lee_ricks

18-70. It is sharp, takes knocks well, and seems to be the perfect zoom range for you. I have published hundreds of picures taken with one. If a few more bucks works there is no better "walking around" lens than the 18-200 AFS-vr.

 

Don't worry so much about distortion. PS will fix it for you if you even notice it. And most of the time you won't.

Tom. I am glad you posted that picture. I hope Antonio looks at it with 'new eyes'. It is a good picture, done beautifully, would work nicely in a newspaper or magazine but most importantly....It is of a very important event, makes us think about an important issue and will make the people in the picutre very happy indeed. THAT is what I call professional.

"I can think of poor wedding photographers, and even some good ones, that present their work like it was unique in the world and they make you pay 6000 bucks for a digital roll and a couple of hours work (at least they could use film...); "artists" that sell stuff that has been done dozens of times by other artists before them and they present it in a gallery like it was something new, and they get paid for it, and critics say the most incredible things about it..."

 

Read what you wrote Antonio. Allow me to ask you to consider that this thread is, for you, not about photography but rather about your current situation with music. I don't think there are many wedding photogs who are getting $6K for a CD. Maybe five or six hundred but they are aimed squarely at the audience that can't pay $6K. Do you really have any idea how many hours are involved in putting together a comprehensive wedding? In some cases, full time for a week and spread over a month or more. Shall we talk expenses from that hypothetical $6K? And it is a precious few who command these prices going in. What would you have to pay to get a classical musician to play for 40 hours? If they are any good at all probably more than that.

 

Next you are angry at photographers selling picures that have been done before. Do you complain when I decide to pay to hear Beethoven's Symphony No. 9 in D minor? It has been done to death. If it gives me joy to listen to it, whay is that bad? So a guy buys an average figure study and puts it in his office because it makes him happy. You think the photographer is a rapacious anti-artistic conjurer because his figure study doesn't meet your artistic standards?

 

Allow me to say this about critics. Most people feel about them the same as they do about politicians. I think it was W. Churchill who said: "The difference between a politician and a statesman is that a statesman agrees with you."

 

I never begrudge another photographer his/her moment of fame. Obviously SOMEONE thought they were doing something nice and who am I to say they are wrong.

 

...! My grandfather used to tell me how people after the II World War were much more altruistic and they used to really help each other a lot because everybody had very little. That's why artists, musicians, writers etc. were great, because that's all they had to think about.

 

Where did your grandfather live? I remember the 1950's right from the start and I can tell you we were rolling in dough. in 1953 the US owned 95% of the world's money. There was nothing altruistic about the WWII generation after the war. They virtually defined the American desire for acquisitiveness. It was the time of the man in the business suit driving one of his two cars to work. And keeping up with the Joneses was the order of the day.

 

I can see your frustration about the world situation today. It may be little comfort but I can tell you it was the Depression in the 30's, the war in the 40's, Communism in the 50's, Nuclear War in the 60's, Peace Love Dope in the 70's and so on.

 

Lord willing and Jesus tarries we will continue through one crisis after another until long after you and I are dead. It sounds to me like you need Photography to give you peace. Why screw it up by trying to make it a business. Just try not to be so hard on those of us who have to do all of the little 'eaches' that go along with making a living from it. We are not bad people. Neither are musicians who are just not quite Mozart. We still make other people happy.

Check out this web site for inspitation.

 

http://www.divinedesignphotography.com/contact.html

You are the man. Wonderful job. They will be very proud of the pictures. What a dream come true.

This is not an English class. If you wish to grade papers become a school teacher. Otherwise be polite and leave the adults alone. Even my professors at Princeton and Berkley knew when to press that point. You may have too much anger to do forums. Try to avoid the personal attacks.

 

I could go down the line with you again but I will only hit one comment you made. You said: "If you like selling better than photography, I think you are in the wrong business." Let me correct you. What you should have said is...if you like photography and not selling for God's sake give up on the idea of being a professional photographer. Unless you want to work for someone else. I don't like selling better than photography. I like people better than photography.

