be greatly

apreciated as well as what lenses I should be looking at acquiring for

this work. What are your tips for making sure a Crown Graphic is in

good enough condition to be worth buying. In other words what am I

looking for when buying a Crown Graphic which determines it being a

keeper as opposed to a dog as I know my way around MF cameras but have

no experience with this type.

 

TIA, Si

stick to mf for people, you can try lf but dept of field is limited and the set up time makes for less than candid shots.. the best part of lf crown is accessories,, polaroid back for one . this really gets the job done on macro and scenics. i like the 405 back becouse it gives exposures and center of shot focus just fine.. i would recomend same asa on polaroid and end usefilm to cut down on erors... i got a apo 135 rodenstock symar s and it fits in the camera closed, and is a knock out lens for this camera.. the older lenses are reveared by many but just not in the class of this rodenstock... find just the right size small garbage bags to keep camera in. they are dust magnets... a heavy tripod is a must, and good meter, get a variable flash made by vivitar and your set. one vivitar model will take a vari flash and is amiazing along with another flash to set up two flash shots on people and floweres, macro etc... set up range scale and stops for the lens on camera bed, and take off all the garbage off the camera.. get a 10x loop to focus and you can use a coat for hood over head and fresnel.. youll get a lot of strange looks but your head will be covered..shoot lots of velvia, and get a good light box and view with 10x loop.. you wont belive it.. truly amazing..good for 30x40 prints with good neg or chrome.. .. good luck dave.

Simon, IMHO I think a Crown would work very nicely. You might want to take a gander at www.graflex.org which has lots of information and links you might find interesting. For night, low light, odd street and people shots the Crown really shines. Using the fast,old press lenses that these cameras often come with and the infinity stops properly adjusted, depth of field really isn't a problem(at least in my view.) For landscapes and architecture keep in mind that the Crowns are limited(compared to flat beds and monorails)in movements, but they have enough to handle most situations(again, my view) To get a really good idea of how versatile these cameras are look for a copy of "Graphic Graflex Photography" by Morgan and Lester--- commonly available in used book shops. For lenses, if you want to take advantage of being able to handhold your camera(which is great fun) stick with faster lenses=f/4.5-f/4.7 For general use, I like the 127 f/4.7 Kodak Ektar,and for portraits the 162 f/4.5 Wollensak Velostigmat, but there are many other excellent lenses available including the 203 f/7.7 Kodak Ektar and 135 WF Ektar as well as 120 Angulon, 90 Ilex Caltar, Dagors, and plenty of modern lenses too. All these lenses, except for the 127 Ektar, would also perform nicely(movements) on any other 4x5 you may decide to add later on. Things you should look out for would be leaky bellows and stripped tripod sockets. I haven't had much luck in getting the body releases to work so you might want to check that out carefully if you intend to use it, or use a cable release instead. Fred Lustig is the man to see for repairs, I believe his telephone number is on the Graflex.org site. He also can fix old press shutters. My Crown is the press model with a side mounted range finder, which I prefer to the top mounted finders on the Crown Special, but to each his...well you get the idea! Have fun!

<p>Greetings, Simon!</p><p>Like everyone else has already said, a Crown Graphic is an excellent way to get into LF photography. That's exactly what I did about 5 years ago. Someday I might upgrade to something with more movements, but for most landscape photography it has been more than adequate.</p>

<p>As for lenses, for WA I use a Schneider 90mm/6.3 Angulon. It allows only very limited movements, so if you want to do architecture, get a modern Super Angulon. I say that with the full knowledge that the Crown won't have enough movements to fully utilize the large image circle of the SA, but if you ever borrow or rent a view camera for an architectural job, you already have the lens. For a normal lens, I am using a Rodenstock Sironar-N 150mm/5.6 (great lens). I haven't moved up to telephoto yet, but with 12" of bellows, you can't go very far. For some good, in-depth articles about lenses, look up the back issues of View Camera Magazine (http://www.viewcamera.com/) and see the articles by Kerry Thalmann. The articles aren't online, I just gave you the web address for a contact point. It's a great mag to subscribe to, you'll learn a lot.</p>

<p>You already have a tripod for the Crown because it's probably lighter than your RB67. Get a few adapter rings and use all the filters you presently own.</p>

<p>I don't use quickloads because I can barely afford 4x5 film as it is, so I've battled the dust demons. The best advice I can give you there is to brush out the film holder and dark slide with an anti-static brush and then brush the film before you close it all up. There are many whole threads on that topic alone.</p>

<p>The main thing is slow way down in your shooting. You don't want to be burning through the film like in 35mm or MF. It's a lot of fun and I'm sure you'll love it. And one nice thing for you guys down under, the image in the ground glass is right side up! :-) (sorry, couldn't resist)</p>

Thanks for the great comments guys!

