ellery

I checked local best buy - did not see any wide gamut panels

 

There I an HH Greg though - may check them out too - have a feeling they will not have

The Mac book pro is my wife's - I use it for web surfing - have a new dell CPA 8500 for my use - lovin this machine -

decent video card too

 

I'll be interested to see more of the tutorials - perhaps it will further inform my decisions

<p>man, that mirror idea is wonderful.....my wife tonight will be like "wtf are you doing" :D<br /><br />I will add too, that there is other "placebo" effects involved with doing what you did - slowing down, squeezing the trigger....it likely will have the other indirect of effect of generally slowing you down, to think a bit more about your shooting....this seemingly would have other benefits if you are a bit generally too hasty firing off shots too fast, pressing hard, etc..<br /><br />Seemingly, the pros appear to be much more intentional than many of use newer and untrained folks....I suspect that is just one of the many reasons why...<br /><br />Oh, and if you have VR/IS technology in you lens, this is another reason to take you time with the trigger...you need to give it just a little bit of time before pressing the shutter (or so my manuals says on my new VR lens :D)...<br /><br />Good Luck, loved, the mirror idea, cannot wait to try it myself.<br /><br /></p>

<p>I apologize then....my reading of the words you provided in this space, led me to believe (erroneously) that you would not advocate for a (for example) a dell 2713, or 2413...and further, in the context of this discussion, my interpretation of your remarks are such that I thought you felt them functionally incapable of being any better than simply sticking with the current stock TN panel that came with your PC out of the box.<br /><br />It seems I missed some nuance there.....I apologize for that.<br /><br />Such conversation between experts and non-experts can be difficult...even more difficult in text format.</p>

<p>Andrew...let me say, that I agree largely (personally) with what you are saying. I really like the features and capabilities of the NEC PA panels....for all the reasons discussed.<br /><br />I simply think you are committing a bit of a logical fallacy here - false dichotomy? <br /><br />Your language in your responses seem to indicate that these "alternatives" discussed are woefully insufficient.....<br /><br />On one hand, it seems VERY evident that the NEC integrated system as discussed is easier to calibrate and much more difficult to flub your accuracy.....while other panels you have to add in variables to reach equal accuracy....which calibraiton system/software?...how good is it?....is it compatible with that particular panel? And indeed with the NEC system, you have it appears more control on variables independent of others, that with lower cost models, you do not..which is great.<br /><br />But here is my nugget of skepticism still:<br /><br />Can a person buy a given model such as a Dell wide gamut monitor...get a good calibration system (xrite i1 pro for example right?) and tinker with it to create an accurate display? It would appear (i think?) that your answer to this quesiton is a resounding NO ("Oh they work, they will produce an on-screen image") - but at the same time, your assertions as such appear to be based on no emperical testing of your own? Its reasonable enough to question TFT central's methodology, but dismissal of various monitors broadly without doing the research yourself? I may still be missing something, but I cannot get past this skepticism.<br /><br />Let me hark back to a quote from one of your articles and ask you another question:<br /><br />"Smart monitors that allows multiple target calibration aim points, with control over contrast ratio and white point settings per paper class is a desirable functionally for print to screen matching. That said calibrating to a single calibration target and placing greater emphasis on individual ICC profiles, using the soft proofing tables could still work well for less demanding and complex workflows."<br /><br />quoted from: <a href="http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/why_are_my_prints_too_dark.shtml">http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/why_are_my_prints_too_dark.shtml</a><br /><br />I may be misreading this and you can correct me...but it would appear that within your article you were giving some play to the idea of being able to still use something less than a "smart monitor" to get the job done for "less demanding and complex workflows"...??<br /><br />Out of curiousity, what did you mean by that...? Also, what would be an example of such a monitor you are referencing in the above quote (which would not be an NEC or an Eizo)?<br /><br />-------<br /><br />"the quality and choose of a display system is far, far more important than the CPU or amount of RAM, or how many drives it will hold"<br /><br />You keep saying this...are you talking to me? Because I can afford to buy both RAM, and a CPU, the NEC, and a quality printer...does not mean that I will always spring for the top of the line for all of these things. But I suspect that most of these questions come up due to budget constraints and then your point is more relevant and I suspect the masses of consumers probably are not 100% consistently prioritized and logical in such purchasing...but then again, many of these consumers are not just buying with only photography in mind...so that can muddy the waters...but I get your point I suppose.<br /><br /> I have found the NEC system enticing and will likely purchase it for all the good reasons discussed, but I do not consider my investigation into alternatives for my own "less demanding and complex workflows" to be as silly as comparing it to considering number of cup holders for a car rather than safety or fuel efficiency....<br /><br />Perhaps your dichotomy is warranted.....I am skeptical to believe categorically that all of these monitors (I mean wide gamut dells for example) below NEC are as woefully incapable as your language in this thread has made them to be....if they are I would like to know....but for the most part, I am supposed to believe this based on your expert opinion...which is useful to note, but still...I would like to see data and research that looks at such questions before such dismissal.....<br /><br />Having said all of that...I am (personally) not spooked much by the difference in cost to go the NEC route, and I like what I read about these monitors so far and their features...so that makes it easier and less stressful for me...<br /><br />But I can see how people on a tighter budget would consider something lower cost as a compromise.<br /><br />I think it is reasonable enough to point out poor prioritization of folks in their purchases...but honestly, you have to also understand where people are at, where they are coming from, and where they are going....that is, when a person had an idea to upgrade their CPU/RAM or whatever...perhaps at that time they thought this was useful to them...but did they have the knowledge needed to properly prioritize their spending to account for a proper wide gamut monitor? Did they even think of that at the time? Or did they later discover the importance of color accuracy, color management, etc once they became more interested in printing....but at that point it is post hoc...<br /><br />Andrew, I think this is not so much of the failure of individual enthusiasts...I think it is the failure of the industry....as a beginner, you are struggling just to figure out how to use your camera, how to get a proper exposure (yeah, I still struggle), basic and intermediate levels of post processing....<br /><br />Your whole point of view would seem to make sure that many folks learn early on of the importance of this topic, as you said, it is so critical...but so many other sources of information (including many on PN and other forums) do not come from the same place as you, so many beginners recieve differing advice...<br /><br />Folks are trying always to assimilate information to do their best....their intentions in my opinion are mostly attempting to be very critical....not just looking for cup-holders vs. gas mileage.....but in their attempts, could they simply be looking at cup-holders and not knowing it? SUre....but that is different than the consumer intentially saying "well, I want it to have cup holders, I care much less about fuel efficiency"....there in lies your bit of a straw man here....at best, people are ignorant to the facts, they are betrayed by various individuals or websites that have the appearance of being an authority on the matter...and the consumer makes what they think is an informed decision - and they most always do so thinking that they will acheive "WYSIWYG"....<br /><br />I say all this, because I think intention matters in how we characterize people...and I am pedantic so yeah :D</p>

