lindsay_dobson

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Megan, in your opening post you state: "i only a student and this was only one of my first weddings"<br>

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... then on page 3 this is your comment: "ive done several weddings of my own before that went great"<br>

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I'm not sure you're being entirely candid with us. <br>

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Many trained, professional photographers guarantee their work. That means that if the client isn't happy when they view the images they will refund their fee (and thus terminate any further dealings with that client, who cannot then retain the right to order or take receipt of images they have essentially rejected). Very few professionals I know have ever been in that position, but I am amazed you are resisting giving your clients a full refund, given the circumstances - which are of course that you are a student, inexperienced, probably uninsured, bereft of a workable contract etc etc, and reluctant to show us examples of your wedding photography. Do what is required to close this matter as quickly and painlessly as possible. The majority of wedding photographers work for free, on a limited expectation basis, while building up their portfolio and skillset. Those who don't can unfortunately end up in your situation - pressured by low rent cheap clients whilst at the same time bringing the industry into disrepute and tarring us all with the brush of incompetency and lack of professionalism. <br>

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If you really feel the shots are great however, then another option is to obtain a couple of independent appraisals from prominent industry professionals, preferably those associated with the leading photographic bodies. <br>

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<p>Full time, but I'm a portrait photographer and I no longer have much involvement in weddings.</p>

<p>As you can see Andy, competency and business understanding will take time to master. Don't take on any weddings, even unpaid ones, until you've had some training and have a basic understanding of the flow and demands of a wedding (both technical, creative and logistical). Given you're in the South of England I can recommend Damien Lovegrove. Look him up, he's in North Somerset - a true master and an inspirational teacher.</p>

<p>Lastly, don't count on a pro taking you under their wing. That may have been the case a couple of decades back, but times have changed and the competition now is beyond fierce. The wedding pros I know tend to have a partner or family member trained up as their second shooter. I'm not saying it's impossible to get work as a second, but you'll have to really stand out from the crowd in both skill set and attitude.</p>

<p>My FAQ is quite comprehensive and forms part of my e-brochure which is sent to pre-qualified enquirers (in other words, we've had a chat on the phone). Clients like it, everything is cleared up in one hit, and more importantly it forms a reference point during or after the process. My Contracts are also quite detailed (though easy to read) and act as information sheets as well as business terms. This way the client has everything they need to know in two clearly set out documents, from the outset. Conversations can be misunderstood or forgotten, and so I find hard copy invaluable. I don't want clients coming to me with a great long list of repetitive questions which eat into our time - I'd rather focus on what they want from the photography, and how we're going to achieve it.</p>

<p>There are some very nice (girly but functional) items here: <a href="http://shootsac.com/">http://shootsac.com/</a></p>

<p>"As Zach and Jody Gray suggest I do it to their first dance music which I ask about in the client questionnaire in advance so I don't have to remember it from the night of their wedding. My understanding is that you can only legally use this music if you do NOT charge for this disc. It can only be a gift if you are giving a DVD. I think if you are just showing it on your computer or ipad it is ok, but obviously you wouldn't be charging for that."<br>

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I appreciate laws vary in different jurisdictions, but you may want to double check that Vail. 'Commercial usage' is not always distinguished by the handing over of money, but more by the association with a business, brand or service. The music I use on one of my sites, and during viewings, requires that I license the music for that purpose. It would not in any way fall under 'personal or domestic usage' and I suspect the law may be similar in your neck of the woods.</p>

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<p>Skylar, I appreciate your response, and rest assured you did not insult me in any way. If you are able to earn a good full-time living from your photography then it can be argued that is justification enough. In a collection of wedding images, you have as you say presented a number of photographs which are more classic and more flattering, and chances are these are the images your bride will choose. Taking some shots "for you" is fine, as you say it is your prerogative. But a forum such as this which is open to all, from beginners to professionals, will result in a far kinder critique that you would receive on a pro only site.</p>

