Leica M4-2: First Impressions

The small window is a light source for the RF patch - the cleaner the window, the cleaner the RF patch. Listen to the slow sounds (15th of a sec. in particular) - you should hear a slight bounce after the initial click. On the rest of the slow speeds you should here a smooth consistent buzz. Any irregularity in these sounds will indicate the shutter is dry and time for a CLA.

 

Why did I get into all of that? Because the RF patch window looks like it has internal fungus and could be a sign of other issues. Maybe it's time for a CLA?

 

Minimally the "smudge" should be cleaned out as fungus has a tendency to spread. If this is the only issue it's just a matter of removing the topcover and cleaning the class and the area around it. This, by itself, would be a fast and easy repair.

 

Thanks, Bill. The seller has a 14-day return policy but taking this option would cost me about as much money as a CLA in shipping + insurance charges. Would a CLA get rid of the fungus or could it be too late in terms of the potential damage? I guess I am trying to figure out if there is a point where it makes more sense to return the item and look for another Leica M. What do you think?

Thanks, Bill. The seller has a 14-day return policy but taking this option would cost me about as much money as a CLA in shipping + insurance charges. Would a CLA get rid of the fungus or could it be too late in terms of the potential damage? I guess I am trying to figure out if there is a point where it makes more sense to return the item and look for another Leica M. What do you think?

How does the shutter sound? A CLA + finder upgrade will set you back around $550 - that'll solve any and all issues for many years to come. Personally, assuming you didn't pay top dollar for it, that's exactly what I would do.

 

I never buy a camera sight unseen without assuming it needs a CLA - regardless of what the seller says. In fact, I can't think of a single instance where a used M camera I purchased didn't need a CLA. If this is an eBay purchase, let it be reflected in your buyer feedback.

 

Contact Don Goldberg ("DAG") - dagcam[at]chrus[dot]net and move on. ...

Edited February 14, 2021 by Bill Blackwell Images

Personally I prefer a Leicavit advance to any motor I've used on a film camera. A bit pricey, but there you have it!

I agree with Sandy 100% - if you can find one at a decent price, that is. The modern Leicavit-M's are scarce and expensive.

How does the shutter sound? A CLA + finder upgrade will set you back around $550 - that'll solve any and all issues for many years to come. Personally, assuming you didn't pay top dollar for it, that's exactly what I would do.

 

I never buy a camera sight unseen without assuming it needs a CLA - regardless of what the seller says. In fact, I can't think of a single instance where a used M camera I purchased didn't need a CLA. If this is an eBay purchase, let it be reflected in your buyer feedback.

 

Contact Don Goldberg ("DAG") - dagcam[at]chrus[dot]net and move on. ...

 

Bill, thanks again for your insights. The shutter sounds normal as described. After looking at some photos online and my own experience with fungus on optics, I am now wondering if the spot is haze or some kind of chemical/glue. It lacks the fine hairline/tree branch appearance of fungus. In any case, I've contacted a tech for CLA work and hopefully I'll send it in soon. I also watched some videos and read a couple of online manuals; it looks like removing the top plate is a pretty simple job with the right tools.

... I am now wondering if the spot is haze or some kind of chemical/glue. It lacks the fine hairline/tree branch appearance of fungus. In any case, I've contacted a tech for CLA work and hopefully I'll send it in soon. ... it looks like removing the top plate is a pretty simple job with the right tools.

I had similar "spots" in the RF window of the M2 I purchased last year and it ended up being mold. Yes, removing the topcover isn't that difficult; still, I'd have a technician do it in case there are other issues to deal with - and I'd have the flair-free optic installed while the top is off. But again, that's me.

Congratulations on your new camera!

 

Can the seller tell you if its ever been CLA'd? One thing is the Leica rangefinder is not a precise camera. The slow speeds can sound fine, with the little bounce etc. but doesn't mean that they are at spec'd after so many years.

 

If the fungus hasn't etched the glass I think it can be cleaned. Like Bill said DAG would certainly be able to say. Did you develop any film? You'll want to see if its light tight and that the cloth curtains don't have any pinholes, especially if they haven't been replaced 60 years or so. It's often normal for a used camera to need a CLA. Sometimes the seller can be persuaded to share in the cost of that if you are paying full value for the camera based on how its condition is represented.