<p>ordered that video series and have watched a couple episodes....so far looks to be very hands on, intuitive, and thorough.....gives me something to do in the late of the night for the next couple weeks...</p>

<p>David....your response answered my question perfectly! Thank you for that! Many times I ask such questions, and folks do not seem to get the context...<br /><br />I too noticed improved stability lately. Back when like you said, I remember just up and dropping out and the program "not responding"....luckily my editing at that point was not too lengthy...I would end up just losing 5-10 minutes of time....and I could get back to that point faster on the 2nd go around.<br /><br />I have been hovering around the idea of trying out LR for most of my global fixes and photo organization. <br /><br />I had been for a while, using some really old version of viewNX and it rendered my RAW files in preview perfectly....but when I upgraded a couple months ago, now the previewed photos look like dog s%$#t and after reading more online, its just something that is a bug....when you open them in capture NX2, they are back to looking great.<br /><br />This detail alone has frustrated my current workflow....I loved using viewNX to look through shots, many times in full screen, and now that is just crap.<br /><br />I have grown quite used to a few of the CNX tools and I will miss that....whit point/black point function, u-point tech I love for making "masks" and being a sort of a layering function with option to play with opacity...love it...its quick and I have become better at using it....but my attempts to print from NX2 has been buggy for some reason as well, and I have confirmed this with other users looking at threads here on PN....<br /><br />I dont know, its frustrating to think about this....<br /><br />But it seems as it relates to all of the book and video and other educational resources, LR and PS are used to teach it...so it will make more sense to start to tinker with those now...<br /><br />I guess I could drag my feet a bit longer and and keep building on my current skills....the one snippet from the preview video on that website from the vid you recommended mentioned learning a given skillset in digital darkroom and stick with it and dont jump around too much...perhaps I will take that advice for now and just see how things go....<br /><br />The idea that you pointed out that CNX could be shot down and us all in LR and PS, well, that would force my hand wouldnt it, lol.....<br /><br /><br /></p>

