Shooting in Gleason's Gym

For the b&w part of my Photo 2 class, I'm going to be shooting out at Gleason's Gym in Brooklyn.

Somehow, I stupidly didn't bring my camera or light meter with me when I went out there to talk about the

project with the gym personnel.

 

I have a good variety of film, but I was wondering what a good film to use out there would be, esp for

action shots. Would I be able to use Tri-X or TMY without pushing it... or would it need a push? Or

something faster... Neopan 1600, TMZ or Delta 3200?

What's your fastest lens? I am guessing that you might need to push, especially with available light. I really like Neopan 1600 for low light. Holds better detail than either of your pushing options, in my opinion.

I've got a Nikkor 28-85 that opens to a 3.5/4.5 and a 50mm prime that opens to a 1.8. I've also got a Canon AE-1 P with a 28mm 1:2.8 and a 50mm 1:1.8.

I would shoot a variety. Im not familiar with your location but it may look good grainy. And you said theyre action shots?

Yes, primarily action shots. I'm hoping to get some portraits as well.

 

http://www.gleasonsgym.net/ - it's only the place where all the famous boxers train (and

have trained)

The Nikon zoom lens will not be too helpful even if you use fast film. If you can't borrow some faster lenses then the Canon would seem a better bet. You are not far from me and I could lend you some faster Canon or Canon mount lenses. You will probably still need to push your film if you don't plan to use flash.

It's been a while since I've been in Gleason's gym, and my recollection may not be 100%. I wasn't there to photograph anything either. But foist, a woid about focal lengths. Something around 85mm will allow you to get some pretty tight shots from ringside. If you can get really close to the ropes, the 50mm lens will serve you well. You've got that covered with the Nikkor zoom, but unfortunately the maximum aperture of f/4.5 at the long end of the range makes the lens too slow for that. Tri-X at box speed needs 1/60 to 1/30 sec with apertures +/- 1 stop of f/2.8. Controlling camera shake with that focal length at those shutter speeds can be a bit of a challenge. It can be done if you're good, don't take caffeine in any form, and can brace yourself against something unmovable. If I were doing the shoot, I'd have my 85mm f/2 on one body and the 50mm f/1.8 or f/1.4 lens on anoyher body. For film, I'd use Tri-X rated at EI 1600 and develop it in Diafine. Working with the lens wide open, you might be able to squeeze something out of the zoom lens with that film and developer combination. Best bet would be to use TMZ or Delta 3200 rated at 3200. You won't get much shadow detail, but you won't need it. The lights in the ring are pretty even. Get there early to check out favorable vantage points, then compose carefully to keep any deep shadow areas out of the frame.

So, I went out to Gleason's last night just to shoot a few rolls, check the light, etc. Granted

I went at night, but in order to use film without pushing it, the only lens I could use was

the 50mm 1.8 on my Nikon (my Canon still has some 100UC in it that I need to burn off). I

wasn't using flash and shooting with the shutter at 1/500 to freeze the motion. At that

speed, I had to more or less shoot wide open at a 1.8. The lens is also manual focus, so

keeping up with the moving targets was a challenge.

 

As for the film I had on me, I had one roll at TMZ and one roll of Delta 3200, which I could

shoot at box speed. I had a roll of Neopan 1600 which I'm gonna have to push one stop,

and then I shot a roll of Tri-X that I'll push to 3200. I'm headed off to develop now.

 

I guess one thing I'm concerned about - and maybe the Canon is a better camera to shoot

with - since it seems on the Nikon, only one lens of mine will suffice, I don't want the

whole shoot to look the same.

 

Jeff, what other kinds of lenses would have you available? One thing that always throws me

about the Canon is the center weighted meter. Sometimes, I get the exposure wrong. I've

also pondered asking my parents if I can buy some faster lenses for the Nikon, so we'll

see.

You can get used to any kind if metering system if you know how to use it. My Konica cameras all have certer weithted metering. My Canon F-1, FTb, FTbN, FT QL and TL QL bodies all have the 12 degree spot metering. My Mamiya 500 DTL and Auto XTL bodied both have a swith for average or spot metering. My Spotmatic II has averaging metering and my Minolta SRT bodies have the CLC metering system. I also use a Gossen Scout II hand held meter with my medium format cameras.

