Where are all the women?

<p><em>"It's sad and rather frustrating that basic consideration, thoughtfulness, and respect towards others are denigrated by some as being "political correctness"."</em></p>

<p>But it should not be surprising, because "political correctness" has never meant anything but precisely that. It is what people call basic consideration, thoughtfulness, and respect towards others when they don't feel like having or showing these things.</p>

<p>I find that the generalizations about women on this thread, even when meant to be complimentary in their explanations of why they don't participate more (e.g. women are not gearheads), strike me as stereotyped, patronizing and, on balance, unhelpful to the goal of being more inclusive.</p>

 

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<p>Okay, Kayam, we're into the 8th page of responses with a whole lot of arguing over the subject, and very few women bothering to get into it. That alone should speak volumes.</p>

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<p>Oh well. I tried. Whether this discussion will change anyone else's behavior around here or not, I'll make more of an effort to not be unwelcoming. Hopefully that's a net positive.</p>

 

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<p>I'm also more tolerant of the crap I've seen here over the years, most of the men are pretty much gentlemen, but there are a few who see a woman's name on a post and launch into a condescending lecture. I have just walked away from this site for months at a time because of it.</p>

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<p>Thanks for coming back.</p>

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<p>Maybe you are right and people have indeed said things that were "stereotyped, patronizing and, on balance, unhelpful...". Maybe you will build on the judgement you have passed and say things of the kind that should be said. We need to be taught. Teach by example, please.</p>

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<p><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=4458742">Jennifer Spencer</a> <a href="../member-status-icons"><img title="Subscriber" src="../v3graphics/member-status-icons/sub3.gif" alt="" /></a>, Nov 17, 2010; 04:59 p.m. The only one of Rebecca's quotes that really bothered me was:<br /> <em>Some just like how cute some cameras look and buy them as a fashion accessory.</em></p>

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<p><br />Sorry, but this did happen to me. A photographer friend was absolutely in love with my Minolta Repo S, and so after telling her its quirks (she was used to SLR cameras), I made a gift of it to her. She was more interested in its looks than if it was a good shooter. To her credit, she used it. More than once I wished I had it back, it's a hard camera to find in good working condition.</p>

<p>Um - I didn't say it doesn't happen. Did you even read the rest of my post?</p>

<p>Mark, I have known men to buy cameras -- and wrist watches and electric toasters and so on -- based only on appearance, function be damned. This is a neither-here-nor-there line of argument.</p>

<p>Jennifer, without suggesting that that is what happened here, I'll say that we must live with the reality that many posters now do not read earlier posts carefully, that some do not read earlier posts at all, and that the true champions pay no attention even to the first post in a thread.</p>

<p>There's no reason to read posts unless we can triangulate the words with portfolios. It's fair and sensible to evaluate each of us by our posted images more than by our words. I think that if portfolios were required for posting we'd see more participation by women.</p>

<p>Earlier someone asked how hobbies could reflect boredom. That's an easy one. If people had full lives they wouldn't divide them into hobbies and not-hobbies. </p>

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<p>the washing machine and the various other thing they feel us men are not very good at?</p>

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<p>Us Men? Speak for yourself. Don't hide behind other men. My late brother-in-law would bumble around with a mop and pail asking my sister how to use them, he a mechanical engineer who at that time was busy jacking up a house off its foundation. He could fix a washing machine although I never saw him loading clothes into one. (Yes, he died of natural causes, and no, he didn't buy my sister the mop and pail for her birthday). Why does one college graduate get the mop and pail and the other a pass on housework? Because the women would rather not have to live through whining and a tantrum, and so they take the lesser punishment of even folding clothes to not hear it?</p>

<p>I'm looking at my screen now down below at a lovely portrait of a young women photographed by Les Berkley. (<a href="../photo/9742407">http://www.photo.net/photo/9742407</a>) I hope her future husband has the self-respect to master a washing machine, woolite and launder his own clothes. If one isn't generally considered to be all that good at using a washing machine then how is it one mastered a camera, let alone a darkroom where there are also liquids to be measured, timing to be considered? The answer is that you loved the camera enough to do so and there is something else you don't love enough, that being TRUTH. Pull up your potty pants and face IT: You are selfish and lazy. That's all. And that some women laugh at selfish and lazy, bless them. Ooops, the dryer went off. Gotta go. Wish I could afford a wife, ah, I mean, find someone to be with. But I'm not going to post to photo.net with a "Hey, where all da women at?", and then back peddle and say I really meant something else. I know where the women are at: at home doing laundry. What is that expression, Mommy to Army to Me?</p>