OK Christina. Listen to what Art said. He is dead on. I will go so far as to say that it is too early in your career with this to rely on automated marketing. Your best bet is to go literally door-to-door with the photographers you want to reach. Start locally and branch out.

 

To do this you need to consider what you are selling to photographers. It is not your talent or creativity. (Though that is great and shines through in your work.) It is - how selling your product to their clients will make them more money, give them happier clients, enhance thier professional standing and help them enjoy thier jobs more.

 

Before you make your first call for an appointment (and that is a good idea) have a good script. A short message that will get the prospective clients interest up front and spur them to agree to an appointment. Expand on this:

 

"We have a beautiful process that your current clients will love that will help you expand your portrait business, broaden your product offering and make you more money from the same clients while not requiring you to make an additional investment in time or money."

 

 

Or. "How would you like to turn work you did last year into profits again this year? We have an idea that will let you market past work to your former clients in a new and exciting way with virtually no out-of-pocket investment on your part."

 

You may not like these spur of the moment ideas but you get the drift. Figure out what this product does for your customer. And remember that your customer is the photographer not the person in the picture. So your pitch is about what you can do for the photographer/studio.

 

When you get the appointment go there prepared. Show them how they can make turn that picture of the doctor's new office building into a painting for the lobby. Have an example. Tell them the words they can say to do this:

 

"Hey doc. This is Lee the guy who photographed your beautiful new office last month. I just ran across something unique and when I saw it I thought it might be perfect for you.........."

 

So what are you doing? You are showing them not only something they can sell but also showing them how easy it is to sell it.

 

The bottom line is that now you are in sales person mode. Learn to do that. Get a good book on selling. Try Lee DuBois book "Everyone Sells" if you can find it. If you can't just about any of the serious books on the subject will do. Take a seminar if you can. The Chamber of Commerce can tell you when they are.

 

I like the personal approach. We are besieged with emails and snail mail. If you find a studio you want go for it. I bet you will find it fun. We photographers/artists should already be over the first hurdle any sales person must jump. We sure now how to handle rejection and keep on truckin'.

Tom: I am writing a book about it not to put to fine a point on it. Never the less. Now who is being defensive? If you don't want to do wedding then by all means get out of the way and let the folks who do make their living at it. I am not offended by your dislike for the process. There are parts of it I dislike too. Just don't compain when we cash the checks.

 

Your post makes my point beautifully. You said: "I'll be an assistant, and a second shooter, but keep the damn bride away from me... and her Mother? Just shoot me if I have to have 50 emails and six meetings and listen to that obsessive blather about "it's the most important day of my life, it has to be PERFECT..." Well that is a big part of what the wedding business is about. And the "art" a good wedding photographer applies to this part of the equasion is in many ways as important as the pictures he/she takes.

 

There is no magic answer about how to market your photography to your clients. Just solid techniques, used by other successful professionals to sell services of all types. Successfull salespeople are not masters of some magic formula. They have specific things they say and do that causes a customer or potential customer to reach a favorable opinion of them and decide to buy. It is called salesmanship. It is not a talent. It is an acquired skill. I have a friend who is a marvelous photographer. Far better than I am. Yet he lives from gig to gig. He has a great web site and would photograph a maneur factory if it paid anything. He has attended seminar after seminar. He has a BFA in photography. He has spent a fortune on equipment and training. So he asked me why he continued to struggle. I asked him one question. How many salesmanship seminars have you attended? The silence came up like thunder. So he bought me a few dinners and we went through the process step-by-step, word-by-word. Once he knew the words to say and not to say his selling got easier and his customers had more fun. More business. Less work. Far less frustration.

 

I thought my characterization of Antonio's question was quite fair. I disagree that ASMP is filled with people succeeding only on artistic vision. There are a few but damned few. Most are savvy marketers or full time employees of someone else.

 

I don't consider how much money a photographer makes or how often he is sold or published as a good measure of his success. For me a person is a success when they are personally happy with thier life and their art. But that wasn't the question. Again the title of this thread is "How do you make a living with photography....." That is an entirely different question.

