Film for Group Shot

I have just been asked to shoot some group shots of about 10 girls.

The location is in a park between 11am and 2pm. As I live in

Australia it will be sunny!

I was planning on shooting in the shade as there are large trees in

the park.

What I am after is some film recommendations. I am looking at using

a ISO 400 film and developing it in Rodinal (it's all I have). I

have only ever shot APX400 and I am not overly happy with it.

Any suggestions about what to do with 10 girls (teenagers and early

twenties) in a group shot would also be appreciated.

The equipment I have is my Canon EOS3000 and a 28-85mm lens.

Thanks

1) use a tripod, not only for stability but you can choose a good place, install and focus, etc... the camera, and after install the group and take your pictures quickly. A group is a very impatient animal !

 

2) if you use a tripod you can use a 100 ISO film with a better definition, important when you have a picture where small faces must be clearly visible.

 

3) use your lens at 85mm, not too close stop to separate group from background

 

4) be patient: 10 girls (teenagers and early twenties) ;-)

The above advice is sound, and I would add two things: 1) Fill your frame fairly full, and 2) and be sure there are no blotches or patches of raw sunlight coming through spaces in the tree leaves on the subjects. Also shoot an entire roll of at least 24 exposures.

I really like APX 400 in Rodinal!<p>BUT...10 girls, APX 400 & Rodinal is not a good idea...think tiny faces / big grain (see <a href="http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=005vQb&unified_p=1"><b>this thread</b></a>).<p>And if it were me shooting?<p>XP2 Super...thats a no brainer as it gives you smoooooth skin tones, is able to be enlarged to (well I'm not sure with your lens...STOP IT DOWN a couple of stops!), and handles contrast very well (shoot it at 250).<p>Pose the girls close togeather...tangle them up with each other...Good luck!

I've been volunteered into these sorts of things and the XP2 comment reminded me of something I've done at times. I'll use the chromogenic as it's so easy to supply the group with the proofs (especially if you're using 35mm). I simply hand them the whole works, negatives and all and let them deal with the reprints, enlargements, etc. Depending on the purpose and quality needed, move down the film speed scale for enhanced quality and definition. If you can't get good, open shade, over expose and under-develop to help tame the contrast. Fill flash will aid to smooth the light, too. Done with some restraint, fill flash can simply open up the eye pockets a bit and not be artificial or noticeable. Personally, I use 1.5 to 2 stops under on the fill for this sort of thing. Good Luck! With this many girls, you'll have lots of blinkers and will make use of all of your frames to get a couple of good keepers!

Thanks for your help, I appreciate it.

Just with using XP2.....The print is to be a going away present so I would like to develop it myself. I should have mentioned that, sorry. Any recomenndations on a non-chromogenic film?

The other tips are great, thanks.

I have been going through alot of forum posts and Neopan 400 seems ok for portraits. Any thoughts?

<i>The print is to be a going away present so I would like to develop it myself.</i><p>Paula you do develop the print yourself...it's the negs for the prints that you have done in a 1 hour machine.

Sorry Jim, I don't know much about chromogenic films.

I have never used them before.

Ditto for the tripod & the tele setting. Remember that the proportions for the 35mm frame dosen't quite match standard paper sizes. If you plan on making an 8X10 print leave some room at the sides of the frame to compensate for this. I would use Delta 400 developed in XTOL 1:1. Perhaps for slighty reduced contract I would underdevelop by 20%

I have not used them, but I undertsand that the chromogenic films are meant to b&w 'colour' films that you can have done at your local one hour photo or lab. Therefore, they are not true B&W films, they just result in B&W prints at the one hour lab. As far as I know, they all require a C-41 development process, which is not a B&W process. If Paula is using B&W and doing her own developing and printing, I think it is unlikely that she can do a C-41 process. Therefore, I think XP2 is not a suitable film given her stated goals.

 

You don't say where in OZ you are, so I don't know what you mean by 'sunny'. Sunny in Melb is different from sunny in Sydney which is different than sunny in Uluru. That's if it ever WAS sunny in Melbourne...

 

Anyway, I'd use TRI-X given what you've said, and develop it with the Rodinal using 1:50. If you use this instead of 1:25 it will lessen the grain. I also like FP4 but that is a 125 film. If you really have sunny conditions, I think you should go with a slower film than a 400. I also like the Efke films, in 100 and 50, but I'm not sure we can get them here in Oz, I just bring it back from the States when I go there.

 

Whatever you choose, go out and shoot a roll or two of it BEFORE you do this shoot for real. You don't want to approach an event worth documenting with a lack of confidence!

 

Cheers, Richard

Tri-X and Rodinal for a group shot? No, no, no! Tooooo grainy!

 

Since it will be sunny, I recommend Agfa APX 100 and Rodinal 1+50 at 20ºC for 15 minutes. APX 100 and Rodinal is a superb combination, and gives fine, sharp grain and great skintones.