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<p ><a name="00XiKZ"></a><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=1154645">John Kelly</a> <a href="../member-status-icons"><img title="Subscriber" src="../v3graphics/member-status-icons/sub7.gif" alt="" /><img title="Frequent poster" src="../v3graphics/member-status-icons/3rolls.gif" alt="" /></a>, Nov 19, 2010; 11:27 p.m.</p>

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<p>There's no reason to read posts unless we can triangulate the words with portfolios. It's fair and sensible to evaluate each of us by our posted images more than by our words. I think that if portfolios were required for posting we'd see more participation by women.</p>

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<p>John, I agree. I often click the link for the poster so I can check out his or her gallery. If there's a gallery and the person seems like someone who is likely to have a photo history, I'll Google their name, so important to me are their pictures to connect to their words. The pictures tell me something about the person. If they're making a technical statement about better shooting, their gallery may or may not support their credibility. Those that don't post turn me off more than those that post not so good portfolios. Some may have reason not to post, but often it's just cowardice, I believe. (OK I've ducked - fire away). That's unfortunate. Sometimes someone posts something I don't agree with. Then I look at their portfolio and I'm so impressed by their work I re-evaluate my opinion and take their statement more seriously.</p>

<p>I'm curious how others, both men and women, handle this? Maybe I should start another thread. I think I will. Stay tuned.</p>

 

<p>"Some may have reason not to post, but often it's just cowardice, I believe."</p>

<p>Cowardice? Maybe, but probably more often laziness, or else no particular reason to post photos. You speak of galleries as if they are proof of being. Having a gallery is, alas, not a requirement of membership here.</p>

<p>"You talk big. Let's see what you can do" is perhaps valid. But often the arguments here are such as can be resolved in words alone. Not wise to have a single rule for everyone and everything and every time.</p>

<p>Of all the conversations I've had with other photographers ( of both genders ) the subject of "nipple lighting" has never come up. Some groups of men are misogynistic, others are not. Some groups of women are men-haters, others are not. I personally cannot bear to hear someone running down the opposite sex, especially after an ale or three. Both men and women do this...looks like we're not so different after all. Back to the nipple thing, maybe we should ask Hataiiia Hataiiia for that lighting query. I'm sure we'd all benefit from HER response.</p>

<p>Don't worry Charles I do plenty of washing, hoovering, washing floors, cooking, taking my smallest daughter to school. But I don't post on internet forums that someone is selfish and lazy.</p>

<p>Sorry Stuart, I was kinda joking around, and kinda frustrated because here, most men don't help the way you do.</p>

<p>There is a hostility to women this forum. The founder of photo.net, Philip Greenspun, used "dickless yuppie" for people he didn't like, in one of the earliest photo.net teaching articles. Many on photo.net have followed in using this charming expression, probably not thinking of women, not thinking of them at all. Just as if they didn't exist. To me, that's hostility.</p>

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<p>One reason I don't comment much here is because I don't have photos posted here. The interface is different than other fora and I haven't bothered to look at it more. Also, I shoot mainly film and I don't scan most of it. I wish I had time to, but it takes 2 hands to do so and my 9 month old is usually in one arm or needing attention of some type. My hubby is off playing soldier, so I'm stuck.<br>

I personally don't really care to discuss all the nitty, gritty details of gear and technical stuff though I do learn about it and understand it. How does the photo look? Who cares (seriously) if a lens is slightly fuzzy at 1000x magnification when you're only blowing up to 10x? <br>

And I know that is an oversimplification and somewhat non-PC of me to say that that's typical of men, but that's what I've seen. I've also encountered much more misogynistic comments from men IRL in the local camera club. On the web, I let them roll off a little more easily because people tend to hide behind their keyboards somewhat.</p>