A couple of additional questions are as follows. Whats the general price range of these cameras, what kit add ons should I be on the look out for that might sweeten a deal, whats the deal with using flash on these wonders (I hear the connectors are the old two pronged affair, how does the modern man get around this?). I know that with MF the focal length equivalents are very different to 35mm lenses, can anyone tell me what the ratios are compared to 35mm or MF lenses in terms of Focal length? Whats the deal with LF DOF, as with the aforementioned MF you lose a little at any given apterture compared to 35mm, is this even more pronounced with LF? I assume you can use any and all filters useable with MF with LF also? I am heartened by informative responses so far and hope that more are still yet to come. Oh and are there any specific Books that are MUST HAVES regarding LF and specifically Crown Graphics? I have Adams the Negative and have a sneaking suspicion that The Camera might have much info on LF and Crowns, is this off base?

 

Regards all, Si

Simon, John's Graphic Graflex Photography is on target. Procuring a copy whould be your first order of business. Keep in mind that any pre 1947 edition won't have the Crown. I like the ninth edition (1952, also reprinted in 1971). Reading this will save headaches later.

 

Make sure check the type of flash sync on the shutter. The bipole connections are no problem. Paramount makes cords for this to any configuration you like.

 

Learn about side and top rangefinders. Both work.

 

Make friends with an elderly press photographer. Good luck.

Simon, IMHO a much better and cheaper camera would be the Busch Pressmen model D 4x5. It is built better then the Crown Graphics ( more like a Linhof Tech). You can find them selling for $150 - $350 including lens.

Simon, modern lenses work just fine on old press cameras.

 

I see you're in Oz. Are Crowns thick on the ground there? I ask because I have no idea at all.

 

If you're planning to import one, you might consider buying from Midwest Photo Exchange (www.mpex.com). They know the cameras, usually have several in stock, and in my experience are 100% trustworthy. You might be able to get one for less on, say, eBay, but MPEX offers a better chance of getting a good 'un.

 

Cheers,

 

Dan

Again, Thanks guys!

Dan...

 

I checked the website listed as I'm not too sure Crowns are thick on the ground at all as yet. How does this setup sound for a beginner?

 

4X5 Crown Graphic w/127 Ektar, w/filters, 9 $399 (From MPEX)

 

Regards, Si

Simon: Things I'd look for at/in checking out a crown: 1. Does the front bed lock up tight and unlock freely when folded? 2. Bellows OK (almost always are) 3. Does the swivel lock at the bottom of the front standard hold it on the track securely when locked? 4. Look at the front standard from the front, is it lopsided or bent anywhere? 5. Does front rise work and lock in place? 6. Is focus smooth and does it lock in place when you want it to? 7. I prefer the Kalart rangefinder for adjustability, but in any event is the second image for focus bright and clear or very faint? Is is reasonably accurate compared with ground glass (Kalart) or right on the money (top mounted) You can adjust the Kalart later if it is working? 8. I prefer the 135 Schneider 4.7 for "normal" but the Ektar is fine. Is the glass clean and not marked up with cleaning marks and does the shutter fire accurately at all but the very top speed? $60-80 to get the shutter fixed The Schneider has a normal "x" synch post on it, by the way 9. Does the focus scale on the bed match the lens? Does the mask on the viewfinder match the lens? 10. Does the body shutter release work? 11. Does it have a Graflok back as opposed to the other two? Is the ground glass intact and the proper fresnel installed (Kodak Ektalite fresnel, it is installed in front of the glass which is contrary to most cameras) Is the flip up rear sight present as well as the "hoop" for the sports viewfinder (non-optical) 11. Are cosmetics good enough for you? I can't agree with all the advice you've been given and with practice think you will find you can photograph people and work without a heavy tripod if you want to. Most medium weight tripods would be fine with a Crown, like a Bogen 3221 or something like that. Yes, depth of field is an issue, since a 135 (or 127 mm) lens is still a 135 mm lens. Try getting a working Grafmatic as well. This costs $60-$75 and is a film cassette you load up in the dark with six sheets of film, it makes using the camera much easier and more spontaneous since you just cycle the sheets through it. A two lens kit with this camera (135 or 127 And a Angulon 6.8) is very handy and compact. When these come up for sale they are sometimes still in the original case, put away years ago when the owner switch to 35mm. In that state, the second lens, optical converter for the viewfinder, etc. tend to all be there with two bed scales and that saves tracking down all the parts. Prices? A decent Crown with a Schneider 135 mm lens can be had for around $225-$280. Condition should be extraordinary if the price is up in the $300's. Good luck, don't be discouraged, you'll like that big film and lots of help is available here.