 

I too keep thinking about shooting some film, I think it does still retain its own look. I have an old FE2 as well as M's. Just a different system. FE2 has a good build and is certainly sturdy, not like the F2 or F3 as it's a little lighter build but not shabby at all. The Ms are a level of quality build above that you can feel . But comparing use of the 2 is a longer answer. Basically, any camera that works well is not hard to use once you understand it. Old non-metered Ms are as about as simple as you can get but they are not the most precise for framing.

Congratulations on your new camera!

 

Can the seller tell you if its ever been CLA'd? One thing is the Leica rangefinder is not a precise camera. The slow speeds can sound fine, with the little bounce etc. but doesn't mean that they are at spec'd after so many years.

 

If the fungus hasn't etched the glass I think it can be cleaned. Like Bill said DAG would certainly be able to say. Did you develop any film? You'll want to see if its light tight and that the cloth curtains don't have any pinholes, especially if they haven't been replaced 60 years or so. It's often normal for a used camera to need a CLA. Sometimes the seller can be persuaded to share in the cost of that if you are paying full value for the camera based on how its condition is represented.

 

I too keep thinking about shooting some film, I think it does still retain its own look. I have an old FE2 as well as M's. Just a different system. FE2 has a good build and is certainly sturdy, not like the F2 or F3 as it's a little lighter build but not shabby at all. The Ms are a level of quality build above that you can feel . But comparing use of the 2 is a longer answer. Basically, any camera that works well is not hard to use once you understand it. Old non-metered Ms are as about as simple as you can get but they are not the most precise for framing.

 

Thanks, Barry. The seller is a reputable online seller (I will not name them here because I haven't contacted them about this issue yet and I'm sure they will help if I do). I have a 14-day return and 180-day warranty period both of which are still valid. The problem is I am currently overseas and had the camera shipped to me so sending it back for a return or work will cost me the same or more than a CLA potentially.

 

I went through the checklist on the cameraquest website after I got the camera and everything checks out. The 1 and 1/15 sec shutter speeds react just like described there and by Bill above, there is not a spec of dust or anything else anywhere on the shutter curtain or interior of the camera as far as I can see without taking the top plate out. The viewfinder is clear and crisp with no specs or spots. I film-tested it and the shutter works properly at most speeds I tested out (I have had black banding due to shutter lag on higher speeds on other cameras before). All speeds, slow to high, produce results as expected.

 

I find it a bit unusual that the rangefinder window is the only place that has this unusual spot. I will call the seller on Monday to ask discuss this issue and see what can be done about it.

Understood. I think you will really like using it whether you keep it or return it and get another. All the film Ms are beautifully built cameras.

Welcome to the Leica world of angst and anxiety, and frequent CLA's "just to be sure". ;)

 

I see no indication of fungus in your picture of the rangefinder window. If it doesn't wipe off, then it would appear to be on the opposite side of the glass. In that case, a close look with a magnifying glass should tell you if it is fungus or not - it is not that hard to identify the organic growth of mould.

 

I can't tell you it is nothing or that it is OK not to do anything, but if I were confident it is not a growth you see in the window, I'd just enjoy the camera as is (as it sounds like it works perfectly), and have it addressed when the camera eventually, some time in the future, really need an overhaul.

I don't belive in preventive CLA's. If it works; use it. If it has a problem - send it in. You don't get "perfect" from a 45 years old used camera.

Edited February 14, 2021 by NHSN

I have to agree with Niels. This can lead to a situation of fix it until it’s broken. The older Leicas are tough, I’ve taken tumbles skiing, and fallen off motorcycles with them. Perhaps I was just lucky, but they’ve only just had one CLA that was done by an expert. One of my two M4’s jammed and the frame selector was getting sticky, had them both done. My experience is NOT USING the camera may make it need more service. Invest in a couple bricks of your favourite films and have fun. Call it preventative maintenance! ;-)

If you like the idea of a base plate winder, look up Tom Abrahamsson's Rapidwinder instead of the late series Leicavit. Rapidwinder made a series that fits the M4-2. Good website if you want to take a look. At one time Steve Gandy carried them.