 

But since you want to discuss absurd statements, try this "But I believe that if you try with the emphasis on the LLCs and Quickbooks and NOT on the artistic integrity/vision, you are doomed to failure or perhaps the type of success that drives you to early and frequent divorce, excess in your personal life and the sort of gnawing ennui that makes men and women bitter to the end." Speak for yourself. You may have some personal deamon you are trying to exorcize through photography but most people don't. You may find financial success and business acumen as precursors to mental colapse but I assure you are not in the majority in that opinion.

 

Taking pictures made me happy. Some pictures more than others but all of them had some appeal. So after a couple of other careers I decided to do it for money. I did not want to be a paid hobbiest. I wanted it all. Commercial success and professional recognition. But absolutely most of all I enjoyed making people happy with my work. If I could get them in the paper or make them look beautiful or help make their important events successful or even sometimes show them the horror of the world they live in and incite them to do something about it, well that is all good to me.

 

Taking pictures can be a deeply personal and important expericence. Seeing what you have created and thinking about what and why you did it can offer important personal insights. My own images should speak to me. But they are like the songs Antonio plays when he is alone. They are pure joy. Art is another thing altogeather. Art is a shared experience. And in the end, at least for me, it is really all about people. At least the important part is.

 

 

Package 2 sounds like it came from a company called Cameta. If so, they are a great company. I have done business with them several times. Give them a call and ask for the price of the exact items you want away from Ebay. You may be surprised.

 

I absolutely love the VR lens. It might make a very good wedding lens particularly in those venues where flash is not allowed.

Tom - Perhaps I am defesive about this subject. And perhaps I expressed myself badly. Look at Antinio's original post. He asked:

"In a world filled with professional photographers of all kinds how can we keep beeing ourselves and succeed without doing weddings or selling our pictures over the internet? If we have great original ideas and projects, can we attract the attention of viewers without having to be friends with the usual politician or similar? I guess my question is: can we succeed as artists counting only on our artistic vision and beliefs?"

 

The whole concept offended me to some degree. In essense the question is "how can I make a good living at photography, photographing only what I want to and that only as I wish to photograph it, in such a way that my photos will attract attention of the art world and afford me universal acclaim without my having to deal with art critics, galery owners, art directors, customers and the like.?" I could have simply posted - you can't. I thought that would not be helpful.

 

We are responsible for our own happiness and sadness. He can choose to see the day-to-day work of a professional photographer as drugery and selling out. In that case he will be miserable and should continue as a musician. No sense in ruining two good hobbies. Or he can choose to see each photograph as an opportunity to inject his own vision and artstic style into the work. I looked at his portfolio. His violin pictures are good examples of product shots. He has an eye for the geometric and a sense of the minimal I like. Can these not be incorporated in an advertizement for a door knob? Can he not use his eye for beauty in the obvious in a wedding gig?

 

He seems to disparage the idea of shooting weddings. Perhaps it is this disdain for the task that he should explore. If he finds the work of wedding photographers mundane and uninspired perhaps he should do a couple and see if he can offer a new and exciting view.

 

Anthonio (apologies for talking about you this way Antonio) is an accomplished musician. As that, he is a performer. Performers should, of all people, remember who the performance is for. It is for the audience. Truly great performers all share this in common...that they enjoy turning on an audience. I remember someone asking a famous pianist if the piano is his favorite sound. He said it was his second favorite. Right behind applause.

 

Perhaps he should look at why he wants to make the images in the first place. Is it the joy of photography or is it the desire to explore some specific artistic point of view. His portfolio is not very esoteric. (That or I don't see it.") It is general.

 

Antonio asks: "My point is: is it possible today to be appreciated only for our artistic value or are others the factors that determine wether we are good or worthless? Maybe all an artist needs is just a lot of luck?"

 

Well. Appreciated by whom? Of course one can be appreciated only for artistic value. There are many people on this forum who I greatly admire for their skill and talent. My guess is that many of them have never made a cent from photography. Here we are confusing three things. The appreciation by one or more individuals for ones artistic creation, commercial success and artistic acclaim. Since the title of the tread begins "How do you make a living....." this is the wrong question to ask in the first place.