I think that Crown Graphics are great; they have very near the legendary "hockey puck" durablity. There are only a few things that you should look for in a used one. 1)They should actually look pretty good, not terribly beat up. The front door should fit perfectly when closed, not dragging on the hinge or anything like that to indicate that there is an aleignment problem. 2)The top rangefinder model is much more desirable, but be sure that the cam is the correct one for the lens supplied. The Kalart side mounted RF can be easily adjusted for any normal focal length lens. The RF image should not be really dim or you've got a tarnished mirror. 3) check for dust INSIDE the camera. The outside is easy to spiffy up, but if there's dust imbeded inside I'd be very cautious. 4) be sure that it has the Fresnel screen, and preferably a smooth fitting Graflock back. 5) Of course, the very first thing is to take it into a dark room and shine a flashlight inside with the bellows extended all the way, to check for light leaks. Graphic bellows are VERY tough, so there shouldn't be any leaks. I'm sure that I've forgotten something, but feel free to contact me directly if you have questions.

Kevin and Ben,

Awesome information guys and just what I needed to know, I can't thankyou both enough. I thought the MF forum was a great friendly informative place; I think I've found a second home.

 

One last thing: Since I am new to these camera's I am still not totally ofay with all the terminology regarding the working parts and running gear of the Crown Graphics. While I can guess at a few things It's difficult without some kind of arrows and labelling system, to get my head around where everything is, how it works and relates to the working unit as a whole. Does anybody have access to or a web addy to a manual styled run down of this camera's working parts?

 

Best, Si

Sorry fella's,

Just checked Graflex.org again and it seems with some careful reading things will be explained...

Bill sorry for the Ben mistake, got my 6 month old baby bro on the brain!

If you want to see what can be done when you take a camera of this kind to the limit of outdoor/night-time/people look at the work of "Weegee". He dragged this thing around Times Square in NYC for years, shooting every kind of sleazy night-life and got some classic shots. He really pushed this 4x5 press camera to the limit.

 

I got one on eBay from a guy in New Zealand (of all places) and it's great. Do not be afraid to re-build and repair it yourself if you are at all handy with a jeweler's screwdriver. I replaced the semi-silvered mirror in the rangefinder with one I got from Edmund Scientific catalog. With a little patience, I got the rangefinder and infinity stops to work accurately. I also cleaned and lubed the focus rails and bed.

 

I use a Schneider Symmar-S 135mm lens and it is very small, sharp and closes inside the camera very neatly. It is easy to trip with my hand but it also looks like I could get the body-mounted release to work if I put in a little effort.

 

Go have fun.<div></div>

Simon: A good Crown can make a nice user, but you owe it to yourself to check out the Busch Pressman D, Graflex Super Graphic and the older Linhof Technika III.

Simon: The price swings are mostly due to condition, and I agree if you're buying the camera to use it you may be able to get one for $200 or less. Doubtful with a Schneider lens, but possible. You can put a multicoated more modern plasmat on the camera like a Symmar-S and upgrade the camera that way, better negative quality and a chance to use the front rise so verticals will look straight. The useful image circle of the original "press" type lenses really just barely covers the negative. With the more modern lens it will still be foldable. As many have reported here, the Wollensak lenses for these can be excellent peformers too. So go for it and get hooked on LF. Be sure to buy lots of film so all of us don't have to make our own someday. Buying over Ebay is difficult because so many of the sellers don't know much about what they are selling, it's my father's camera, etc.

Note that if you buy a Crown with a top rangefinder, you can't use it with a modern lens unless you make a cam for the lens. Instructions for doing so are at www.graflex.org. A side rangefinder can be used with a modern lens but needs to be adjusted for each lens that you put on the camera.

 

The Speed Graphic, unlike the Crown, has a focal plane shutter and can be used with barrel and enlarger lenses. However, it is a pound or so heavier than the Crown.

Whats the situation with the 65mm on the Crowns? I believe for this camera this is considered a wide. How do the 65's perform and does anybody have experience in landscape work with this focal length and the Crown?