<p>One of the key things you'll see over and over again (where the finest and most successful documentary photographers are concerned) is this: they never show the client an unflattering image, or one which may depict the client (or the photographer for that matter) in a poor way. A shot can be honest, it can be shocking even, it can convey a gamut of emotions - but it should also demonstrate some technical understanding of the subject and good use of the environment, because otherwise the obvious flaws within the shot will obviate everything the photographer is trying to achieve. That is all I am trying to say to you Skylar. I always advise getting the basics straightened out before letting the whole "I am an artist" notion take over.</p>

<p>Will, clarity is everything in business. Having clear, easy to understand Operating Procedures will make everyone's life much easier, believe me. You may need to be flexible on occasion, for example if your client has a disability or illness, but otherwise you must stick to the rules. It is your business after all, you make those rules for the benefit of your clients and your studio. Good luck, and let us know how things go.</p>

<p>Kind regards,<br>

Lindsay</p>

<p>Skyler, it's important to detach yourself from your work, at least to an extent. I see this all the time when I judge or mentor new photographers - many find it hard to accept constructive critique because they are too attached to their own shots, even those lacking any merit. If you think your client will like it (and you know her better than we do) then by all means show it to her. But I wouldn't. An image can be "honest" and also well crafted. One of the hardest parts of developing your skills lies with self critique - you may be happy to show this to your client today, but I hope that in a year or two you'll be of a different mind. </p>

<p>Will: "Hello XXX, I'm just calling to let you know the images from your shoot are ready to view, I'm really looking forward to showing them to you!"</p>

<p>Client: "I'm busy, can't you just send me a link to an online gallery so I can look at them when it suits me?"</p>

<p>Will: "No, as per our brochure and earlier discussion, I don't do that for a number of reasons. The images have been shot and processed with considerable care and it's vitally important that you see them as they will appear in print. Our in-house viewing equipment is properly calibrated for this purpose. And you'll see our range of beautiful finished products. I've got some great ideas for some of the photographs which I think you will love".</p>

<p>Client: "But how will my family get to see the pictures, they don't live nearby so they can't come to your studio"</p>

<p>Will: "No problem, we can put a viewing gallery up in a few weeks, for a limited time. But we don't do that in the first instance because it's vital that you, the client, see the images at the right size and on colour corrected screens. Are you free next week?"</p>

<p>Client: "Right, fine, is there a slot on Tuesday?" <br>

OR: "Sorry, I'm too busy to come to see you"</p>

<p>Will: "So you are aware, as per the terms of our Contract we aim to hold images for XX months from the date of your shoot, but we cannot guarantee their availability beyond that. We'll look forward to hearing from you when your schedule is a little better".</p>

<p>You don't need to persuade the client to come in for a personal session William. You simply tell them that is your policy, and you make that clear at the outset. It really is that simple. If they don't value their investment enough to give up a little time, then do you really want those clients? </p>

<p>I only waive the in-house consultation if the client is several hours away, in which case we can conduct things via skype, and with product videos to support an online gallery. If I have to travel that far for a shoot, I go armed with plenty of beautiful samples to whet their appetite - often spending decisions are made before I even get my camera out (I speak as a portrait photographer, but the basic principle of creating desirability is the same).</p>

<p>What Nadine has said (with the exception of discounts - I prefer to offer incentives).</p>

<p>William, you are running a business, presumably to generate profit from which you can actually eat and pay your bills. So you must maximise your opportunities, and create the conditions under which your clients will want to buy the work they have commissioned you to provide. Clients also need a lot of help and guidance when it comes to choosing the right products, remember all this is new to them, and they are not photographers or graphic designers. A key part of my presentation is an "ideas list" because it is quite unreasonable to expect your customers to know how the work should be finished and presented. Putting plenty of suggestions on the table will make the process as painless and pleasant as possible, for all concerned.</p>

<p>There's nothing wrong with putting the images online after the client has made their purchases, so that others can order if they wish to.</p>

<p>I wouldn't have wasted any time on this image, I would have binned it. Aside from the many distractions, the expressions are just awful. The bride appears to be snarling and her eyes are turned too far, not very attractive. Sorry, but you did ask. And the broad lighting does nothing for either of them. </p>