 

Take my advice and don't listen to the other suggestions. :-D

Much as I enjoy the flexibility of fast traditional b&w film and the "look" of Rodinal, neither is particularly suitable for this specific situation. Other folks have already described why well enough - small format, tiny faces (relative to the film format), grain, etc.

 

If any shooting situtation called for using a high resolution film this is it. You can either use Rodinal on a slower, finer grain film - no problem there - or a faster film with a finer grain developer, but you can't have it both ways. Not in 35mm.

 

I *could* suggest using Tri-X, HP5+, Delta 400, TMY, Neopan 400, etc., developed in Perceptol or Microdol-X for a combination of reasonable speed and fine grain. But then you'd have to shoot a few test rolls and develop them to get comfortable with the combination. Do you have enough time for this?

 

I'd agree with the suggestions to use Ilford XP2 Super. Besides offering high speed and fine grain, it's a low-to-moderate contrast film that should handle the lighting you've described very well. And having a relatively clear film base you can print it normally on just as you would any traditional b&w film. (Don't confuse XP2 Super with chromogenic monochrome films from Kodak - they aren't the same and the Kodak equivalents can present a real challenge to printing on conventional papers.)

 

If you had the time to experiment and become comfortable with other films or developers I'm sure you'd get lots of valid suggestions. But under the circumstances you need something that works reliably and will give you negatives that you can print yourself. Go with XP2 Super.

 

BTW, Frances Schultz has used XP2 and XP2 Super many times for photo illustrations in books produced with her husband, Roger Hicks. I'm continually impressed by the quality of those photos, whether originally shot in 35mm, medium format or 4x5 (tho' I'm not sure whether the film is still available in large format).

the suns out today in Melbourne.. bit cold still!

 

Seems you're in Brisbane so your prediction of sun is probably accurate! As mentioned above, watch out for highlights coming thru branches. When you've exposed for the general scene, they will be unprintable.

 

If you must use Rodinal and a 400asa film, I'd try Delta 400. My experience with APX400 (not much) has been golfball grain so I think you'd be pleased with Delta sized grain (or the Kodak equvalent I guess.. never used any of that myself). Ideally, you'd use a 100 speed film but depending on how you position everyone you may need the DOF obtainable with 400 over 100 film. I'd also be inclined to shoot some XP2.

 

I've done a comparitive test using FP4 and Rodinal 1:100, D76 1:1 and Ilford LC29 and in a 8x10 print you need a loupe to tell the difference, so I'd suggest a quick test of Delta 400 in Rodinal of the site you propose (get someone in the pic too so you can evaluate faces in the shot). Shoot a whole roll and process half to get and idea of development, then use the other half to tweak the time a little. Good luck.

Hey it's really sunny in Melbourne today! Go easy!

 

I'd also recommend a slower film for that time of day and the type of print you're after. I like APX100 and FP4 (depending on which I can get my hands on) in Rodinal 1:50. You didn't say if you would be using a tripod though. If possible, use a tripod and fire a pop of fill flash around 1.5 - 2 stops under if you're in the shade or 1 stop under if there are obvious shadows.

 

If you can't use a tripod and flash, see if you can't buy a standard developer to use for the faster film. I mean, a small packet of D76 is only going to cost like $5, and at 8X10 would be a noticable improvement over Rodinal for that type of shot (to my eye).

 

Mark

Paula - it's hard to tell you how to get someplace without knowing where you're going. Do you want 4X6 snap shots? - use any handy 400 speed film and have at it. Do you want 11 X 14 matted and framed prints - your 400 speed film and Rodinal may not be your best choice but others have given you some excellent advise. If a picnic bench is available pile 'em on and get 'em close.

I'd agree with some of the above that APX 400 and Rodinal is not the best way to go. Use a tripod and either TMax 100 or Delta 100. Rate them at 50 ASA and dev in Rodinal 1:50, 20 C, 6.5 minutes. Light is no problem for you so why use a 400 ASA film?

I've shot a group of 50, indoors and used APX100 on a tripod - I'm perfectly happy with the results (OTOH if I'd redo it, I'd probably shoot it in medium format). It's a bit about how much grain you can tolerate and how do you want the look to be. Personally I can't stand really mushy grain. Here are my recommendations:

 

1. USE A TRIPOD. You'll get significantly better sharpness. With a pose shot, you can easily take exposures from 1/8 sec. and up without risk of motion blur. This is especially important since you don't have a fast lens.

 

2. Now that you're using a tripodm you can use a film of 100 speed or even slower. I'd recommend APX100, Delta100 (but not in Rodinal, so if you have to use Rodinal, skip that) FP4+ 125 or Pan F+ 50 (rate it slightly lower than 50 for Rodinal). Tmax100 gives very fine grain but I've never got good tonality from it (have to work hard in PS to get portraits taken with it look good), so I can't recommend it for your application. In short, APX 100, FP 4+ 125 (this is pretty close to APX ) or Pan F+ 50. Please remember that much depends on your taste&preferences for how the images should look; I can only speak for what I like.