<p>I am viewing them using macbook pro, 2 or so years old, on safari....<br /><br />I can see some differences in color in the grass in viewing them on my monitor...<br /><br />I am indeed skeptical that NEC is without its problems as a possibility....and I am also skeptical about Andrew's dismissal of so many other brands that are lower in cost. I think his arguments though are sound and genuine....and honestly, as a non-expert myself on this subject - I am hardly an authority to judge pretty much at all....but it is quite apparent that besides a couple review sites that try and follow some form of routine and methodology in their testing, otherwise, there are various individual experts offering opinions online and of course many non-experts that without being incredulous, the viewer could mistake them as an expert.<br /><br />In matters of science in general, non-experts al almost always better off anchoring their opinions to a consensus of a larger group of experts...perhaps not entirely, but to some large degree.....but the quality of information on this topic available to consumers is not very good...and what good you may find is mixed in with so much noise....<br /><br />Its a recipe for confusion for newcomers.....<br /><br />Finding "the signal in the noise" I think given the overall quality of evidence on this subject is rather difficult.....or so it seems to me.<br /><br />If I go with NEC panel, ive already contacted amazon and a vendor through amazon and confirmed that if anything is not satisfactory, I can return for full refund within 30 days....<br /><br />Whatever monitor I end up with, it will be looked at carefully <br /><br />Thanks for all the consideration everyone...<br /><br /></p>

<p>thanks David - i too think andrews video clarifies such things<br /><br />ill check out that video series out for sure once i finish the book i started last week related to nature photography<br /><br />a bit pricey at 60 bucks but for 12 hours of instruction not bad at all<br /><br />question, my digital workflow (at the moment) is fairly simple....mainly capture NX2 for RAW editing, and occassionally PS elements for a bit of cloning, spot healing brush (I like it better than the NX2 version of the same tool for blemishes)....<br /><br />If I watch such a DVD will it make sense for an NX2 user? <br /><br />Sorry, a bit of a tangent for this, but I will be looking to evaluating my approaches as I try to do more printing this year. </p>

<p>the 2412 is not wide gamut.....comparing sRGB images between these two seems pointless....unless I am misunderstanding....<br /><br /><br />How can you showcase via photos on the net the differences in wide gamut vs. standard gamut by taking a side by side photo of the two monitors and posting that as sRGB on the www??<br /><br />You would need to see the monitors in person side by side.....or see prints in person side by side....or compare some form of data otherwise.<br /><br />These threads also seem to not at all address the root issue of "WYSIWYG".....<br /><br />I felt it really strange to read how people with enthusiasm stating something to the degree of "heck, I almost bought the dell 2413 or 2410 (wide gamuts), I went ahead and bought 2412 (standard gamut)".....</p>

<p>fascinating......<br /><br />problem in this area it seems, is that it is lacking in a big way in what mainstream science has (although it is not obviously perfect) and that is proper peer review and meaningful criticism of methods and proper gatekeepers as such to prevent publishing of data that is based on poor methodology.<br /><br />This (assuming you are correct, and I at this point am not going to take issue with this assumption tbh, have found your points persuasive) is unfortunately for consumers like myself.<br /><br />It leaves us just as incapable spectators hearing people that are presumably proper experts in this area to argue about the important minutia of such a complicated topic.<br /><br />It is simply much more comforting to have published data to prove a point (say that Dell 2410 cannot produce WYSIWYG) - but it would appear that such proper scientific data (not just anecdotal data) is not available to adequately asnwer these questions?<br /><br />In light of all of that, im going to go with NEC because of the anecdotal data that I can semi meta analyze todether from the web, I feel good that it will produce....this bit of comfort at a premium, but the rationale seems legit...and luckily I do have the cash so it wont be a strain - not the case for many enthusiasts....I feel sorry for them <br /><br />Thanks for the guidance and your expert opinion...I truly mean that...I hope you do not mind the inquisition - I appreciate your candor.</p>

<p>now to just decide 24 vs. 27 inch<br /><br />It will be hard to not just spring for the 27 inch - its very likely to happen :)<br /><br />Ill give you all an update in June.....</p>

I'll be brief as I am on iPhone - but what I heard was that you are not sure if te dells could give you "WYSIWYG"

 

You are skeptical but you are not empirically sure?