<p>If you don't have sound social photography experience then I doubt you'll get taken on as a second shooter for weddings. A wedding second shooter usually has a solid skillset and a style comparable to the lead pro. There is also massive competition for the few assisting outings that do exist. The most usual route, here in the UK, is to get some good industry training under your belt then shoot for friends/family etc for free. Build your portfolio from there. Understanding the business side is equally important. Good wedding trainers include Gerry Ghionis, Gordon McGowan, Damien Lovegrove, Jeff Ascough, Stuart Bebb and many more. If you're serious about weddings then joining an organization like the SWPP/BPPA can reap huge dividends (if you have the right attitude). Their convention is in January each year in London - it's quite an event, with all the top pros from around the globe sharing their knowledge via seminars and master classes. </p>

<p>Well Matthew, there you have it. Effective and polite communication will almost always reap dividends and as you can see photographers are almost always very understanding. Hopefully on seeing the images again you may even feel that a re-shoot is unnecessary. And if it is, please be aware that it costs the photographer quite a hit in fixed overheads just to step out of the door, and for every hour she shoots there will be many more hours spent downloading, backing up, editing and processing. However if the re-shoot is in lieu of other post wedding photography then as you say it will not take up any time above what was previously agreed. I hope your wife also appreciates the lengths your photographer is going to in order to satisfy her, given what I have said in my previous post.</p>

<p>Nadine - thanks for the clarification, sorry for any misunderstanding.</p>

<p>I misread Nadine's post then I offer my apologies. </p>

<p>I fully agree that instructing the photographer to hold back the album is the best way forward, I alluded to that in my response. The photographer should not be insisting that it goes to press right now, if indeed that is what she is doing. I think the OP should put something to that effect in writing as soon as possible and send it to the photographer via registered post together with a request for a discussion regarding possible remedies. There seem to be some pieces missing from the story and perhaps the OP will return with some clarification. Perhaps the OP just needs to be firmer, or maybe the requests might be better served if they come from his wife who is well placed to explain the problem to the photographer.</p>

<p>Nadine - why are you recommending (twice) that the OP requests 'compensation' from the photographer? That doesn't make any sense. The photographer has done nothing wrong but is apparently being punished for the fact that the client failed to tell the makeup artist on the day that the base was too light - brides are usually facing a mirror during their preparations and they are normally vocal if something is amiss. Second, the OP and his wife will, I presume, have seen the pictures in order to choose images for their album. If the photos were unappealing then clearly that would be the time to speak up - not that the photographer is obliged to act or 'compensate' them in any way. As I said, requesting that the photographer holds onto the album is probably best at this stage while they decide whether they wish to pay (in full) for a re-shoot or pay for additional retouching. </p>

 

<p>I've not had a chance to read the entire thread and I have ignored any references to blaming any third parties and extorting compensation - that is both unnecessary and distasteful. It's likely what I'm about to say has been covered, but this is my take on things:</p>

<p>OP - whilst your wife was having her makeup applied, and through the period which followed, she will have been looking in a mirror quite often. It will have been clear to her at this point if the makeup was too light. Therefore it is the client's responsibility to speak up if they feel something is amiss. The makeup artists I've met all ask the client periodically if their eyes/base/lipstick is how they want it and adjustments are then made, and all the brides I've met are forthcoming in feedback as things progress. I'm afraid that responsibility lies with your wife.</p>

<p>Second, I presume you and your wife will have seen the pictures before choosing the images for your album. That would be the time to point out the makeup and ask if the photographer could tone it down appropriately.</p>

<p>In terms of remedies, if the photographer has not yet sent the album to print then I see no problem with asking her to hold on to it while you're deciding what you want to do. Paying the photographer to re-stage some of the images (or retouch them) is a reasonable request but you may have to wait a little while for the wedding season to present a slot for this.</p>

