Leni Riefenstahl .

Randy, thank you for your response. No, my point was a reasonable, human

one, because I do not judge people by the colour of their skin, as you so sadly

do. <p>

I will confine myself to two observations and then leave, because I'm tired of

wrestling in this particular gutter. <p>

One, your use of phrases like "Quota Clown' is obviously intended to demean

black people, and isn't that far from the term 'sub-human'. <p>

Secondly, your use of ludicrous statistics is about as rigorous as that of

Heinrich Himmler (or Charles Murray). Particularly amusing is the assertion

that '99.44" per cent of scientific advances have been made by white Christian

males.<p>

If you knew anything at all about science, you would know that the foundation

for all mathematics did not come from white Christian culture. Why do you

think we call our numbers 'Arabic'? Who invented - or discovered - zero? Do

you think that zero might be important in the development of maths, or

physics, or computers? Do you know who invented the hexadecimal

numbering system?<p>

Your science is as hokey as your worldview is warped. If you wanted to

consider the arts, you might want to think about how most musical instruments

originated in Africa. Do some research about the origins of astronomy, too. If

you believe in the right to bear arms, investigate who invented gunpowder.

But of course, alll of this must be a myth, because black people have only

created 0.56% of our culture. <p>Get out of your gated community and look

around you. Some people enjoy the view.

<<No doubt this is very simplistic, and I make absolutely no claim to being a historian, but I believe that the position of economic superiority which enabled the small number of whites to make the advances you note was rather the outcome of a repressive colonial system than some unspecifiable genetic endownment coming to the fore in fair competition with the rest of the world. And Christianity provided a great deal of the ideological justification for the rape of other countries' resources which made this possible>>

 

In a long view of the world, it was only a few minutes ago when white people sailed around the world and made contact with dark people. There was a level playing field before that for a long time--while the races were isolated. Of course, farther back still, there was only once race. But I'm talking about the time after the dispersal of people into different parts of the world and the emergence of the differences that we can describe as racial. It seems likely that these differences were responses to different living conditions. The black skin of the tropical man seems, when compared to the pale skin of the northerner, pretty clearly an adaptation to environment. Such adaptations would take a tremendous amount of time to emerge; and it is that long time, while the races were differentiating and separate, about which I speak.

 

After hundreds of thousands of years of this level playing field, Europeans established contact with other parts of the world. They found cannibalism, and human sacrifice. They found peoples with numbering systems no higher than two. They found peoples who had not invented the wheel. They found peoples who, although living next to placid bodies of water with fish in them, had not invented the boat. They found people who, although faced with regular famines, would develop no systems to preserve food nor go afield to find more food. And they found large numbers of peoples who had not developed iron, despite having fire and iron ore.

 

Colonialism developed after this.

 

We all know colonialism had a dark side, but it had a positive side and the dark side could be recovered from. The U.S. was a colony, but we took what was good from colonialism and did pretty well afterwards.

 

I have no idea why the white peoples of the earth have been so inventive and resourceful. Writers have speculated that this emerged because of four-season climates and the necessities imposed by that. Others have written of dietary differences, and the adaptations necessary for successful hunting.

 

So, concluding: The white people of North America and Europe have done good things and awful things, but they have left us with systems, treatments, and technologies that make better lives possible for all races. The average poor person of today has food, medicine, and shelter superior to that of tribal kings in pre-Colonial times.

 

Did Christianity provide the rationale for colonialism? "Go Ye into all the world." Yes. Christopher Columbus was intensely religious, and Christianizing the Indies was his avowed purpose. Did people exploit colonialism? Yes. Was it the desire of the Church that colonialism develop this dark side? That is a vast historical question. The answer lies in correspondence left by the people involved, and the interpretation of those documents seems to vary with the religious views of the scholars.

 

It was, however, Christian ideas that stopped cannibalism and human sacrifice and, eventually, slavery itself. And eventually it stopped cruel and unusual punishments. If you want to find these horrible practices, go into parts of the earth where western Christian ideas and practices have no force today.

 

If we have in our country millions of white men descended from such a resourceful race, it is foolish to arrange policies that send these people to the back of the line in growing numbers of areas. We need their contributions.