<p>My limited understanding in what I have read so far is that dE of >1 starts to get more and more progressively noticeable...from very very minor, perhaps nearly impercievable, to increasingly obvious.<br /><br />The TFT central site shows dE measurements of these various panels...the Dell 2410's was as I recall like 0.2 once calibrated (although in the review it was kinda weird and seemingly difficult to calibrate, worth pointing out perhaps). <br /><br />Are such values severely incorrect? I have no idea...it all has been a big rabbit hole to me...but im learning slowly here.<br /><br />Let me ask a more direct question - have you any emperical data Andrew that would back up the idea that monitors like the Dell 2410 or 2413 will not allow you to achieve WYSIWYG? Clearly as you have stated, they are not an equal to the NEC PA panels, TFT clearly state this as well....but they do not seem to go as far as suggesting that these lower cost alternatives are woefully unable and innacurate...your narrative seems much more dichotomous - that there are these monitors that will allow WYSIWYG and the one below that will very unlikely not.<br /><br />Again, if that is true, that is fine....but I am still processing how that could be the case...perhaps in the end it is too deep a rabbit hole for me to understand - which leaves people like me to take one opinion or the other almost entirely on authority...uncomfortable.<br /><br />Im pretty sold though on the NEC 241w at this point...it wont be too much of a strain on my budget...I have the money and I like how easy or near a "smart monitor" it is...but ultimately I am still curious if the difference for me is a bit superfluous to be honest...but I rather air on the side of spending a bit more (in my case) when I will be spending already a decent chunck already....ill still be able to pick up a printer a a couple months no prob...and in the meantime I think I have a lab with wider gamut printers I can tinker with (likely for near free). Should be fun.</p>

<p>Its not so much "cheaping out" that drives people to make this decision Andrew...it is the assumption that the NEC PA monitors...or standard vs. wide gamut...or whatever....that they would not realize a difference as such and thus the money spent would be superfluous.<br /><br />I have no issue with spending the money IF I find the arguments and rationale that it will indeed serve my desires more fully. So far, your arguments are winning the day, but at the same time, I like stress testing them and hopefully seeing how it holds up so that I can make as informed a decision as possible..<br /><br />It just seems that for many consumers (like myself) - there simly is enough information in reviews (TFT central, and others) that would make an enthusiast photographer feel comfortable buying such a budget monitor and that it would indeed give you quite reasonable color accuracy....<br /><br />If this assumption is quite wrong (which you seem to think it is) - then these review sites are doing a poor job.<br /><br />When they review the PA series, they play it up mainly to something professionals would want, thus the higher premium....<br /><br />I think you can see how that verbiage would lead people to not "cheap out"...but that it would make them say "well, im an avid enthusiast, but perhaps I would not realize the difference?"</p>

<p>IF I were to choose something like a dell 2410, it would not be because I was accepting a compromise that would not let me reasonably achieve WYSIWYG....instead it would be under the assumption that it in fact would let me do just that...<br /><br />Now wheter or not that assumption is accurate is what I am interested in discussing:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/dell_u2410.htm">http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/dell_u2410.htm</a><br /><br />"Pros<br>

Good colour reproduction once calibrated. 10-bit internal processing also helps ensure smooth gradients"<br /><br />It does however list under cons:<br /><br />"</p>

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<tbody>

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<td align="middle" width="50%" height="41">

<p>Inability to get decent calibration results from 'custom' profile</p>

</td>

</tr>

</tbody>

</table>

<p><br /><br />so perhaps that makes your point?</p>

<p>Andrew (and keep in mind I am not an authority on this subject) - but I am skeptical of the assertion that you cannot get "reasonable WYSIWYG" on a dell 2410 or 2713? Perhaps I am mistaken.<br /><br />I recall the tft central reviews as such, and the color accuracy were (as I recall) at least "reasonbly accurat"...<br /><br />Is there objective testing of such monitors that shows that these monitors are woefully inadequate for enthusiasts?</p>

