Help with beginner flash equipment

I’m trying to figure out what flash equipment I need for taking indoor real estate photos. I have a nikon 3100 now, but I’m planning on upgrading to a D600 soon so ideally the equipment should be good for either. I’m looking to have at least 3 wireless off camera flashes to start and looking to spend less than $500 (for new) for everything.

Does anyone have any suggestions for what I need to connect my 3100 with wireless flashes? I’m still learning and don’t know much at all about slaves, transmitters, i-TTL, etc…) so please be as specific as possible.

Ideally this system will work without using my build in camera flash and the off camera flashes can stand on their own or on a stand.

I suggest you really look at your budget, and increase it.

$500 for a set of 3 flashes, RF slaves, stands, etc is cutting it very thin. IOW, I do not know if you can do it for $500. $600 maybe.

But first . . .

I suggest that you go to the strobist site and flicker page and do the classes/lessons for a couple of months, to learn about off camera flash.

$500 is going to be pushing things IF you want to avoid using the on-camera flash and want 3 off-camera flashes.

First of all, for that budget you most likely will NEED to buy used equipment.

You basically have a couple of routes as I see it

1. Use the Nikon Creative Lighting System. This is an i-TTL compatible wireless system. It requires a "commander" on the camera and then CLS-compatible Speedlites off camera. On higher end cameras(including the D600) you can use the pop-up flash as the "commander." On your D3100, you will need either an SB-800 or SU-800 to function as the commander. I'd suggest the SB-800 as it can be used as a flash on its own, while the SU-800 is only a commander and the price is similar. I'm not sure if the current SB-910 can work as a commander or not(I'd guess so, but am too lazy to check). I'd then suggest getting a couple more SB-600s or SB-800s to use as your off-camera flashes. The 800 is more powerful than the 600, but also more expensive.

2. Get yourself several older workhorse flashes like the Vivitar 283/285. Position these around the room, and connect each one to a simple optical slave(Wein or the like). Then, use either the built-in flash or a small on-camera flash to trigger them. You will need to do some experimenting both to determine the correct exposure(unless you budget for a flash meter, although trial and error along with the histogram and just looking at the image means that they aren't as necessary as they are with film) and to get your flash ratios as you want them. One advantage of the Vivitar 285 is that you have control over the manual power while a 283(which is effectively the same flash) can only be set to fire at full power. With this set up, manual mode is the only realistic option-with the way the automatic modes work on these(and other contemporary flashes) my experience is that you will get wildly inconsistent exposure.

3. As an alternative to the above, you can use radio triggers rather than optical. I use the Quantum 4 system, which is old, simple, and kind of bulky but is very reliable. Pocket Wizards are the current "gold standard" but you would blow your $500 just buying enough parts to trigger 3 flashes. There are also various other brands out there that are a fair bit more affordable, but I don't know anything about their reliability. A radio trigger eliminates the need for an on-camera flash. The camera side part either fits in the hot shoe or is connected via a PC sync cable(on your D3100, you will need to spend a few bucks on hot shoe to PC adapter if your triggers aren't set up for hot shoe use).

4. The most complex, but IMO the best, would be to get a full blown studio set up. This is another topic entirely, and studio lighting can be broadly divided into either monolights or pack and head systems. I have a strong preference for pack and heads, although you WILL have wires running all over the place with this system. In broad terms, a monolight is a self-contained that(usually) plugs into the wall for power and contains the flash tube, power circuits(and associated controls), and sync circuitry. With a pack and head system, you have a power pack that plugs into the wall and contains the flash power circuitry and the sync circuit. You then have flash heads that aren't much more than a flash tube, usually a low(er) power tungsten-halogen bulb called the modeling light, and sometimes a fan to keep it all cool. The heads plug into the power pack via a multi-pin connector. With a power pack, you will only need one trigger(optical, triggered by a flash on your camera, radio, or simply a long PC sync cord directly from the pack to the camera). Each individual monolight will need its own trigger-there again usually you will use optical or radio.