 

Here is the bottom line: In the photography business artistic expression is just one of the things a customer buys. They buy the whole package. Just like any other product. You can be the best pooch photographer in the world but if you can't sell that idea to enouh people you will not make a living. If you treat the customers as if their ideas don't matter and must be subordinated to your sense of artisic purity you are in trouble from the start.

 

If I had a son wanting to go into this business I would give him this advice. Learn to do it all. You can't say you don't like it until you have explored it. Listen to the experts and critics. They can only make you better. Respect the work of other photographers. Just because you can't see the genius in it doesn't mean it is not there. But most importantly remember who you are making pictures for. If you can't find at least some of your joy in making others happy then you do not respect them enough to be a professional photographer.

 

(Tom: I considered posting some pictures here and may in the future. For now I am not much into that sort of thing.)

I like the site. Let me make a suggestion.

 

You want people to go to your site to consider using you as a photographer. What have you done to convince them that working with YOU is different, relaxed, and fun? Tell them about the wonderful experience they will have working with you. How you are on time. Never embarrassing and totally professional in your approach.

 

Use your site to suggest some fun things they might also do. You may send your web address to a recored executive but in wandering around he may find out that you do, for example, maternity photography. Since his wife may be pregnant.....

 

Why not a page that says...Did you ever want to.... and post some ideas you have. Maybe photograph someone in costume. Maybe a portrait session after a spa day. You get the idea.

 

Your site is a sales tool. Make sure you use the opportunity to sell. Lot's of pictures are fine but the ones you paint in words already have the prospective client in them. At least in their imagination.

 

My site contains a page about what it is like to work with me. Even though it is a private and password protected site I still realize that the people I give access to will have concerns about the experience they anticipate. Why not put them at ease early on.

 

Take a look at your site and remember the most important thing. It is an interactive advertizement.

Antonio honestly. Are you a musical artist or a violin player? Are you paid for your music. The day you cashed that first pay check did your artistic ability and motivation go down the drain. No offense but you sound like a college philosophy major.

 

Rembrandt made paintings for money. Some of the ones we like the best he was commissioned to do. Does that make them not art?

 

You ask "if I decided to give myself to photography and make a living with it should I rely only on my supposed talent, artistic and technical abilities or I would have to brown my nose a little?" Well yea. You will have to try and please the customer. Why do you discount their sense of the artistic as being something less than your own? Did you take art classes? Did you take photography classes? Did you learn? Are you so arrogant as to beleive you have some unique take or a genetically generated artistic point of view? I can assure you it is nurture not nature. You learned all of the pieces from someone else. You just assemble them to your own taste.

 

Artistic integrity is the biggest alabi in the art world. If the critics don't like your work all you have to do is claim they don't understand your unique artisic point of view. If no one buys your work simply maintain that your artistic integrity demands that you not sell out to the man. After all. It can't be art if you set out to make money on it. Yet. All great artists sell their work. Period. And it is not automatic. Today a dog with a note in his mouth could sell a Rembrandt. Not true in Amsterdam in 1635. In those days the man was selling his ass off. And doing quite nicely I might mention.

 

I am insulted when people blythly dismiss my work as not artistic because I combine it with good business sense and a serious work ethic. I am astonished when someone says it is selling out to care what my clients think of my work. I would call that the very measure of a professional.

 

So now you refer to "the usual politicians". Do you mean gallery owners? Art critics? Art directors? Do you dismiss their wealth of knowledge as mere politics? Here is a hint from the food chain. The world is full of talented artists. They suffer in onscurity because either they are too proud, too ignorant or too frightened to learn from the experts.

 

There are a lot of self proclaimed professional photographers. Some are quite proficient. And then there are the real professionals. The ones with vibrant and growing businesses. They are networking, making friends as well as clients and well known in thier community. When they do a one-man show they can pack the joint. They can show their unique viewpoint, indulge in their passion and in all probability get the recognition they deserve. Why? Because a lot of people respect their work and want to see more of it.

 

Why don't you try following your muse. Don't sell out your artisitc inegrity. Be true to your craft. Then when you have a couple of hundred framed gallery quality prints try and get a serious show. We will all see your work. If we happen to stop for lunch at the right sandwich shop.

