Moderator Note: Supportive/Positive Contributions and Constructive Criticism ONLY

<p>Brain: I got a negative email 2 months ago about using a 15mm VC lens on my RD-1/s; an image I posted on the Leica board. I remember those days; less than 60 days ago! :)</p>

<p>Tony --</p>

<p> Thanks for your Moderator Note. I appreciate your encouragement of positive and respectful comments on this forum.</p>

<p> I visit this forum because I enjoy Leicas and rangefinders. For what it's worth, I own and use several rangefinder cameras (Leica M2, Canon P, Canon L1, Olympus 35SP, Kodak Signet 35) and various Leica M and Canon and Nikkor LTM lenses, as well as a couple of old SLRs (Nikon F, Canon FT-QL) and a digital camera (Canon G5). While I've been taking pictures for many years, I've never had any formal training. I'm an amateur rather than a professional, and don't flatter myself as being especially talented. I just like taking pictures, and I enjoy rangefinders in general and Leicas in particular. It's nice to be able to share knowledge and experience with other photographers who are interested in some of the same things.</p>

<p> While the great majority of postings on this forum are positive, and interesting, I have occasionally seen some that didn't fit that description. Most of the negative ones have been directed at other people, rather than at me personally, but I have sometimes seen postings directed at other people that struck me as going outside the bounds of vigorous discussion, and that made me either upset or angry. I don't get too fussed by the DSLR users deriding film RF cameras, or the harsh critiques of the M8, or even the acerbic comments about Leica users having too much money and too little talent as photographers. What does bother me, though, are harsh and dismissive rejections of reasonable though naive inquiries by newcomers, offensive putdowns by advocates of one particular style of photography of photographers who prefer other styles, comments casting aspersions on the talents of other photographers, or comments expressing racial, religious or ethnic animus. I'm not talking about vigorous discussion of issues or images, but rather about personal attacks on other participants by trolls who seem to feel that they can only build themselves up by tearing other people down. That gets old fast.</p>

<p>I am glad to see your comments addressing this issue in a positive and constructive way. I have kept coming back to this forum over time, and I hope that others will as well.</p>

<p> <br>

 <br>

Brian  I post this 15mm image shot with a RD-1 about 2 months ago; when another said the 15mm was garbage. Knocking non Leica lenses not gone at all.<br>

 <br>

<img src="http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y148/ektar/15mm%20VC%20lens/_EPS7467roofone250secondiso200F8.jpg?t=1242497551" alt="" width="640" height="426" /></p>

<p>Finally, there's light at the end of the tunnel.<br /> Here're my suggestions if you want to keep this forum healthy:</p>

<ol>

<li>Be more aggressive in closing non-paying accounts that are full of crappy and caustic remarks and ban those email addresses. Those trash are the ones that made me leave this forum. I have better use of my time than to mingle with trash! </li>

<li>May be one should join the Leica Forum over at (http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/) to see how different types of enthusiasts can exist in one website.</li>

<li>Perhaps a finer grain break up of the forum might help: Leica (film bodies) and Leica Digital. If you didn't already realize this: there's certainly a different culture between the two.</li>

<li>Moderator needs to moderate! I do not see that in this forum --- it's total anarchy. Please join the Nikon forum and see for yourself. It is nicely moderated.If moderator has no resources to moderate, get more moderators. </li>

</ol>

<p>O.K., I've heard enough. RayRay, lock the door :-P</p>

<p >Yep, it’s time to drive the Clanton’s and McLaury’s out of town, or, bury their miserable bodies on Boot Hill. I’m in...cough,cough,spit,cough,spit.</p>

<p >“Those trash are the ones that made me leave this Forum. I have better use of my time than to mingle with trash!”</p>

Kelly- let me just say that it is much tamer than it was 5 years ago. I remember someone posting a picture of his kid using his new Leica and getting the PLUG quoted to him by 10 different members with lots of cursing mixed in. And then there was Jay.

 

Someone is always going to Knock something. If you do not have any good points, downgrade your competitors good points (Peter in B.C.). Someone that can't judge quality for themselves will sign up to a Brand name and then swear by it. It's easier than actually thinking. "Brain's, turns out- YOU DON'T NEED ONE!" (Bob the Blob).

<blockquote>

<p>Without some spirited discussions, the place will become a mutual hair combing society.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I seriously doubt that any leica forum anywhere will ever be without spirited discussion. But anyone who equates "spirited discussion" with "acting like a d--k" can be shown the door. Yes, we're all adults here. And while many like to use that phrase to mean "crybabies not welcome" it is more accurate to say that it means "Act like an adult and learn to carry on a reasonable debate without namecalling or childish attacks."</p>

<p>I fail to see how that is bad advice for anyone.</p>

<p><strong>Tony Rowlett and Josh Root: </strong></p>

<p>Hear hear!</p>

<p>Those who feel they are being bullied can email a compaint to the moderator of that forum. All non-civil responses will not be posted on that forum by that moderator. It's that simple.</p>