Thanks Gary and Ben. I can maybe swing $700 to get started. If I need to I can go with only 2 flashes for now and even go without the stands for now as long as the flashes can stand on their own (on a table top or door). I definitely want to get a couple of flashes and whatever I need to connect them to a Nikon 3100. I've read up on the flash techniques and such but I haven't seen much info on the actual equipment and how it connects to my specific camera (3100) which does not have a built-in flash commander

Ben, option 4 is out for now and I really don't want a wired system because I'd be walking around the house from room to room and that's not practical for my needs.

Would option 1 and 2 both require a flash mounted on the camera? Would my 3100 camera built in flash trigger the other flashes?

For option 3... I would need a radio transmitter connected to the camera with a receiver connected to the main flash (off camera)...and that flash would trigger the other flashes?

Would this work with my camera? a set of PocketWizard Plus X Transceiver 2 Pack ($269 on Amazon). If found this disclaimer on the pocket wizard site but I'm not really sure what it means.

Plus III Operational Considerations:

1) Nikon Cameras with MC-DC2 ports do not provide half-press, or full press output through the MC-DC2 port. This means that any camera using an N-MCDC2-ACC cable won't be able to provide the "half press your remote camera from the camera in your hand" operation when using the shutter release button. This affects the following cameras:

D90

D7000

D5100

D5000

D3100

Note: This does NOT impact half-press or full-press INPUT to the camera, as this works just fine with the N-MCDC2-ACC cable on a remote camera.

If that does work what flashes would be the best to work off of that. So at least one of the flashes should have a built in optical slave.

Aaron,

I should have fleshed out 1 and 2 a bit better.

Basically, the Nikon Creative Lighting System is an extension of the iTTL system that allows you to fire multiple remote-mount flashes with full automatic(TTL) flash control. I understand that it works both through radio and optically(although I'm not overly well versed in the HOW of how it works). Essentially, you can control the relative output of each flash from the camera(or commander), which is important in good lighting. Also, once you've set up the flashes it just sort of keeps working-even if you move the flashes around the exposure stays correct.

A good portion of Nikons with built-in pop-up flashes can control CLS flashes directly, but the 3100 is not among those cameras(the D600 CAN function as a control). That's why I mentioned that you need either an SB-800 or SU-800-both of these allow you to control CLS-compatible speedlights on a camera that supports iTTL(you have to go all the way back to the D1 series and D100 to find cameras that don't do iTTL). In reality, the system is easier to use than explain.

In option 2, the optical triggers I was talking about are effectively "dumb" devices. When they sense a bright light-such as from a flash-and then send a signal to the flash to fire. As far as I know, every flash on the market intended for cameras will fire when you short two contacts. On a hot shoe, it is the center contact on the bottom and the "rails" on the side, while on a PC cord(most better flashes can be fired from a PC cord) it's the center pin and the "barrel." I don't recommend doing this, but with a PC cord you can fire the flash by touching a screwdriver or anything else conductive to the center pin and outside barrel. An optical trigger basically does the equivalent of putting a screwdriver across the terminals when it sees a flash. They're simple and cheap, but not 100% reliable. This probably isn't a big deal to you since you can just take the photo again if one of your flashes doesn't go off. You DO need a flash on the camera, and the pop-up is perfect.

With radio triggers, you GENERALLY need a "transmitter" on your camera and then a "receiver" on each flash. You CAN fire one off-camera flash with a radio trigger and then put optical triggers on all the others, but I probably wouldn't be comfortable doing that(stacking too many things that can have issues). Even cheap radio triggers are pretty reliable, and you're not in a situation where a single failure to fire can ruin the job. The Pocket Wizards are a lot more fully featured(i.e. they can pass iTTL information and not just a "trigger" signal) but you don't necessarily NEED that ability.

As light stands go-since you're going to be working basically only with shoe-mount flashes you can get creative with how you place the flash. I've been known to lay then on tables or even on the floor with the head firing up. In addition, most shoe mount flashes come with a simple table-top stand(if buying used, be sure you get this, although there are cheap generics available). Basically, the hot shoe just just clamps into it and it holds the flash upright. With that said, real light stands are very handy and not that expensive.