Welcome to the Leica world of angst and anxiety, and frequent CLA's "just to be sure". ;)

 

I see no indication of fungus in your picture of the rangefinder window. If it doesn't wipe off, then it would appear to be on the opposite side of the glass. In that case, a close look with a magnifying glass should tell you if it is fungus or not - it is not that hard to identify the organic growth of mould.

 

I can't tell you it is nothing or that it is OK not to do anything, but if I were confident it is not a growth you see in the window, I'd just enjoy the camera as is (as it sounds like it works perfectly), and have it addressed when the camera eventually, some time in the future, really need an overhaul.

I don't belive in preventive CLA's. If it works; use it. If it has a problem - send it in. You don't get "perfect" from a 45 years old used camera.

I have to agree with Niels. This can lead to a situation of fix it until it’s broken. The older Leicas are tough, I’ve taken tumbles skiing, and fallen off motorcycles with them. Perhaps I was just lucky, but they’ve only just had one CLA that was done by an expert. One of my two M4’s jammed and the frame selector was getting sticky, had them both done. My experience is NOT USING the camera may make it need more service. Invest in a couple bricks of your favourite films and have fun. Call it preventative maintenance! ;-)

 

Thanks guys. Another option is to keep an eye on it and see how it goes. Definitely enjoying the camera so far.

Hey best luck with teh "new" camera! If you feel like sharing some photos taken with your new toy, I'd love to see some, and I'm reasonably certain everyone would agree.

Hey best luck with the "new" camera! If you feel like sharing some photos taken with your new toy, I'd love to see some, and I'm reasonably certain everyone would agree.

We start a W/NW Pic-O'-The-Week thread precisely for such sharing. ...

Leica snobs looked down on the Canadian-made M4-2, but the one I bought in the 1980s had the smoothest shutter release and film advance of any Leica I've owned. Later I traded it for an M6 because I wanted a built-in meter, but I still miss the M4-2's smoothness. Maybe mine was an unusually good sample.

My M4-2 was CLA'd 10 year ago and it still has a nice smooth shutter release as described above. I found it possible to get crisp shots at 1/30th if I was careful, well braced and hadn't had too much coffee. Very nice camera for low light shots. Good luck with yours.

But, I think that if I'm buying another M body, it's going to be a new one. Probably an M-A.

In the extremely unlikely event that I would consider purchasing an M film body, then the only one I'd consider would be the M5; preferably unmodified.

In the extremely unlikely event that I would consider purchasing an M film body, then the only one I'd consider would be the M5; preferably unmodified.

Terrific engineering, but it is not a good looking camera. It almost looks like it came from the Eastern Bloc. Almost.

Terrific engineering, but it is not a good looking camera. It almost looks like it came from the Eastern Bloc. Almost.

True on the first part - quite a few things that were unique to that camera and at least for me would have been very welcome in subsequent models (like the shutter speed dial and the metering display in the viewfinder). Last Leica M model made the "old way" of working the components until they fit. Granted, not the best looking Leica (though not that much different in the design from a Leica SL or a Nikon F/F2) but to me the most practical one, especially when used with the larger lenses of the M system. Unfortunately, the one I inherited had the viewfinder modified, so I never got to experience the original one. My M6 Classic was certainly nicer to look at - but that was about the only advantage over the M5.

I remember talking with Sherry Krauter and she said the M5 was her favorite Leica because the meter was so accurate. I've never used one or seen one "in the wild" :) But it seems that the metering is similar to the match metering on the Nikon FE2. Is that correct?

Late to the ball, again, but in regards to the 'cover' on the camera, I mostly take the stance that if it wasn't durable enough to make it intact to the present, well; I think you sort of have permission to 'recover' the camera body.

 

Red kidskin, for example can be very attractive with black.

 

My Exakta with red kidskin as it was and as it is

My supplier for fine 'covers' seems to have gone dark, but a Google™ will reveal some still in business.

The M4-2 viewfinder flare issue was successfully resolved by Gus Lazzari rebuilding the viewfinder/rangefinder with the anti-glare kit in addition to a complete CLA rebuild. The bright viewfinder together with smooth and now quieter shutter and winder makes it a great all around 28 to 35 camera body.