shijan

<p>And seems i finally find a correct way to open files in ColorPerfect. Few days ago i done a custom ICC profiles for scanner and now my workflow looks like:<br />1. Scan to negative with linear gamma <br />2. Open in Photoshop and assign custom ICC input scanner profile with linear gamma<br />3. Convert to profile with Gamma 2.2 (currently i choose Best RGB)<br />4. Open ColorPerfect plugin<br />5. Choose gamma only (choose 2.2 or other number, depending of visual preference)<br />6. Adjust black and white points to avoid clipping <br />7. Adjust WB (if needed) <br />8. Do other adjustments in Photoshop<br>

PLEASE NOTE that "Beautiful native Nikon input profile" posted above DON't WORKS in this way. You need to made your own profile with IT 8.7 target, or find somewhere exposure independent profile, generated with VueScan on same model of film scanner as yours. </p>

<p>unfortunately my concept became wrong and seems nikon native profile is more complicated than i thought. i don't find a way to assign correctly those profiles in photoshop, as so as image from Nikon behaves same as usual sRGB image when i assign profile to it.<br>

in Nikon manual i find info about Wide Gamut RGB (compensated) <br>

"because the gamut has been expanded in a non- linear fashion to incorporate just those colors that could not otherwise be expressed, it can not be represented in chro- maticity diagrams using a standard RGB triangle"<br>

now i think that Scanner RGB profile is build with same technology and the problem is that it just can't be represented.</p>

<p>And finally here it is! Beautiful native Nikon input profile:<br /> <img src="http://f.cl.ly/items/3e3c142g121V2b0t0f2k/Screen%20shot%202012-12-10%20at%201.28.00%20AM.png" alt="" width="700" height="582" /><br /> Download here http://cl.ly/LTFq</p>

<p>Sure, any app needs an embedded profile. I do it for test to figure how actually applications see images without embedded profile.<br /> But the main practical question after all this - where to find Nikon Scanner input profiles in nonproprietary nikon profile type?</p>

<p>no. i'm not assign sRGB to it. seems you read inattention or i wrote too complexity :)<br>

i put to ColorThink image scanned with linear gamma without any profile at all. (so called RAW image scanned with Vusecan). And ColorThink seen it as sRGB.</p>

<p>I believe that all original wide space data still there but without input profile it temporary assigned by photoshop and other apps to sRGB. And without input profile there is no chance to see those data in other way.</p>

<p>Here is another research:<br>

Same scanned RAW Tiff from Vuescan with linear gamma without profile was opened in ColorThink application (same as Andrew Rodney done in its video tutorial) and what i see - visually it fits to sRGB space. Ok, i thought that maybe its not enough saturation there and open image in Photoshop without assigning profile, boost saturation to the limit, save it without profile, then open again in ColorThink and again see the image ideally fitted to sRGB space.<img src="http://f.cl.ly/items/2O3S141x1d190i0S4204/RAW%20vs%20sRGB.png" alt="" /><br>

This probably means that any other app will work with those unassigned linear image in sRGB space (same as browser or any OS do by default with unassigned images from internet). And files processed in ColorPerfect became sRGB from the moment when they are opened in Photoshop, so bye bye wide gamut...<br>

I also open uncorrected image from Epson Scan with assigned Perfection V100 ref profile and as i expected i see its huge native gamut there.<img src="http://f.cl.ly/items/3J3X092d0U0j0K3u113t/Epson%20vs%20sRGB.png" alt="" /><br>

Also i noticed that RAW images from Vuescan cannot be opened in NikonScan software (madness but it just don't see it as supported file type in browser), same time NikonScan can open, edit and convert any other usual images.<br>

Seems there is really something unknown in those RAW linear images from scanner apps. Maybe there is some kind of additional low level data in them which is san be read correctly only by apps which create those files? Any thoughts or ideas about this?<br>

And some thoughts about Nikon:<br>

Nikon Scan install its input profiles for all scanner models but they are encoded and Photoshop can't see them it profile list. Those profiles have Class: 'nkpf' i hear thai its some kind of proprietary nikon profile type. How do you think is it possible to decode those profiles for use them with RAW scanner files? Also maybe someone can share its custom build profiles for Nikon scanner?</p>

<p>And few more thoughts about this.</p>

<p>I got Epson V10 scanner it's bundled software makes very good results and colors are visually identical to original image. There are also two input profiles for that scanner installed with it's driver (Perfection V100 film and Perfection V100 ref). Those profiles have no extension and if i open them in ColorSync they seen as Class: Input. The profiles have pretty wide color space and bizzare shape (see picture below).</p>

<p>So i made a little test: <br />First scan made with Epson Scan utility to sRGB.<br>

Second scan made with Vuescan RAW to Tiff with linear gamma<br>

Then i open those files in Photoshop, leave linear scan untagged and try to adjust gamma to match sRGB scan from Epson Scan, but the colors were very different. Then i try to assign those Perfection V100 ref profile (by the way it was seen in photoshop's profiles list) and in this way after adjusting gamma exactly to number 1.8 (don't know why it appear to be 1.8) the colors and overall look became perfectly match to the sRGB scan internally processed by Epson Software. <br />This all means that image scanned even with linear gamma needs correct input profile from capture device to be correctly seen by application! And even averaged device profile works pretty well here. That's why i'm so worry about those mismatch in ColorPerfect workflow.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Hello. I like the idea of RAW scanning but i still can't understand how the ColorPerfect works and how to organize correct workflow without color data loss. My aim is to output more-less correct images with ProPhto RGB color space for further adjusting in Camera RAW or Lightroom<br>