You will NEED the light stands, because you will not have the luxury of always having a light support where you need it, and at the height you will need it.

You may need a couple low light stands that will position the flash close to the floor.

And put rubber feet on the stands, so you do not scratch the expensive wood or marble floors.

The D3100 has a hot shoe on the prism, that is where the RF transmitter will go.

I recommend all RF slaves, because you do not know where you will have to put the other flashes.

Optical slaves will not work for all flash locations, and you do not know where you have to put the flashes in your different situations.

As Ben said, shoot full manual, so that you can control each flash to light the scene up as you want it. You will not always want all the flashes firing at full power.

BTW, you will have to buy dozen+ AA NiMH batteries and a GOOD 8 cell charger(s). And that will take a $ BITE out of your budget.

3 flashes x 4 batteries each = 12 batteries.

The RF slave transmitter and receivers will also need batteries, and this will depend on the specific unit.

I’m trying to figure out what flash equipment I need for taking indoor real estate photos.

I think that in the list of "equipment" you should think about how you might need to modify the light from the Flash Units that you purchase .

Interior Real Estate Photography's purpose is generally marketting and sales and as such tends to warrant creative lighting that is more toward having an overall soft and flowing integration and feel, rather than toward the more hard or direct lighting styles - this is usually accommodated by using Flash Modifies, rather than simply choosing to bouncing the Flash Heads beam, especially in circumstances where the interior walls and/or ceilings would throw a Colour Cast.

Additionally, typically many Indoor Real Estate Images will have windows in shot and/or windows allowing sunlight to pentrate the scene, these conditions along with interior lighting which is often powered on, can necessitate some Flash Head Gelling.

WW

Moderator Note: The Nikon Flash System has some differences to the EOS Canon Flash System: accordingly I have moved this thread from Canon EOS Forum to the Nikon Forum.

I think that in the list of "equipment" you should think about how you might need to modify the light from the Flash Units that you purchase .

Great point, and one I was thinking of but failed to mention in all of my rambling.

When I think about some real estate photos I've seen, I often think of there also being a fair bit of soft, indirect light in the room. To hugely oversimplify things, in impromptu people photography indoors, you often really only need to worry about the subject any the area around them. A camera mounted flash bouncing off the ceiling or a neutral wall will often give halfway decent results. Using a bounce card along with a gel to bring the color close to ambient lighting(and using slow sync) can often give quite nice results(the SB-800 has a built in bounce card and shipped with a set of custom-made gels, but taping a generic one of the correct color has worked for a long time).

When you do that, though, you can basically forget what the rest of the room looks like. Outside your image area, you likely have pretty rapid light fall-off and harsh shadows, although there's no reason to even care about them.

Simple modifiers like umbrellas soften the light and throw it everywhere, and they'd probably be my choice for photographing a room. I tend to use soft boxes a lot for my own photography as they offer a lot more control, but they're also significantly more directional than umbrellas.

Going back to that, too, although a lot of folks DO use umbrellas with shoe-mount flashes for people photography(Strobists has shown that it can be done well) IMO it would be pushing things for lighting up a room. That brings us-again-back to using more light than you can get from a flash powered by 4 AAs.

This is my area of expertise. I suggest:

1.Buy several Nikon SB-25 on ebay. They go for fifty bucks each and are highly reliable.

2. Buy something like a Raven RS6 or Smith Victor 6 ft. lightstand for each flash. About $35 each on ebay.

3. Buy some "dumb" triggers on ebay such as Yongnuo. A hundred bucks will easily buy a set.

4. Might want some small soft boxes or diffusers on the flash. Ten to twenty bucks each.

You will be shooting in manual mode but that's no big deal since your subject isn't moving. You don't need the expense of iTTL flash system. It's going to take you awhile to learn how to use any flash effectively, but it will be worth it. I've been using a system of x8 Nikon SB-25 flash plus CyberSync triggers for a decade now. I use them outdoors, mostly on winter nights. They work down to about 30 below zero. They are highly reliable. By some rechargeable batteries to save a bunch of money. I use Ray-o-vac hybrids which have proven very reliable. I own something like 64 of them.