<p>There are lots of way to look at this. I enjoy participating in forum discussion and being part of this community, and I had to eat humble pie and more than once. I thought I knew a lot after 40 years of photography, but soon discovered that I didn't and any inaccuracies were usually met with merciless criticism, which I admit hurt, and made me feel devalued. There are polite ways to say "no, you're wrong", like "well, another way to look at it is...". But the enlightened amongst us would know that.<br>

The only residual disappointment for me is feeling the disrespect shown to myself and others who have enjoyed a lifetime with film and are now struggling with the cost and complexities of digital. We are made to feel less worthy of issuing an opinion if we grew up in the 50s and 60s when a photographer was seen as an artist and even a magician, and for whose services people paid handsomely. I keenly feel my heritage from both my grandfather and great grandfather running a portrait studio and landscape photography business using 8x10's and being allowed to sit in a corner to watch them at work. My only wish was that they could have passed the business on to me. Now I get to visit their heritage of glass negatives in our National Archives and a couple of museums. But few appreciate what went into their work. People new to photography, having only started with digital, just don't get it.<br>

There was a post here the other day of someone who took 400 digital shots of his kids birthday party over a two hour period, and he wanted a workflow solution. It stunned me. I went out the other day for an entire afternoon to take some shots with film of lovely sandstone buildings in the pm sun. Three hours later, I had my work done...I took 7 exposures. It will be another two to three weeks when I have used up the roll. Is that equally unbelievable to the current generation? Probably.<br>

So I am with Tony and Josh in this. The issue is about respect or the lack of, for others' opinions.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Without some spirited discussions, the place will become a mutual hair combing society. The only sounds to be heard will be the gentle clinking of knitting needles.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>So, Leica Forums are meant to be a place for deep smashing of bones and plucking of guts? I am sure that's why Photo.net's Leica forum is so famous world wide. Those who own new Leicas and are enjoying their equipment seemed to be sticking with the Leica Forum in Germany and avoiding this one. That much I know.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Those who feel they are being bullied can email a compaint to the moderator of that forum.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Do you guys see what I mean now? So, you intentionally seek to bully others in this forum?</p>

<p>Yes, this forum is better than 5 years ago when hooligans and orcs were swarming the place. However, it is still not clean ... yet ... some remnants remain.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Why so much anger?</p>

<p >The real problem............</p>

<p > </p>

<p >Is simple to understand... is the claimed superiority, by some, that the Leica camera is the ultimate photographic tool. All other cams fall far short of this ultimate tool, which is not just a cam but possesses a soul, which passes on to users special magical photographic abilities. The proof being that HCB and others used it. Now you don’t get that sort of arrogance from Nikon or Canon users do you. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >Therefore, logic would dictate that those superiority assertions would be challenged by users of other cams. Sort of how the world works...so,cool it people.</p>

<p >It’s really that simple to understand. </p>

<p>So... let me understand. I am welcome to participate in this forum because I own a IIIC, but it is best not to mention that most of my work is shot with an M8?</p>

<p>Roberto,<br>

No admin or moderator has said anything on this thread that would support your statement. All rangfinders, digital or film, are welcome on this forum.</p>

<p>How do you say it in English I think.... "my tongue was in my cheek"<br>

Sorry if I offended you with a small jest. I guess that was part of the discussion, was it not?<br>

English is not my first language and for that I apologize also.</p>

<p>Let me define one thing that "positive criticism" is. It is analytical. It is free of cheap snide asides ("Just like Uncle Charlie trying to shoot the Sunday school picnic") and it is, above all, something you can engage. That is, it is something you can discuss and debate intelligently. "Critiques" like the following are not only not "positive criticism" but also useless because they cannot be intelligently discussed:</p>

<p>"It's just a snapshot."</p>

<p>"Who cares about this image?"</p>

<p>"That's a terrible photograph."</p>

<p>"Yer pathetic."</p>

<p>"There no point of you arguing with people" (directed at the target of the attacks).</p>

<p>How do you respond to "critiques" like this? All you can say is "Yes," or "No." Or, "But it was shot in New York / Paris / Rome." ("Well, that's different.") I'm joking about the last, of course. Sort of.</p>

<p>In short, "positive criticism" is something that is logical as well as civil.</p>

<p>Having said this, I have to add that there are appropriate and inappropriate places for extensive "positive criticism" or discussion of an image or a comment. One inappropriate place is something like Photo of the Week. Why? Because such a thread normally has a larger number of participants, all limited to posting a single image, and extended discussion of one image or comment would divert attention away from everyone else, thus going against the purpose of the thread. If a person posts a thread asking for a critique it would be different.</p>

<p>But "positive criticism" need not be extensive. It most cases it would probably be a short statement. For example to the person who says that the Color Heliar 15/4.5 is a bad lens, one could politely point out that is has received good reviews, including from <em>Leica Photography</em> (if I recall correctly) and is used by professional photographers like Ted Grant.</p>

