Archival Characteristics of the Ilford Black & White RC coated paper Mpix uses?

Would anyone happen to know what the archival rating for this paper is? I've

checked around and haven't come up with anything. I've found ratings for the

Fuji Crystal Archive and the heavier Kodak papers, but nothing on RC paper.

 

Thanks,

 

D.

Light sensitive color papers like Fuji Crystal Archive are either resin coated paper or polyester base. It's reasonable to anticipate similar archival characteristics for properly processed b&w RC paper.

I'd start by doing a residual hypo test on a processed sheet from mpix.com. Processing is as much an issue as the paper, I presume there's financial pressure to keep the wash times down.

 

Certainly, rewashing and toning the print would make it more archival.

 

I think the "Archival" B&W folks don't really trust RC papers yet. There were certainly some disasters with the RC papers from 30-40 years ago.

Google Henry Wilhelm, the US tester who has looked at a lot of these questions. Not

sure he has rated this particular paper. Who (what) is Mpix, a pro lab? Wilhelm

aparently thinks highly (comparatively speaking) of Fuji Crystal Archive for colour

prints (or B&W prints, where you are not too worried about the tone). This is what I

am presently using for some of my digitally captured B&W work for sale in my gallery.

However, I personally prefer darkroom production with B&W papers.

 

You are best to request a toner (selenium, other) treatment if you are looking for best

"archival" qualities, but not all B&W papers take to toners in the same way. Probably

the best ultimate solution is to do your own processing.

 

Not too sure this answers your question.

Ctein conducted tests which were published in PhotoTechnics magazine several years ago. He found that a final Agfa Sistan bath added substantially to the longevity of RC prints. Something to think about.

Much depends on the process. Is this an RA-4 process? If it is, it has about the same longevity as any other RA-4 process print. That's because, color or B&W, the image is dyes: these are not silver gelatin prints; they are really C-prints. If the exposure source is a Lightjet or Chromira or similar laser or LED source, there's a high probability that the paper is processed on an RA-4 line.

 

Ilford did release in the past year or so a fiber based conventional process (as in, say, Dektol) B&W paper designed to be exposed with a Lightjet or Chromira printer and processed on a Dektol line. These prints are silver gelatin prints. They should have the same longevity as classical silver gelatin prints as made since the 1920s if processed properly. Than again, the cost of these prints is 3-5x that of RA-4 prints; the customers should get something for that extra money, yes?

they have an RC and a fiber version of that paper. the rc can be processed in machines using 2000RT or polymax RT, so it's reasonable to assume that it will be sorta like MGIV. RC papers are actually used in archival settings--they're accepted into preservation survey programs and the like, and have been for about 25 years or so now. The c-prints haven't made it yet, but some pigmented inkjets have. the problem with assuming that c-prints will be the same as b/w rc is the way the emulsion (silver halide) can be attacked in a b/w print and the way the dyes can fade in a c-print--it's not the same kind of deterioration. I would do as John Shriver suggested--get a print made and do an HT2 test on it, or maybe a better way would be to soak it for a few minutes in water, and then selenium tone (try 1:9 or stronger). If it isn't processed right, it will stain. If it is--the toning will only help it.

Donald, were Ctein's comments related to B&W RC papers? Do you remember the

issue number? Does anyone know if the Agfa Sistan product is being produced by

another? Thanks.

Hi, Arthur! As I recall, the article was related soley to B&W RC papers; however, I won't stake my life on it. I will see if I can locate the article within several days. Bear with me, please. Sistan is being produced by another manufacturer, and a little homework should yield who that is.

mpix.com is the online service of Miller's, a pro lab. They run a Lightjet with Ilford's true silver B&W paper designed for LED/Laser exposure (short time). Ilford promptly released this paper when Kodak exited the B&W paper market.

 

mpix.com used to use the Kodak B&W paper. I think the Ilford paper looks a bit better, but I haven't done a proper A/B test. (I still have some files I had printed on the Kodak paper.)