Kent in SD

As said above, radio triggers can be found cheap enough; I've got a pair Yongnuo (YN-622) triggers, and their the YN622TX to control them. Work great with both iTTL and manual flashes - and works loads better than the Nikon CLS systems (both ease of use and reliable triggering the slaves). The Yongnuo flashguns are very cheap too - my experience with them is a mixed bag, and I think you're better off with the fully manual models rather than their iTTL models (but my experience is just with a limited number of products, of course).

Lightstands with a "shoe" for flashes can be found for little money, and allows you also to use umbrellas as diffusers, if needed. Maybe a silly addition, but small tabletop tripods in case you want to place the flashes on the ground, out of sight, are useful too, and feet for the flashes usually have threading for it.

In fact, I think you can get it all for $500 new, if you're OK with using the Chinese brands, and accepting that its durability might be a bit less.

Note: CLS works purely optical (IR), not via radio - which reduces its usefulness at longer distances. The SB5000 changes some of that, but that flashgun is priced rather high.

Cheapest useable setup would be:

3 x YongNuo 560 iii N speedlights @ around $70 US each

1 x YN RF603 trigger transceiver @ $25

3 x portable lighting stands + speedlight adapters @ $45 each.

3 sets of decent NiMh AA cells for YN560s + charger - about $50.

Used flashmeter - minimum $50.

That's a grand total of around $380.

It'll do what you want to light modest sized rooms, but you'll have to learn to use purely manual flash - no TTL automation - which is actually no bad thing. Personally I wouldn't trust i-TTL for multi-light off camera flash. You're much better off controlling flash ratios manually, and not relying on optical triggering.

The YN560 iii speedlights have built-in radio receiver triggers compatible with the RF603.

Lighting stands can probably be got at less than the figure I've quoted, but you don't want to skimp on cheaply made stands that are going to be unstable and fall apart after a few uses.

Cheapest useable setup would be:

3 x YongNuo 560 iii N speedlights @ around $70 US each

1 x YN RF603 trigger transceiver @ $25

3 x portable lighting stands + speedlight adapters @ $45 each.

3 sets of decent NiMh AA cells for YN560s + charger - about $50.

Used flashmeter - minimum $50.

 

That's a grand total of around $380.

It'll do what you want to light modest sized rooms, but you'll have to learn to use purely manual flash - no TTL automation - which is actually no bad thing. Personally I wouldn't trust i-TTL for multi-light off camera flash. You're much better off controlling flash ratios manually, and not relying on optical triggering.

 

The YN560 iii speedlights have built-in radio receiver triggers compatible with the RF603.

 

Lighting stands can probably be got at less than the figure I've quoted, but you don't want to skimp on cheaply made stands that are going to be unstable and fall apart after a few uses.

I think you can skip the flash meter but a good used one for $50 is nice. For that type of shooting I agree you don't need iTTL or CLS. Just manual is simpler.

Hey guys thanks a bunch for the info! This is exactly what I needed. I'm going to read through the thread a couple more times and digest everything.

again thanks!!!

Cheapest useable setup would be:

3 x YongNuo 560 iii N speedlights @ around $70 US each

 

The YN560 iii speedlights have built-in radio receiver triggers compatible with the RF603.

 

Lighting stands can probably be got at less than the figure I've quoted, but you don't want to skimp on cheaply made stands that are going to be unstable and fall apart after a few uses.

The Nikon SB-25 are actually better built and sell for ~$35 each on ebay. You can go fairly cheap (~$30) on stands since this is indoor work and the flash don't weigh much. For a light modifier, might look at shoot-through umbrellas.