Lots of advice to digest. So here is a little more...

 

A Crown is just a box with bellows to hang a lens and filmholding device upon. That makes the what can go wrong a lot simpler.

 

Some observations...

 

A Busch with revolving back is better than a Crown. A Crown is better than a Speed for the type shooting you wish to do. With a fast 127 Ektar lens in great shape, you should be able to shoot street all day/night long. Supermtic shutters are almost bulletproof. The Press camera for many years. An Ektar in good shape is just as good a lens as the Xenar.

 

Now about rangefinders... Keep the rangefinder set up for your primary lens. They have replacable cams but what a pain. So get your infinity stops, rangefinder and lens all setup and calibrated for total focus range use.

 

Now when you want to change out lens for WA or Telephoto use, use the groundglass and a loupe. Boards are still made for the 4x5 Crown, you can get them on the auction site.

 

About price, under 200 bucks if you are careful and get a good lens. Buy a couple of other lens and put the money into something like a Super Angulon or the like. Busch seem to go cheaper than Crowns, stay away from B&J, they are less user friendly, from what I have heard.

 

My outfits?

 

A 4x5 Speed Graphic with a Fujinon 150/6.3, no rangefinder, focusing done via groundglass.

 

A 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 Speed with a 101 Ektar 4.5, calibrated rangefinder and Singer 2 1/4 square back. Also have a Xenar 150 4.5 barrel lens for it.

 

A 3 1/4 x 4 1/4 Kalart Press that I am still bringing on line.

 

Best of luck, don't be afraid to ask questions.

 

tim

Simon, the $400 for a used Crown that MPEX quoted you is high relative to the prices they go for on eBay, but then MPEX is also selling you insurance. And yes, you may never need the insurance.

 

About 65s, older 90s (Angulon f/6.8, Wollesak Raptar f/6.8) are the shortest lenses routinely used on 4x5 Crowns. Ask on the www.graflex.org, iirc Les Newcomer who posts there regularly uses a 65 Grandagon on his 4x5 Crown.

 

For what its worth, I use 2x3 Graphics. The 2x3 equivalent of the older 90s, e.g., 65/6.8 Raptar, will make infinity on a 2x3 Crown/Century but not on a 2x3 Speed. A more modern 65, e.g., an Ilex Acugon 65/8 or Super Angulon 65/8, will make infinity on both cameras. Not sure if my Acugon (covers ~ 155 mm, overkill for 2x3) will make infinity on a 4x5 Crown, if you bug me about it I suppose I could go measure back focus at infinity.

 

There's no reason to restrict yourself to older lenses on an older cameras, if the new ones will fit at all (a bigger problem for 2x3 than for 4x5) they have some advantages.

 

Cheers,

 

Dan

I started out in LF with a Busch Pressman and then a Super Graphic. I have to add an opinion that movements are the reason to use LF. Unless you are planning to make huge prints - bigger than 20X24, a LF without decent movements will be much more trouble with few advantages relative to a decent 6X7. One LF advantage is the ability to shoot and develop one sheet at a time. I quite quickly traded up to a Tachihara. If you want to give LF a try, the Graphics and other press cameras are fine. If your budget will allow, you might consider one of the lower priced wooden fields as thier added ability for decent movements is a real plus.

Simon, an after thought.... while Graphics are common in the northern part of the western hemisphere, in your neck of the woods you might consider one of the well made British cameras. The Meridian comes to mind. I know very little about it, but I have heard good things about it. I believe it also has a revolving back, a very useful feature the Crown does not have. You might also have better access locally to parts and service.

hi simon -

 

thought i would add my 2¢ .. make sure you get a camera with a graflock

back, not a spring back. you will be able to use all the accessories with the

graflock, while the spring will wish for all the accessories to be used with it.

don't underestimate the speed graphic. the focal plane shutter will allow you

to use barrel, flat field ( copy work &c) and brass lenses ... there are a lot of

graphic optar's and tele-optars in barrel shutters ... and using the focal plane

shutter is a breeze hand held. while it weighs a little more, it is well worth it!

you might be thinking " yikes, focal plane shutter, but i might get one that is

broken &c .." there is alway fred lustig in nevada, he will calibrate - tune up &c

focal plane shutters for less than 100$ .. :) he has original parts, or makes

new parts that are exactly like the factory parts ...

 

good luck!

 

- john<div></div>

Um, Ken, surely you were thinking of the British imitation Linhofs made by Micro Precision Products, MPP for short?