 

We need for young white men with high SAT scores to get into the colleges that can accommodate and challenge them. (It has been proven that SAT scores accurately predict college performance--and that is all they propose to do.) We do not need to block them out to hold seats for people whose scores are lower. There are lots of schools for those who do no qualify for the most brilliant schools.

 

People have said that SAT scores are high among the "rich and privileged," and that high SAT scores among whites are the result of "wealth and privilege," and of course racism and taking advantage of helpless minorities. As if there were no middle-class minorities. But what is the truth? Low-income whites do better on the SAT than high-income blacks. And low-income Asians do even better than the whites! Wealth and privilege?

 

We also have studies showing study patterns of high school students. The Asians study most, the whites second, and the blacks study least. And that's how the races stack up on the SAT. Wealth and privilege?

 

And you have an occasional black student, from a poor family, who scores very high on the SAT. Wealth and privilege?

 

Besides, most of the people who dismiss the achievements of white men as somehow being made through buying advantage have to stereotype minorities as always poor. Despite what you'd infer from politicians and movies, there really is a black middle class. Why don't we accuse TMEM of doing well through buying advantage? The reason we don't is that the bigotry du jour has white men as its targets. The white parents who pressure their children to do well on the SAT are elitists. The minority parents who do the same thing are praised as "holding up high standards."

 

And while we are talking about the black middle class, let's mention another group that gets little attention in politics and the media: poor whites. The white guy from a desperately poor home is not described as facing great odds whereas the black kid from a middle-class home is. Bill Cosby's kids are eligible for Affirmative Action. John White's kids, mired in poverty, are not. As a matter of fact, a poor white boy has to go to the back of the college-admissions line along with his better-off mates. From that position, he can watch middle-class black kids with weak SATs and histories of not studying as they are escorted to the front. The white kid is "privileged" to watch this happening.

 

Again I hear the cry, "But that's only justice! Black people used to be sent to the back of the line!" No, it isn't justice. The white kid at the back of the line was born long after Jim Crow. He has never been in a position to hire, fire, rent to, or refuse to rent to anyone. He is simply the victim of a political arrangement to hold together voting blocks.

 

And in true 1984 fashion, this injustice is called "Social Justice," and the turning away of white talent is called "Affirmative Action." And the suppression of dissident viewpoints is called "inclusion." And the improvement of neighborhoods--if it is accomplished by white residents--is criticized as "gentrification."

 

These preposterous phrases occur when a society is, as I said earlier, nurturing at its heart a deep contradiction to its values. Only when that nurturing is stopped will people be able to freely discuss issues such as this without hiding inside doublespeak.

 

 

"And eventually it stopped cruel and unusual punishments. If you want to find these horrible practices, go into parts of the earth where western Christian ideas and practices have no force today."

 

Like... Guantanamo?

<I>"And eventually it stopped cruel and unusual punishments. If you want to find these horrible practices, go into parts of the earth where western Christian ideas and practices have no force today."</I>

<P>I'm not up on contemporary Irish history, but Bobby Sands might disagree with you ever so slightly.

<P>So would all those wonderful white boys of your master race whose anal sphincters were ruptured by white priests of the master race. Read "The Church that forgot Christ" by Jummy Breslin (available at Amazon).

<P>As for the phrase "western Christian ideas" it shows your complete ignorance of the teachings of Christianity. All you have to do is ask yourself, if Christ came to earth today, what would he think of the religion that bears his name? There should be no divisions between man. Isn't love the essence of religion.

<P>PS. The first law of holes: "When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging."

I have no idea why the white peoples of the earth have been so inventive and resourceful

 

Advanced civilisations existed when white people were scratching around in caves.

 

Civilisations rise and fall.

"These preposterous phrases occur when a society is, as I said earlier, nurturing at its heart a deep contradiction to its values. Only when that nurturing is stopped will people be able to freely discuss issues such as this without hiding inside doublespeak."

 

How should this be accomplished? Clearly things aren't working out as it is. All those supposedly disadvantaged whites just aren't voting for change, or joining political parties and creating platforms for change. Is this because they don't exist?

Oh, boy. I don't look in on the dicussion for awhile and come back only to learn that white people are oppressed, vilified, and discriminated against? That's awful.