Let's suppose that i have scanned color negative in Vuescan to image with linear gamma and without color profile in it (as described in ColorPerfect FAQ). Before process it in ColorPerfect i need to open image in photoshop. When i open image in photoshop i see a dialog box which purpose me to leave image without profile or assign profile. And here begins mystery. As i know it is not correct just assign profile to untagged image, but in ColorPerfect plugin FAQ it is told that i just need to assign profile to image (just assign, not convert) before or after processing. OK i left image untagged and assign ProPhto RGB to it after processing and have madness saturated colors as i expected of just assigning profile. <br>

Correct me if i wrong but image needs some starting coordinates for RGB values, sone starting scanner color space to begin work with or convert color coordinates to another space, and it is wrong to put untagged image in photoshop or ColorPerfect which have no idea how to understand those image. <br>

So my general question is to those who uses ColorPerfect - how should i open image in photoshop before process it in, and how should all workflow looks like to have image in ProPhto RGB color space?</p>

<p>I find this chart in <a href="http://irq.dk/~tkj/ROMM_RGB_white_paper2_2.pdf">Reference Output Medium Metric RGB Color Space (ROMM RGB) White Paper</a> wrote by by Eastman Kodak Company. As i know ROMM RGB later renamed to ProPhoto RGB.<br>

<img src="http://f.cl.ly/items/2317203t1J2G1D3a2h2u/Comparison%20of%20color%20gamuts.png" alt="" /></p>

<p>Yea, i know that TIFF in DNG container is not the same as real RAW DNG from digital camera. But ACR shadow-highlighs works great even with poor jpegs. Its easy to confirm by recovering data from shadows in real RAW from digital camera and than in same file converted to Tiff and imported back to ACR.</p>

<p>There are some features in ACR that are not available in Photoshop, for example way more advanced shadow-highlight engine. Also Tiffs converted to DNG files with metadata inside have way smaller sizes than Tiffs with smart objects (even with zip compression). But i'm still not sure that there is a correct way to deal with scan data, thats why i keep search and ask for scan samples for deeper understanding how to deal with data.</p>

<p>Thanks for info Andrew. Now i only left to find a way how to get ProPhoto RGB from nikon scanner. The main problem is that Nikon scan software only allow Adobe RGB, Wide Gamut RGB, Scanner RGB color spaces. Adobe and Wide Gamut RGB are not fits perfectly into color space used in Adobe camera RAW. Also native Nikon Scanner RGB has a problem - Photoshop and other apps see it as sRGB, so it needs to be assigned to custom profile build specially for scanner, which a also can't do because a haven't my own scanner. I believe that it is not very just to open file with unassigned Scanner RGB profile in Camera RAW for editing. So the question is it really any correct way to use RAW scanner data in other applications or scanning programs without having a custom build scanner profile?</p>

 

<p>Hello everyone! <br>

First i would like to share a little research:<br>

As you know Lightroom uses Melissa RGB which uses ProPhoto RGB chromatisity values working in linear gamma. For real raw from digital camera it is clear workflow, but let's think what happens when we put scanned image (or example with Adobe RGB with Gamma 2.2) to camera RAW or lightroom. Probably it has converted to Melissa RGB and when we export it for example to web it is converted again to sRGB. So in theory there is one additional conversion which affects image quality. <br>

So then I try to proof this theory. First - i put one scanned Tiff image with Adobe RGB profile to Photoshop and use Adobe RGB as working space. Second - i open the copy of same image i open in camera raw and then open it in Photoshop using Adobe RGB settings in camera raw settings. <br>

Visually images looking same, but their histograms were different!<br>

I try same with sRGB and other color spaces but the result always were the same - different histograms of same images.<br>

Currently i try to figure the best way for scan my archive os film negatives, and decide to use Nikon Coolscan 5000 for best possible results. I haven't my own scanner and scanning service company use only original Nikon Scan software so they scan to 16 bit Tiff Adobe RGB. So the simplest way is just edit those images in Photoshop with smart adjustments. But regarding <a href="../digital-darkroom-forum/00acIe">this</a> discussion Adobe RGB can handle slightly less colors than Film negative can produce, so it is not a best solution for futureproof digital archive. <br>

How do you think is there was a way to output image from scanner in Melissa RGB or just correct workflow to convert raw scanner data with linear gamma and without embed profile to those space? Maybe VueScan Of Silverfast can do such conversion?<br>

I also would be grateful if someone with Nikon Coolscan 5000 or 9000 can share a negative film scanned without any software enhancements for this and other research purposes.<br>

Tiff with Color management turned ON with gamma 1.0<br>

Tiff with Color management turned OFF with gamma 2.2 <br>

Tiff with Color management turned ON with sRGB profile<br>

Tiff with Color management turned ON with Adobe RGB profile<br>

Tiff with Color management turned ON with Scanner RGB profile </p>

<p> </p>