 

Sorry to put the flamethrower on you. Your very premise is an insult to workong professional photographers. And I am one of them. There is nothing mutually exclusive about selling photography and producing an artistic body of work. Homework assignment. Go to the store and buy a National Geographic. Then tell us all how unartistic and commercial it all is.

You have hit on an important point Gerry. This young photographer you describe with what you and I would maintain are inappropriate clothes for a business environment illustrates the point. I like to define a professional as someone who thinks of the client first, last and always. Whatever is necessary to instill in the client a sense of trust and confidence is part of that professionalism. The first impression sets the tone for this. Too bad that it sometimes limits our personal expression but this process is about the client. I also like your mention of the meeting in the client's home. This is hugely important. One should never 'sell' out of bounds. By this I mean one must get where the client is comfortable and relaxed. Home is the perfect place. The photographer can ask the client to have a few pictures of themselves that they really like available to go over together. Get a sense of what they like. I give them homework. ...Check out the bridal magazines and bring me a couple of pictures you really admire.... It is great to have all of the players if possible. How can you know too much about your client?

 

Should we use a computer or prints? I like prints. There is something formal and elegant about them. Preferably in an albumn. And not too many. Just a few to instill confidence in your ability and more importantly to see what they respond to.

 

Finally though it goes without saying the photographer should be as well dressed as everyone else in the wedding. That is part of being unobtrusive and professional. I have seen the type you describe. I have even seen them dress that way at the wedding. It is a shame and an insult to the client.

 

Scot said "And most consumers are probably pleased by mediocre wedding or portrait shots."

 

No they are not. Sometimes they don't complain but they have seen better and they know the difference. A portrait is a dream in the making. The photographer's job is to put that dream on film. I did a portrait the other day of a girl who was a sophomore photography student at local University. When I showed her result she broke down. She said she did not think she was that pretty. I'm no Annie Leibovitz for sure but... that is the deal isn't it? The damn shame is that a person may go through life with a self image reinforced by mediocre Walmart portraits or a CD full of wedding pictures. This girl learned what I consider a really important lesson that day. I bet she never takes a portrait session lightly again. God forbid someone's wedding.

We are at this again. I like Ellis' response.

 

I do nudes. Sometimes it turns me on. Sometimes it is hard work.

 

Every session contains elements of all of it. Some is art and I show it to people as such. Some turns out to be cheesecake andsome people like that too. Most is crap or failed lighting/posing and it gets deleted. Every once in a while a session is hot as hell. As Jimmy Buffet said "Turning on the people is a very nice thing to do".

 

Try looking at it from behind the camera. It is a different experience that looking at pictures. But then so is all photography. I will say this. If making nudes offends you don't do it outside of school. But try to get to the bottom of that feeling for your own sake.

The problem is we take the term "professional" too lightly these days. A true "professional" photographer has a skill set that few weekend warriors will ever match. They just can't deliver the goods. Having said that.

 

There are tons of folks out there who simply can't afford a top flight wedding photographer. They are fodder for the folks who are selling CD's. There are still plenty of people who are willing to spend upwards of $2K on their wedding photos but that is another market altogeather. The guy Adam mentioned is one of the former. What pro in his right mind would give the client "hundreds" of images to sort through. That is just inviting trouble. It simply makes the photographer look bad. It is in exerciz in 'swing enough times and you are bound to hit'. Where is the post production? At least a critical eye. I would never let the client even see what hits the cutting room floor.

 

What is rarely discussed is the initial meeting with the client. This is where the photographer 'sells' his/her skills and finds out what the customer wants. When I show a portfolio to a client (I have several depending on the assignment) I am more interested in what turns them on than I am in showing them how good I am. I want to know who they specifically want photographed. We, in essence, story-board the wedding. We decide what we can do before the ceremony to ensure we have some beautiful pictures should disaster strike. Finally I ask them to appoint a family liason person with whom I can talk during the festivities to make sure I get what they want. THis person introduces me to key people before the ceremony and/or reception so they are more comfortable with my being there. But most importantly I spend hours in post production. They don't see anything I don't want them to see. If it is not ready for me it is sure not ready for them.