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<p>Sarah, I'll not add to the excellent points raised by the others, but I will ask if you've considered what happens after the photography is over? Do you have the skill, time, equipment and software which will be necessary to sort, edit and retouch the photographs? You will then need a way of showing them to the couple. What final delivery method have they asked for? Obviously putting them on a disc is the most straightforward way of doing things, if you are not expected to provide hard copy items. Remember that you will need a calibrated monitor in order to get the colour balance right on-screen, and access to a very good lab if they want prints. I will also add that you really should have liability insurance, if it appears in any way that you are there in some kind of formal capacity (the fact you're not being paid will not necessarily protect you) you could end up into serious trouble if you knock someone over as you're moving around taking pictures, or if someone trips over you or your equipment.</p>

<p>It sounds like you are woefully under-skilled, under-experienced, and under-equipped. The advice to attend as a "guest with a camera" is the best advice you could be given, I would go down that route if I were you. </p>

<p>Make sure you have enough insurance - and you'll be well advised to add indemnity insurance as well if you haven't already got it. </p>

<p>It sounds obvious, but wear your most comfortable shoes and make sure you have access to water and regular snacks to keep your sugar up. Take a spare top in case something gets spilled on you. Take more cards and batteries than you think you will need. Take a copy of the contract/paperwork with you, in case you have to point anything out to your clients, including a copy of your insurance certificate should the venue request to see it. Double check your ISO each time you move from inside to out and vice versa. Make sure your voice is friendly and firm when directing the groups, and can be heard - you need to be in control. </p>

<p>My clients only see images which are fully representative of our final product. </p>

<p>I completely agree. </p>

<p>As I said, perhaps your friends can offer something tangible and useful of equal value in return. When my car breaks I can't drive it until I've saved enough to get it fixed. It would not occur to me to ask for or expect free work from my mechanic or any other service provider. I find it morally unacceptable that I should benefit when others pay, simply because of the life-path I've chosen to follow. </p>

<p>Are you/your friends expecting the other vendors/suppliers to offer pro bono work as well? Again, it may be that members of your community can help with that - but consider that professional photographers will have invested tens of thousands of pounds/dollars in building their skills, equipment, insurances etc and their earnings are now lower than ever. Photographing a wedding isn't just about a few hours work on the day - there is all the preparation and planning, the stress of the day itself, the editing and processing, proofing and delivery/design of the finished product etc. It seems Amy has realised this and understandably feels out of her depth. It is a very big undertaking and one where the photographer is unavailable to a paying client whilst he/she is working for your friends. Not many people can afford to take that amount of time out, even if they wanted to - most of the pros I know invest a good 40 hours or more in each wedding client when it's all added up. Perhaps a newcomer with a day job to pay the bills might be a better bet, since they might be able to give up a weekend and some evenings - you need somebody who actively wants to build a wedding portfolio. That way they are getting something back, but as I mentioned before there is the risk that the results may not be of a high standard. </p>

<p>It is possible to find a cheap photographer, though generally you get what you pay for. Your friends could save a little (though not much) if they ask for a disk of images which they can print themselves and make their own album if they wanted to. But that requires a decent IT system and some know-how, and it doesn't suit everyone. </p>

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<p>Ann, I think your best option is for Amy to shoot the wedding with the kit she has, and a written agreement with regards to coverage and delivery, and of course a disclaimer about her lack of relevant experience. Your friends must understand that a novice or student is unlikely to provide merchantable images, but may be able to provide a basic record of the day. </p>

<p>The bottom line is that if we can't afford something then we don't really have the right to expect it for free. How far would that get us if we wanted a plumber to work for nothing, or a garage to service our car without payment? Why should photographers be seen as likely providers of free services? Most social photographers have some extremely high overheads and it costs us a fair whack just to walk out the door. Some photographers are able to do free work for the people closest to them, or the causes they support, so that should be the route your friends go down. And perhaps your friends can offer that person payment in kind, by way of their own skill-sets - for example if they have an IT background, accountancy qualifications or other professional skills. Then it's not quite so one-sided. </p>

<p>Crystal, the Tamron 17-50 f2.8 it would be a very good lens for you to invest in, it's quite cheap and it's great quality. </p>