 

Trevor, this is all your fault. You and that lousy dvd you're buying.

progress is not just about scientific progress. i'd rather live in a humane world than a world with digital cameras and viagra.

 

people, it seems, are scary and selfish. that's why i don't mind taking pictures of them when they're not lookin'.

 

and just to clarify one point, people who collect nazi memorobilia ARE closet nazis. it's the "closet" part that makes it difficult to see sometimes.

Raise your hand, ye participants in this discussion, if you are NOT a white privileged male.

Yes, I would have to say Leni Riefenstahl is one of the most talented Nazi sympathizers and propagandists of whom I am aware. David Duke has reviewed her work favorably. :-)

<I>"Raise your hand, ye participants in this discussion, if you are NOT a white privileged male."</I>

<P>I guess I'm the only one.

Hey Vic, I've seen your camera collection and you definitely meet the "privilged" part of the question. Or is that some tragic form of 'over compensation' for not being white? ;-)

 

And FWIW, I'd say there's a bigger problem facing American society than Affirmative Action, and that's inherited privilege. Tell me honestly that a black 'C' student could hope to be president.

white people are oppressed, vilified, and discriminated against? That's awful.

Trevor, this is all your fault.

 

Trevor got a suntan while he was on holiday. ....Ooops, just read the above...perhaps you should keep suntan Trevor.

 

Hate to see my mate Trevor vilified. Harvey would be most upset.

 

I have no idea why the white peoples of the earth have been so inventive and resourceful

 

Hitler, and friends believed they were from lost Atlantis...true, not a joke.. An alien master race which came from space. . He sent his Archaeologists searching for proof, to prove his theory, which he truly believed in. You can ask Leni.

 

Hope this helps, Randy.

Hi Kevin, They are just the fruits of being a quota clown. Where have you been? We're supposed to have sushi before the summer ends.

 

Actually, no privilege at all. Education and hard work. What a surprise!!!

Hi Vic! Instead of (or in addition to!) sushi, we could try this place in Warren, RI called "Nat Porter." My friend and his wife opened it a couple of months ago and I shot the pics for their website. (That's him in the white chef togs.)<div></div>

Hi Allen.

 

I am yet to have my Autumn holiday. And it is impossible to get a suntan in the Mendips in October!

<<Like... Guantanamo?>>

 

I listed the specific horrible practices I was discussing. An aberration is one thing, but for a society to openly practice and declare acceptable such things as cannibalism, human sacrifice, and slavery is another matter.

 

<<So would all those wonderful white boys of your master race whose anal sphincters were ruptured by white priests of the master race.>>

 

The priesthood is mostly white, but some of the priests caught in child abuse have been black.

 

Did I say master race? No. You wish I had said that--so you could dismiss my arguments, but I didn't say it. I said that most of our advances in technology and medicine have come from white men. Is that true or not?

 

I am extremely grateful for the contributions of white men. Aren't you? I mean, what is it worth to you to know that your children will never have polio? If you have to get an injection at a hospital, where would you rather be? Here or Sudan? How about a blood transfusion? If you son were caught shoplifting, would you rather him be here or in Nigeria--where the shop owner can drag him into the street and chop off his hands while people stand around and laugh?

 

And I have to say you leave me breathless by comparing priestly pederasty, done in secret and against the law, as equal to having cannibalism, human sacrifice, and slavery openly legal and openly practiced.

 

Evil has been everywhere on the earth. The difference is in the degree to which people outlaw it and try to stop it. Or even outlaw it at all.

 

<<Read "The Church that forgot Christ" by Jummy Breslin (available at Amazon).>>

 

Actually, I will, even though I find Jimmy Breslin tiresome. BTW, I am not Catholic; but I do consider this pederasty a departure from Christianity. I'm sure it's been going on in the Catholic Church forever. If it isn't stopped soon, the Catholics will cease to be relevant. As I said in another context, a country cannot survive if it nurtures deep contradictions. That must surely be true of organized religion, also.