 

I don't think the profession is dead or even injured. I think that the people who don't realize this is a professional and sales oriented business will always be doomed to compete with the weekend warriors and "Discount Wedding Photography by Bill". The ones who truly care about their clients, care about their art, never stop learining, and always put out the best product they can will do fine. And, not to put too fine a point on it, make a good living.

Its funny but the photo vest I wear gets me in places more than my press pass does. Silly but true. I wear a Domke and have to remember to take the dumb stuff that winds up in it out more often than not.

 

My partner wears cheap fishing vests and likes them just as well. I like Domke for the finished look. They are pricey and do tend to rip in the front if you are not careful.

I hear you talking money pretty loudly. May I offer some observations. The D200/300 will be not just a little cheaper. With the 5D you will immediately have to purchase a flash. So add about $250.00 to the price of the 5D. You can 'get by' with the flash on the Nikon especially if you do not anticipate using it often. If you require a professional quality flash you can add about $300.00 to the Nikon and $450 to the Canon.

 

Full frame is an advantage to some and disadvantage to others. Modern wide angle lenses obviate this to some extent.

 

As others have said the D200/300 is ergonomically a superb camera. If you are going to carry this camera in inclement weather or 'bang it around a bit' there is no choice but the Nikon. The 5D is positively fragile by comparison.

 

Your assumptions about the quality of glass are incorrect. Both manufacturers make lenses so good that I defy anyone to show me which one is better using an actual photograph. Since I am being a contrarian for the moment I would say that you should consider professional glass is simply any lens used by a professional. I own what many call professional glass but I do not hesitate to cary an 18-200 vr for many assignments and an 18-70 on my spare body for others. I prefer to think of them as heavy glass and light glass. As to the "range" of glass available? Tell me again when you anticipate seriously considering the difference between 400mm F2.8 lenses. You will find absolutely no limitations imposed by the offerings of either company.

 

I would go with the D300. It is a joy to handle. For my uses the APS sized sensor has advantages for me and as I own a 12-24, the full frame sensor offers no real advantage. The D300 is significantly faster. It has a far superior metering system and is tough as nails. The low light performance is no big deal unless you are a professional concert photographer or some such and the claims I am reading show the D300 to be far superior in this regard to the D200. And the 5D is not THAT much better.

 

Anyway. Consider that given the choice between a good consumer lens and a great flash and no professional flash and a "professional" lens I will go with the flash anyday.

 

I Don't care one whit about the Nikon/Canon debate. I have always used Nikon so I had no decision to make in this regard. Who wants to retire a 6mm F2.8? But as one earlier poster pointed out you are really comparing apples and oranges. They are very different cameras.

Being a comercial photographer in no way excludes the realization of one's 'art' anymore than being a corn farmer excludes one from raising award winning roses.

 

Is style one thing or may a photographer have several styles that are situational? Might one have a distinctive, one might even say signature portrait 'style' and have a quite different yet very well developed style of photojournalism. And it may be a real stretch to try and find commonality in the two.

 

Making a living with the camera can include the opportunity to explore different assignments with passion and inventiveness. I would maintain that those who believe that a photographer should remain "true" to their style seek to put that photographer in a box so that they can more easily understand his/her work.

I maintain that it is far more fun to approach each assignment or project with a more playful and experimental attitude.

 

Of course the title of this thread is "how to succeed as a photographer." If this includes making a living as a photographer it is an essential skill to be able to bring other people's vision to the project. If I am commissioned to do a portrait I have to understand that I owe the client not only the benefit of my expertise but also the benefit of my professional empathy. They deserve to get a product with which they are happy. They get to participate in the project rather than being looked upon as 'clay'. In photojournalism one often illustrates a writers vision and should include this vision in the image making process.

 

I often think of Mapplethorpe. Is he essentially flowers or homoerotica? Is he statuary or Patty Smith? He was a damned good photograher who had well defined "styles" across a variety of subjects. I don't think there is any one thing essentially Mapplethorpe.