 

I've been very happy with everything they have done for me. I'm sure that they process the B&W responsibly, but I don't know that they do it to archival standards. For instance, it doesn't seem likely that they use a two-bath fixer method. Of course, I think two-bath fixer is more cost-effective, but it adds a processing step, and I don't know how many tanks their machine accommodates.

 

My only complaint about Millers is that it's all E-surface paper, and I REALLY prefer glossy. But in the wedding and portrait market (which is the other half of their business, using the same Lightjets), E-surface apparently rules.

 

I am very happy that they offer this true B&W paper, and that Ilford released a replacement for Kodak's discontinued product.

Hi Donald,

 

Thanks for mentioning Agfa Sistan for archival treatment. I googled it and came up

with an article from 2005 by a Mr. Ed Biffaloe on "Archival Processing of prints". It is I

think a Freestyle company article (www.unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Archival/

archival.html). Apparently Fuji makes a similar thiocyanate product which fixes

remaining silver and I presume this must still be available. I quote from his article:

 

 

"Fuji makes a similar product called AG Guard, which is used to treat prints after

washing. Thomas Wollstein has corresponded with Agfa regarding Sistan, and tells us

that Sistan contains potassium thiocyanate and a wetting agent--it works by

converting oxidized silver ions in the emulsion to a stable, insoluble salt.? Robert

Chapman states that Sistan ?...precipitates any silver ion formed by oxidation in the

form of silver thiocyanate (AgSCN). Silver Thiocyanate is colorless and virtually light-

insensitive.?? But Sistan only works as long as the thiocyanate stays in the emulsion,

so Agfa recommends that Sistan be used as a final treatment, after washing and

before drying--if it is washed out, archival benefits are probably lost."

Sorry, it is Mr. Ed Buffaloe.

Arthur: The Fuji product is no longer available, but I am 96% confident that the Sistan is currently available. I remember seeing it for sale just several months ago.

Arthur: Here is where I saw the Sistan for sale: http://www.digitaltruth.com/store/agfa.html

Donald, my hat bowed to you. Many thanks. Arthur

My prints on Ilfospeed RC paper made around 1977-79 are

identical to-day as they were then.

Thanks to everyone who took the time to respond. I really appreciate it. I have taken in a lot of information on this subject over the past few days or so and what I've come to find is basically what Mr. Zdaniewski has also stated here.

 

With the antioxidants used in today's RC papers and the solutions to early problems that caused cracking in resin coated papers (due to out-gassing of certain chemicals which are no longer in use) if they were kept framed behind glass that these papers can last as long as fiber based materials in some cases if well cared for, and in some high humidity areas they have outlasted fiber based paper prints in conditions that are less than ideal.

 

I have also learned that it is just now coming to light that there may be a problem with the selenium toning process. I don't fully understand the chemical process involved but the result is a print that is taking on a highly-silver colored surface where presumably the silver content of the photograph is rising to the top and obscuring the image.

 

I'm no longer worried about the RC paper used today for printing as I was. It appears there has been a lot of mis-information spread about RC paper because of it's less than successful beginnings that just aren't true with today's RC paper.

 

Thanks again,

 

D.

Reportedly, the titanium dioxide and zinc used in some RC papers were responsible for some of the problems with cracking. I haven't seen this particular problem in many years - decades, in fact.

 

Most of my RC prints from the '70s and '80s are still in very good condition. A few have some brownish stains, due to being stored in horrible conditions for more than a decade (non-air conditioned outdoor storage in ordinary cardboard boxes along with old newspaper clippings). However, most that were stored in the same miserable conditions are still in great shape. I suspect that some of the stains were due to inadequate washing - most of these prints were from my newspaper days and we slopped prints as quickly as possible through processing. Even RC prints need more than 10 seconds washing. ;>

Arthur: The PhotoTechnics articles by Ctein regarding RC permanence were April/May 1998, and May/June 1998.

Arthur: I just read that Sistan is available from Freestyle, but I haven't confirmed it.

As Arthur said, Henry Wilhelm is the knowledgeable person in our industry having to do with photographic stability.

 

Lynn

Thank you, Lynn. That is good to know.