I use the SB-25 to light up things like railroad bridges and trains--they do put out quit a bit of light. Another thought if you want more light are something like the little Godox monolights. These are $90 and put out 250ws of power. The little 4AA flash (such as Yonguo and Nikon SB-25 etc.) put out the equivalent of about 80-90ws, so you gain about a stop & half of power. This should be enough when shooting with light modifiers, which generally eat up about a stop of light. The light from monolights also gives much more even and wider coverage than that from the little 4AA flash and their small built in reflectors. Personal experience.

I agree you don't need iTTL flash--they aren't THAT accurate. For this kind of work I still recommend using a flash meter. It will save a LOT of time, especially for a beginner learning lighting ratios. Again, personal experience.

Godox E250 Flash Head E250 B&H Photo Video

Kent in SD

Forgot to add that with the little monolights you can get away with buying only one trigger set (sender & a receiver.) The monolights have a built in optical trigger that instantly fires when it senses another flash going off. You could have one flash fired by a radio trigger and the other two will fire with just the optical trigger. At least, if all the flash are in the same room.

Kent in SD

I use the SB-25 to light up things like railroad bridges and trains--they do put out quit a bit of light.

Kent, out of curiosity do you O.W. Link type photography?

I know we've been crossing paths for many years back to the O Gauge RR forum, and Link remains my favorite photographer both for his subject matter and execution.

I've thought about working with a local tourist road to do some night photography(I don't thinking lighting up a CSX, NS, or Corman train would go over so well and I'd like to get the technique down and build a portfolio before even beginning to approach Corman, much less one of the Class 1s) , but I've been concerned about having the lighting equipment to do it. I have 4800 Watt-Seconds on tap from three separate Norman packs and a bunch of heads, but knowing that Link usually used 50 or so flashbulbs I thought I was still a good way off from being able to do anything. There's also the issue of being able to power a power pack unless I want to haul a generator along also.

In any case, it sounds like you're getting results with shoe mount flashes, and I'd be interested in knowing more.

I've been shooting trains at night for 11 years now. My lighting system depends on how big a scene I'm lighting, and how far. Normally I just use x5 Nikon SB-25, but my whole system is x8 Nikon SB-25 and x8 White Lightning x3200 monolights (1240ws each.) I use Vagabond battery packs for the monolights, one for each flash. Cybersync triggers give me ~200 yard range. I'll add that in winter, snow on the ground doubles the power of the flash and really helps even it out. As for train crews, they don't care. I've photo'd maybe 500 of them with only one complaint, and that person even complains when someone takes a picture in the daytime. :) Just try to stay off any RR property and there is really nothing they can do anyway.

Below shot used x5 Nikon SB-25. I probably could have used one more flash, on the extreme left. Steam engines eat up a LOT of light! It didn't turn out bad though.

Kent in SD

Kent, out of curiosity do you O.W. Link type photography?

 

Yes. One of his posters is hanging in front of me right now ((Mainline on Main Street.) I have a David Plowden railroad photo book personally autographed to me on the shelf to my right (Requiem for Steam.) Plowden was Link's assistant one summer.

Kent in SD

So I decided to go with 3 YONGNUO YN560 IV. I was tempted to go with the Nikon SB-25, but I liked the idea of 560 having the built in optical trigger.

Below is what I've order so far.

• Tenergy TN438 16-Bay Auto-detect AA/AAA NIMH/NICD LCD Built-in IC protection Smart Intelligent Battery Charger With AC Wall Adapter And Car Adapter
  
• YONGNUO YN560 IV Wireless Flash Speedlite Master + Slave Flash + Built-in Trigger System for Canon Nikon Pentax Olympus Fujifilm Panasonic Digital Cameras w/ 3 year protection plan
  
• Yongnuo Professional Flash Trigger RF-603 II N3 for Nikon w/ 2 year protection plan
  

Any recommendation on brands or kits for the stands, mounts, and umbrellas. I've looked on amazon for kits selling all 3 together but them seem almost too cheap. Most are offering the 2 sets (stands, mounts, and umbrella) for $40 to $50. That has to be junk right?

https://www.amazon.com/CowboyStudio-Doulbe-Off-Camera-Swivel-Umbrella/dp/B008S1W19Q/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1507680118&sr=8-1&keywords=flash+umbrella+kit&refinements=p_89:CowboyStudio

Impact Digital Flash Umbrella Mount Kit DFUMK B&H Photo Video

In the short term, I wouldn't mind having a single better quality set (stands, mounts, and umbrella) that will be easy to use, and stand up to some abuse vs multiple cheaper sets.