<p>including p221w vs. dell 2410 + colormunki or whatever....</p>

<p>Nick, I know where you are coming from.<br /><br />To answer your question...yes...I can afford it....it will not be a huge burdeon really, BUT, that does not mean that I want to let the money go if I find it excessively superfluous.<br /><br />For better purposes of comparison Nick....when you say "LG IPS monitor"...which model are you thinking about....standard gamut, wide gamut?<br /><br />If we are talking about an LG example such as the Dell 2410 or some of the other "budget" varieties...then we are talking about 450 bucks for the monitor, 200 for the calibrations stuff (so we are talking about 600-700 bucks in the end)...does that sound about right?<br /><br />So the difference there with the NEC is 300 dollars - perhaps 400 depending on the specific 24 inch monitor.<br /><br />Now, if we are talking IPS standard gamut monitors in the 24 inch range, the savings are even more deep....<br /><br />Just want to be clear about what type of monitor that you feel will meet my needs?<br /><br />If we are talking about buying an even better printer than my current one...."a good epson printer"....them it is likely safe to say that its color gamut will be fairly noticeably larger than sRGB (im thinking like the epson 2880 perhaps? or R3000?) - in which case Andrew's argument for wide gamut is strong correct?<br /><br />Still, its worth considering.....say a dell 2410 + colormunki vs. NEC PA241 - these are not very comparable I understand.....but "for my purposes" - perhaps it would fit the bill just fine....<br /><br />Perhaps Andrew will highlight the functional difference between say the Dell 2412, Dell 2410, and NEC PA 241w as it relates to enthusiast photographers non-professionals?</p>

<p>kinda (at this point) thinks the PA241 w/ spectraview II will be what ill have the wifey get for me....400-500 bucks more for the 27 inch....a bit superfluous (for me) - I can pocket that money towards a printer upgrade....but I have a month to think it out still and see how the monies come together...<br /><br /><br /></p>

<p>also this blew my mind<br /><br /><a href="http://www.afximages.com/articles.php?article=WorkingColorProfile">http://www.afximages.com/articles.php?article=WorkingColorProfile</a><br /><br /></p>

<p>24 vs. 27 inch? You think I should sping for the 27?<br /><br />purchasing on amazon is legit I suppose...most people who order these get them via mail? I would hate for it to get f'ed up in transit? Packaging I presume from NEC should be adequate?<br /><br />I presume also that if I have a problem with the monitor a) amazon will accept a return pretty easy, and/or b) NEC will be helpful as well.<br /><br />any suggestions for processes to do myself for looking for quality problems when I do get the monitor?<br /><br />--------<br /><br />Also, at the moment, I use Capture NX2 - plan on delving into more so photoshop in the coming year or so...but it is safe to say that with capture NX2, the wide gamut NEC panel will be still be useful for the same reasons discussed (although I understand PS does perhaps many many things NX2 will not do).<br /><br />Thanks for your advice so far....its going to be a happy B-day :D</p>

<p>on an unrelated note Andrew, you seem to be quite the guru on this subject on the interwebs :)<br /><br />Its fascinating to see you challenge incorrect information on various threads and the reactions by others....lol....</p>

<p>Im not at home currently...Ill have to tinker with it tonight and see if I can find it...would be interesting to see it compared to sRGB...thanks for your help so far..ill provide that info this evening....<br /><br />What is your thoughts on 24 inch vs. 27 inch NEC PA...27 inch offers higher resolution and obviously more real estate for easier viewing/editing....obviously at a cost though...<br /><br />Do these NEC panels have a longer life than the lower cost panels? Seems like I could make the argument to myself to help further justify the higher cost if the lifespan of this monitor is even longer than one that is 400 bucks cheaper...well, at least in part. You think?</p>

<p>"Usually Epson installs them with the driver (deep in a package). "<br /><br />silly question, but you mean it was originally deep within the original packaging? If so, that crap is likely quite gone...<br /><br />How can I now get an ICC profile for this printer....may be moot point though...my guess is, is that if I am wanting to make quality BW and color prints, this may be insufficient for me....ie need an upgrade...it does have like 6 inch cartridges...but not sure if that in of itself says much about quality of final print...surely cost of the printer and underlying technology will be more reflective of that?<br /><br />I would think a 5 year old 150 dollar printer at this point will be silly sitting next to my new PC and NEC PA display, lol....that is, it may be worth investing this year in a new printer....will ask for one for xmas perhaps :)</p>