 

The Canon mount lenses I could lens you include 28/2 Kiron, 35/1.9 Vivitar, 50/1.4 Canon FD SSC or New FD, Vivitar 135/2.5 TX, Vivitar 200/3.5 TX. I also have some fast non-standard focal length Canon lenses we could talk about. All of my Canon FD 100mm lenses are f/2.8 models but I do have an 85/1.8 New FD. If I am using a Canon body and need extra speed at 200 with a non-Canon lens I use a 200/3 Vivitar Series 1 lens in M42 mount with an adapter. I then have to use stop-down metering but if the light is low enough I am shooting at f/3 anyway. My Canon 200/2.8 is the first version New FD model. I think 200 is a little long for what you want to do anyway. I also sometimes use my 55/1.2 Canon FL on an F-1 body if I need more speed. When you develop the film you just shot you will have a better idea what to do next.

For this kind of situation I would set the meter at 4X box speed, read the pertinent shadow, set the shutter and f-stop to what the meter says and lock it in. You may have more interesting pictures if you do not try to stop action. Other times you can anticipate the peak of the action. Camera shake is often a bigger problem than subject motion. One of those monopod things is handy if you can't hold 1/60 second.

I haven't tried photographing gym activities, but have photographed much ballet, which is in some strange way related. I used Tri-X and HP5+. I used some early Kodak stuff, Royal X Pan I think, for pictures of my son's rock group at Joe's Fish Market at Virginia Beach. Grainy as all get out, but quite effective for the purpose.

Set the meter at 4X box speed... so 1600 for Tri-X and HP5+... or 6400? But if shooting

Neopan 1600 or any 3200 speed film, would it be necessary to rate at 4X box speed? Just

from what I saw the other night, I don't think so.

Hmm, let me clarify... multiply the box speed by 4 (1600) or 4 stops (6400)?

I think the confusion has to do with how a scene is metered. Patrick Gainer's technique is to change (raise) the EI but meter off of a shadow area. This would give a similar result to raising the EI less but metering off of a lighter tone. Arena or stadium or stage lighting can be tricky. The greater your distance from the subject the more difficult it is to determine how well your meter is reading the intended subject and how much the reading is being affected by the light sources themselves. In an ideal situation the subjects would stop for a few moments while you took out a gray card to meter the intended subject. A narrow angle spot meter can be helpful in a situation like this and so can experience.

 

If you use center weighted or averaging metering, each time you recompose the readings will be all over the place. You have to determine what a reasonably good reading is for the subject (faces, bodies) and stick with that with the exposure set manually. Then you can concentrate on having a high enough shutter speed and getting the shots you want.

Thanks for the input, Jeff. I sent you an email regarding the lenses earlier today... did you get

it? If you're around tomorrow, I could come back to NJ and stop by and whatnot. Let me know

what's good for you. I have to shoot my friend for my lighting class on Monday, but maybe

later in the day... if I don't hear from you, I'll just go shoot more at Gleason's tomorrow.

Anyways, I'm off to bed.... later

There is an extremely talented Photo.net participant named Jeff Spirer who does some boxing photography. Have a look at his web site, especially the section called Punch: http://www.spirer.com/

 

If I were you, I'd send him an e-mail. He posts a lot here and he is generous with his time and advice.

 

My own view of this is that you should do your shoot at the gym without using a light meter. If you do that, you will be able to concentrate on your photography and what is happening around you instead of spending your time thinking about exposure. This means knowing, before you do the shoot, what you are going to encounter in terms of lighting and the ramifications for exposure. During the shoot, you might also, when possible, shoot a stop or two below/above what your analysis tells you is "correct". This isn't just a matter of bracketing. You may get some interesting material as a result. Since you have already done a couple of test shoots, you are already on the road to being able to do this shoot without a meter.

 

I think that the most valuable thing that you could do right now is get your hands on a handheld light meter and do some incident readings in the gym under the lighting conditions that you will encounter. During the shoot itself, I would take a lot of shots. For me, at least, the aesthetic and technical failure rate in low light shooting is fairly high. But when a shot works, it can really work.

 

But mostly, I think that you should contact Mr. Spirer. He has actually done this kind of photography, and he knows what he is talking about.

 

Good luck.

One other comment. In my view, the decision whether to use a film that can be processed normally for the lighting conditions or a film that needs to be pushed is not just a technical decision, it is an aesthetic decision. A photograph taken with a film like HP5+, pushed a couple of stops, can look wonderful. If I were you, especially since this is part of a course, I would do both.

And a few random comments :)

 

There is nothing that says that you have to use a high shutter speed to freeze the action in all of your shots. A little blur can be very effective.

 

My bet is that some of your best opportunities at the gym will not be action shots.

 

I'm finding that low light shooting is a lesson in following the light. It is all about the light, and where it falls in relation to shadow. The subject is almost secondary.

man look.... if i were you id get a bunch of tri-x. thats all you need. 3200 would be the slowest id shoot it at. 6400 and 3200. get you some xtol to develop it in and youre good to go. maybe some acufine if you want to get fancy. its just film. make it do what you want it to do.