<p>May I chime in for a moment, as a woman. I have been a member of Photo net for many years. I used to contribute to this sub forum, but found it a little macho at times which eroded my enjoyment somewhat. The Wedding forum on the other hand seems to have an even spread of male and female contributors, and in my observation some immensely technical women are members. I consider myself technical also. <br /><br />A few weeks ago I read a thread in this forum asking why there seem to be few female photographers here. The responses from the male contingent were many and varied. I was genuinely appalled by some of the views aired. That is when I made the decision never to financially contribute to my Photo net membership again, though I do still read the Wedding forum and I hope that what I say is helpful to the posters there.<br /><br />I am not saying that Photo net is hostile to women. Overwhelmingly it is not, but some of the comments I've seen are not acceptable. Why is that? Only in recent history have women been afforded the choices and rights that our male counterparts enjoy. I know it must be very difficult for a man to appreciate what it's like to be a woman both socially and in the workplace. I remember a time, not so many years ago, before I decided to become self-employed, when it was considered perfectly okay for whichever institution employed women to impose contractual terms which would be anathema to a man, and morally repugnant a few years later. I have spent my female existence knowing that in many professional and social situations I may be judged and patronised according to my gender. And at times I have been attacked for having an appreciation of all things technical, on the grounds that this is not acceptable female behaviour. I've given up on car forums, but by and large photography forums are welcoming to women.<br /><br />Some of my dearest, closest friends are male, and there are so many wonderful men here on Photo net who selflessly share their knowledge with all. But for the reasons I have already discussed there is and always will be a contingent who make comments which, for the reasons I have outlined, can and will genuinely upset a female viewer. No man can possibly appreciate the insidious and chronic sexism that most women have been subject to throughout their lives. This is not something I can easily put into words, but at best it can be irritating and at worst it can be devastating. Now I am not saying that extreme exists in any of these fora. But some of the comments I've seen have made me angry at times as the perception of women appears distorted and unhealthy.</p>

<p>I occasionally teach photography, and I remember a friend suggesting that his son (who apparently wants to be a photographer) take some lessons from me. The response was 'no way, I'm not interested in some woman showing me how to take pictures of flowers'. Clearly the little cretin hadn't even bothered to look at my website or read my Blog. What hope have we if this kind of thinking still persists?</p>

<p>Another reason why there aren't many female forum members is because, having finished our day's employment, we come home to a mountain of washing, cooking, domestic paperwork, and 100 other chores. There are of course exceptions but I think it's true that the majority of male partners will be down the hallway tinkering on the computer while all this is going on. Would their wife or daughter be welcome to join them? Probably not - it's man's stuff after all. Perhaps some girls fail to develop a techie brain for this very reason.</p>

 

<p>In my last post I used the word cowardice for people who don't post pictures. It's been bothering me. I should not have used that word as it's offensive and unfair. I apologize to everyone who I offended. Alan.</p>

 

<p>Lindsay, your "chimes" take me back to the 1970s. Do you really expect fundamental change to come so soon? The articulation of the imbalance is not even half a century old.</p>

<p>Are you saying you need a little more time to 'evolve'? Fine (-:</p>

<p>I think great strides have been made, but there's some way to go. I wouldn't want to wipe out the fundamental differences between the genders, but I do hope for some further adjustments in how 'women and technology' are viewed.</p>

<p>I was talking far more recently than the 1970s, I'm sorry to say.</p>



<p>It could have something to do with the lack of a centralised home here. It makes the forums feel, well, less homey. But I've only been here a short while so I could be wrong.</p>

<p>Great strides <em>have</em> been made: there are things which today's women take for granted of which their mothers could not have dreamt. In the last few years, though, I have noticed what can only be called a sort of regression. Women's make-up, a general pursuit of daintiness, that sort of thing.</p>

<p>What things do we 'take for granted' Mukul?</p>

<p>Makeup? Daintiness? I'm not sure what you mean. Does it offend you? Or do you think it's generally counter-productive in terms of 'being taken seriously'? You know it is possible to wear makeup, appear feminine, and understand technology. I'd hate to think that in order to be viewed as 'competent' that I'd have to grow a penis ....</p>

<p> They say Golf teaches you all the lessons you need to know.. One thing I have noticed is that a Man who is a very bad golfer will always offer poor advice to a Women. </p>

<p>Okay folks, I think we've reached the end of "polite discourse" here and have dwindled down into "bickering".</p>

<p>Where are the women? As we have seen from this thread, there may be any number reasons why there are (or have been historically) fewer women than men on photo.net. Some of the reasons are understandable and logical, some are sadly not. But the point is that both men and women should feel as welcome as possible on a site like this one. There is a difference between the small humor that most all of humanity enjoys and comments that make someone feel lessened for having read them. That line won't be the same for everyone of course, but we should strive to meet in the middle as we should do in most every area of life when interacting with those who do not think exactly the same way that we do.</p>

<p>That having been said, as with any other problem on the site, anyone who feels as though their sex (or the opposite one) is being disparaged or mocked unfairly should report the situation to me or to a moderator as soon as they see it. Holding on to small slights until they turn into larger anger doesn't help anyone and it surely doesn't help the site improve in any fashion</p>

<p>Thank you all for playing. Have a nice weekend and shoot some photos. I'm going to shovel snow off of my sidewalk.</p>