 

<<As for the phrase "western Christian ideas" it shows your complete ignorance of the teachings of Christianity. All you have to do is ask yourself, if Christ came to earth today, what would he think of the religion that bears his name? There should be no divisions between man. Isn't love the essence of religion.>>

 

Hmmm. My undergraduate minor was religion and philosophy, and I do read Christian theology from time to time, so I have a basic grasp of Christian beliefs. Were Christ to come to earth now, He would not be surprised to find the Church as it is. He saw the same corruption in the Temple of his time, and was anguished. He also recognized the fallen nature of the human being and would not be surprised to find that expressing itself even in a religious institution. He was a realist.

 

<<PS. The first law of holes: "When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.">>

 

That's actually a wise and witty proverb. I'll remember it, because lord knows I've been in a few holes. That said, I don't feel I am in any hole here. People are making arguments, and I am responding to them.

 

<<Advanced civilisations existed when white people were scratching around in caves.>>

 

That line of argument was started by some preposterous and unresearched books that have gone around in radical circles. Those books have been shown up as hoaxes, most notably in a study called "Not Out of Africa." I forget the author's name. She's a classics professor--I believe at an Ivy League school.

 

One of those nutty books said that Aristotle went to Egypt and "stole" his philosophy from the library at Alexandria. But when Aristotle was alive, there was no library at Alexandria.

 

<<Civilisations rise and fall.>>

 

Quite true. Except that some never rise far.

 

<<How should this be accomplished? Clearly things aren't working out as it is. All those supposedly disadvantaged whites just aren't voting for change, or joining political parties and creating platforms for change. Is this because they don't exist?>>

 

Affirmative Action was created in the courts, and it is fostered there. People have not been allowed to vote on it.

 

You are thinking in terms of numbers, not in terms of what is right. Not enough white people have been thwarted by Affirmative Action to make up a political party yet. But do people only merit concern when they reach vast numbers? If ONE man is turned away from a job or a college because he is white and male, that is a scandal to the country that allows and imposes it.

 

If you want case histories of people who have been held back by Affirmative Action, I can point you to some sources. Are you interested?

 

<<Trevor, this is all your fault.>>

 

Everything bad in the world is Trevor's fault. He's not only a white male, he's an Anglo-Saxon.

 

<<i'd rather live in a humane world than a world with digital cameras and viagra.>>

 

I'd say the world is more humane without slavery, which white men died to eliminate. I also like the idea of stopping cannibalism, human sacrifice, death by slow torture, and such. White men have done their best to stop those, as well.

 

<<people who collect nazi memorobilia ARE closet nazis.>>

 

I always assumed people use Nazi memorabilia in s&m scenes--you know, for sex kicks. Shows how I think, I guess.

 

<<Raise your hand, ye participants in this discussion, if you are NOT a white privileged male.>>

 

I'm a white male, but I'm pretty far from privileged. My father grew up poor, and so did I. I am descended from indentured servants.

 

<<David Duke has reviewed her work favorably. :-)>>

 

Is he still around?

 

<<And FWIW, I'd say there's a bigger problem facing American society than Affirmative Action, and that's inherited privilege.>>

 

Would you take away from people the right to leave their wealth to their children?

 

Do you know that a small percentage of wealthy people inherit their money? The great majority earn the money. And these people pay enormous taxes. I haven't seen the numbers in two years; but as of 2002, the top 10% of Americans, in terms of wealth, carried 70% of the tax burden. These people spend a lot of money, and invest a lot in American business. All that helps the rest of us. Take the rich people out of the country and watch the standard of living go down for everybody.

 

And don't think that the departure of the wealthy would leave a bigger pie for the rest of us. Free markets don't work that way. If Donald Trump makes money, it doesn't stop me from making money. As a matter of fact, I can make my money more easily when people like Donald Trump are paying huge taxes and stimulating business with their activities.

 

If you are talking about inherited political power, there's not been a lot of that in American history at the highest levels. There were the Adams presidents, and the Harrisons and Roosevelts, and now the Bushes. Ted Kennedy has vast political power, all of which he inherited, but he hasn't turned it into the presidency. So more than name-recognition and family money must be required.