<p>Finally, there is no point in engaging bullies in civil discourse. This is to say there is no point in engaging them at all. Rather, it is best to erase whatever they say and get rid of them. On Flickr you simply edit them out and block them, and if they get too many blocks they are likely to be deleted from the website. Here you contact your friendly neighborhood moderator, which takes longer, but in the long run may be more effective in keeping bullies off the website.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>How do you say it in English I think.... "my tongue was in my cheek"<br /> Sorry if I offended you with a small jest.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>That's fine. I just didn't want anyone to be confused.</p>

<p>I guess I have just not seen what you guys have seen, or I'm stinking dense or blow off nonsense as nonsense.</p>

<p>Alex, respectfully, I feel that your list 1 thru 3 is ok, while probably a rather inarticulate opinion, a valid opinion none the less. I never saw your number 4 here.</p>

<p>My opinion of the thread is that it's a shame us Leica and RF lovers can't get a thread this long ABOUT ACTUAL PHOTOGRAPHY! YES I was shouting.</p>

<p>Don't worry Michael, its the same on the Nikon or Canon forums if you mention that you think earlier models with manual lenses take better photographs than the lastest digitals. I have the battle scars to prove it.<br>

Mostly it boils down to this: If you admit to owning Leica gear it either intimidates or puzzles people who don't understand. But in truth, today, its cheaper doing that with carefully selected used Leica gear, than shelling out for the quality equivalent digital DSLR and say three top lenses. This fact reflects on those who made their purchase decision and now that the cost difference is largely out of the argument, it boils down to the old film vs digital argument. It polarises people and once a person has publically adopted a position, its hard for them to retreat. And so we come full circle in the argument. Then it starts again, but on another level of unpleasantness.<br>

Allen touched on it, but its more subtle. Leica people are not arrogant about the quality of their gear. But they do see a difference and they like to talk about it. And why not? But not all Leica gear is better than the rest. Everyone knows that. And the prices do drop, unlike what some would say. But just by a whole lot less. We should be encouraging Leica owners to do justice to their gear, not knocking them. The whole "aura" thing about Leica is emotional and subjective. We need to let people enjoy their purchase decisions. The price you pay for gear does not translate into art quality images, unless you are really really good. And not many of us are.<br>

Have a look at the editors choice pics today for example...images that I would never expect to emulate. Most of the cameras used are average, and often at the cheap end. There is also a lot of PS in them. But the eye of the photographers was where it mattered. And that's something a lot don't like to admit. After 40 years I still don't "see" a potential image as easily as some. I accept that, but I try, and thats what matters.<br>

So lets see some posts like "Hey I took this shot with a Summi 50. Would it have been better to go with the 35?"</p>

 

<p>reading all these comments one wonders if there really is such a big problem.</p>

<p>"Leica people are not arrogant about the quality of their gear. But they do see a difference and they like to talk about it"</p>

<p>that's why there is a dedicated forum. I'm not a gearhead myself but then you don't have to be a descendent of Oskar to discuss Leica's do you? The problem isn't Leica or any other RF. Last year I started out in the Street and Doc forum and was actually warned off beforehand by a few people because the regulars there were supposed to be a touchy and arrogant lot. Actually I found the opposite to be true.</p>

<p>The point is merely this. Images are easily created and traditionally hard to correct. In this case however it's a mod who brings the problem to the table and that makes a difference. And yet the solution is simple. If there is a problem deal with it. I rather suspect though that those who are deemed to be the problem are not to be found anywhere near this thread. They never are.</p>

<p>The problem, and I see this with photographers all the time, is a lack of sense-of-humor and playfulness. Most photographers seem to behave as if photography akin to finding a cure for cancer. It's not, not even close, and Leica users seem to be especially prone to this exaggerated self-importance mindset. It's okay to enjoy photography and love your Leicas, but when this overly serious enthusiasm becomes nauseating to readers it's only natural to try to add a little balance to the discussion, but it sounds like Leica users want to try to insulate themselves from any semblance of reality so they can all just support each others delusions, without having their bubble burst. JMO.</p>

<p>I completely support the remarks of the moderator. Unfortunately, the sort of behavior that has been identified is widespread in internet forums of all sorts.</p>

<p>I've written this before, but here goes again:</p>

<p>If there was a forum about wooden canoes, what would be the point of stating there that your motor boat is faster and better than a wooden canoe? Or visiting a bicycle forum and and slamming everyone there for riding bicycles because you know your motorcycle is so much more modern and so much faster? Or arguing on a Lexus forum that your Mercedes is just sooo superior?</p>

<p>What is the point of doing that?</p>

<p>We've seen plenty of that behaviour here over the years and I find it no surprise that it turns people away from using this forum. If you are sure that everyone here is a "silly Leica fan boy" just keep moving until you find a forum that suits you. Go there and talk about your favorite camera. Your on-line existence will be lots more fun for everyone.</p>

<p>There is no gain for anyone from tearing down other's fun by trying to enforce your version of the truth or reality upon the poor suckers who are having fun while being so, so wrong in your mind.</p>

<p>Henry A, thank you for that. Well said.</p>

<p>The great thing is that anyone with a Kiev or a Zori has the same rights and privileges as the person with an M8. </p>

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