Thanks again for all your help.... and Kent that steam engine pic is awesome!

Mounts: Neewer (can be spotted including free shipping from China on eBay too.) 2 arrived here, they look sufficiently sturdy, well made & versatile; i.e they come with a spigot adapter with both tripod threads.

Stands: "It depends..." In doubt: Buy used! For indoor real estate use anything should work well enough. And "anything" includes "bad joke of a tripod". Manfrotto Nano seem to have a good reputation though. (I don't own one yet.)

Umbrellas: Take the very cheapest. I'd start with white shoot throughs. I am not reluctant to buy them "against rain" instead of "for photo" and cut of grips. Biggest issue I see with white umbrellas: Keeping them white. Put them into a plastic bag for storage, keep your trunk clean and stick to the inexpensive ones.

I don't know the charger you picked. - I recommend going with Eneloop batteries. - Self discharge of other NiMhs is really annoying.

The Cowboy stuff and the other kits are mostly designed for portraits. You want the white translucent shoot-through style umbrellas. This is what will work for you:

Smith-Victor RS2 Raven 2-Section Light Stand (6.5') 401228 B&H

Impact Swivel Umbrella Adapter CA-108 B&H Photo Video

Phottix Photo Studio Shoot Through Umbrella PH85350 B&H Photo

One of these: Yongnuo RF-602N Wireless Flash Trigger Set for Select RF-602N

Two of these: Yongnuo RF-602RX Wireless Flash Receiver RF-602RX B&H Photo

and go to Walmart and buy x2 8-packs of Ray-o-vac rechargeable hybrid batteries, plus a charger.

Recharge AA 8-Pack Batteries | Rayovac ®

You can use regular alkaline AAA in the flash triggers--they don't use much power.

And, you're all set.

For this kind of photography, you are generally matching flash output to ambient light. The golden rule is: aperture controls flash, shutter controls ambient. I suggest the standard text book on lighting: "Light: Science & Magic." Read that and you'll have 90% of all you need to know. Or, maybe watch some Youtube videos on real estate lighting.

Kent in SD

I'm not convinced that umbrellas or softboxes are going to be all that useful for lighting room interiors. They're big objects that aren't easy to hide or disguise in front of camera, and having all your lights behind the camera will give a very "flat" effect with falloff toward the background.

The usual way to light large rooms is to bounce light off the ceiling/walls, or set up lights outside a window, in a doorway, alcove, etc. or to disguise small flashes in existing light-fittings (table or standard lamps or ceiling fittings). None of these "tricks" require a softbox or brolly. However, having one or two to hand won't hurt - they're cheap enough.

I'd advise against shoot-through brollies. The light they produce is difficult to control, since it's thrown out in all directions. These things - softbox brollies - are much better IMO. They erect as fast as a brolly, and give the same light as a softbox. Ideal for a quick portable lighting rig.

BTW. I'm not suggesting that particular make or supplier. That link's just to show the style of the thing.

Kent. I entirely agree about SB-25s. I have 5 of them myself. However I thought the OP might have a bit of trouble sourcing 3 of them at once, and at a sensible price. Plus they'd need additional radio triggers, and I was impressed with the build quality of a YN560 iii. I don't think the OP will be disappointed with the YongNuos.

 

Kent. I entirely agree about SB-25s. I have 5 of them myself. However I thought the OP might have a bit of trouble sourcing 3 of them at once, and at a sensible price. Plus they'd need additional radio triggers, and I was impressed with the build quality of a YN560 iii. I don't think the OP will be disappointed with the YongNuos.

Currently over 12 SB-25 for sale ebay Buy It Now $19 to $35. The sheer number of them for sale testifies to their reliability, I think.

Kent in SD