 

<<Tell me honestly that a black 'C' student could hope to be president.>>

 

Yes, we get your drift. I repeat, though: having money and being in a political family is not enough in itself. I would say this: when the time comes that ANY black man can be elected president, his grades in college will be considered irrelevant. To tell the truth, any college grades received after about 1990 are meaningless: grade inflation is that bad.

 

I doubt we'll see a black president in my lifetime, but we probably will see a white female president. Probably Hillary. She has the minorities in her pocket, as well as single white women. A lot of married white women will desert the Republican fold to vote for her because she is a female. That would be enough votes to give her the election.

 

<<white people are oppressed, vilified, and discriminated against?>>

 

I've been talking about white men, not about white people in general. White women are eligible for Affirmative Action. They were made so for political reasons, not because their position in society is anything like that of minorities. As I said earlier, Affirmative Action is a political strategy, not an attempt to create justice. If Affirmative Action were not given to women, the single white women who vote for the Democrats would vote Republican. The coalition of the present Democratic Party is minorities and single white women. And they are held in the party by the bribe of Affirmative Action.

 

White women are not vilified. The smears are against white men; they are partly the result of bad conscience over Affirmative Action. And, of course, the smears have political power. Politicians feel that minorities are more likely to vote for them if they trash white men.

 

<<Hitler, and friends believed they were from lost Atlantis...true, not a joke.. An alien master race which came from space. . He sent his Archaeologists searching for proof, to prove his theory, which he truly believed in. You can ask Leni. Hope this helps, Randy.>>

 

It doesn't seem like a good theory to me. :-) The climate theory does, however. It's the only hypothesis that fits the facts. If you have a better one, I'll listen.

 

Someone mentioned Arab inventions. Those were long ago, but, yes, we should appreciate them. As for some number of musical instruments developed in Africa, I never heard that before. I'll look into it; I'm curious. The musicality of black people is beyond question, of course. And similarly beyond question is the musicality of white people. Bach wasn't bad. And of course, the blues and jazz were developed by black people on a foundation of European music, especially church music. It always amuses me to hear people accuse Elvis of "stealing" the ""music of black people." If he is guilty of that, then the music he stole was stolen goods to begin with!

 

I didn't repeat here the banter about sushi, because it was making me hungry. If you guys want to disagree with any of this, fire away. I'll give you the last word. Thanks for being willing to discuss a taboo subject and to do it civilly. And for avoiding doublespeak!

 

 

Yes, everything bad in the world is my fault. Sorry.

Interesting, your selective response. "Black people are quite musical". How

generous. <p>

I notice you didn't respond to the point that all of modern mathematics is

based on a foundation created by non-whites. Or do some research on

astronomy. Do you know why there are 60 seconds in a minute? Or even

gunpowder. I would be interested how these profound, essential scientific

breakthroughs don't even account for a fraction of a per cent of human

advances. But the truth is, you're not listening. <p>

Fortunately, the world is changing, and your kind of attitudes are

disappearing, just like the notion that the earth is the centre of the universe.

so jay is back. are people really happy?? randy skopar . . . ?? i

would have gone with horny heliar.

Not every newly-registered weirdo on PN is Jay - while obnoxious, he was at

least stimulating and entertaining; while illogical, he was at least intelligent.

<p> And, when in a hole, he would usually deftly switch to another thread.

<<Hitler, and friends believed they were from lost Atlantis...true, not a joke.. An alien master race which came from space. . He sent his Archaeologists searching for proof, to prove his theory, which he truly believed in. You can ask Leni. Hope this helps, Randy.>>

 

It doesn't seem like a good theory to me

 

50 million white Christians believed him! Even the pope got excited. Think, we are talking about a culturally civilised white super race. Surely Randy you must give some credence to their thoughts.

 

Do you honestly believe Leni would have dropped her knickers so many times unless she believed. She was a very clever girl.

And it is impossible to get a suntan in the Mendips in October!

 

You must have a touch of the tar brush, Trevor. No wonder you are not as clever as most proper white folk. Harvey did mention there was something not proper about you.

"Do you honestly believe Leni would have dropped her knickers so many times unless she believed. She was a very clever girl."

 

Allen, do you have any references for this? The mere fact you disapprove of someone's work doesn't justify you in libelling her in this way. A pretty cheap shot.

Old flame, Rob?