michael_bizon

I would not trade the all the snakes in the West for a handful of Eastern Vipers or the like,

at least the rattlesnakes lets you know what's up (sidewinders are a different issue!), many

times near Death Valley N.P. and Yosemite I have somehow attracted snakes when I set up

my tripod. Luckily for them I'm not interested in photographing snakes, I just want my

grand scenics, so they usually bugger off, looking for something else to bother..

I'm glad you clicked on my name, sorry I didn't have any photographs to qualify me as a

"photographer", I must have misunderstood your last statement, but your statement

seems as much to me as ramble as mine does to you, so I'll let this subject rest, and no I

don't make my living as a photographer anymore, but that is another story, not one I will

tell here..

Brad

"Should one learn and spend their limited time with film cams and enlargers (which are

great for fine art sort of things)" Fine Art sorts of things! its a good thing it's not

industry driven, and well Brad if money is what your interested in then stay digital, by all

means and let all the creative, artistic qualities go to the people who use film, because that

is just what you said!

Your right this is not a film-digi debate, this is a debate of industry or art, and I'm not

sure you can make that distinction I know I can't, I use film 75% of the time so I'm biased,

but I will say when it comes to digital my Nikon Scanner will pull my slides in at 24 MP

what's your camera rated for?

Well the digital vs. film will probably always go on as a debate, its interesting to note that

when it comes to education of the next generation everyone's side is the best side, the

only side and and no need to even deal with the other side. With all that said, I'm heading

out today into mountains above Death Valley to practice my mantra, my addicition, and my

love for creating images. I'll have both systems with me..

the NewF1 aren't cheap, bodies are anywhere between $200 and $500 on Ebay, I can only

speak for the New F1, I never had the first model F-1, but they call it on the NewF1 a

hybrid shutter that goes from 8sec - 1/2000sec and it's mechanical for 1/125 - 1/2000,

and 1/90 (sync) and for 'B' (bulb), that's even if the battery isn't installed, if the battery is

in then it controls the slower speeds 8sec - 1/60sec., I've never had a battery go out on

mine and I've been using a couple of different Newf1 bodies for years. I do believe that

the old F-1 is all mechanical, I could be wrong, let me know if you would like to know

more, these are great bodies and systems, (a little heavy) but alot stonger than a Ae-1 or

A-1.

Funny Pete!, I might be bidding against you on some of them. I been looking to replace

the set that I take into mountains, and though I love my NewF1's, the OM's are way lighter

and in some ways as rugged, also the lenses by Zuiko are a lot lighter than top Canon

Primes

Colin it is expensive to use film, though a good digital system is way more expensive

initially, but it runs about $5 for my Velvia 50, then anywhere between $10 and $15 to

develope it, lets say a total of $15 then divide that by 30 (not 32 cause I usually burn a few

up settting it up) that makes it .50 cents a shot, since I bracket almost all my shots by 1/

3rds, that makes it roughly $1.50 a good image, so for me I have to take my time setting

up and getting it right, I definately think digital is the ruler when it comes to actions shots,

but for portraits and scenics then film wins, especially Medium and Large format, my

opinion of course.

I couldn't find much info about the shutter release Bulb setting in my A-1 book, but the

New F1 body when you set the shutter to B it's mechanical at that point so there isn't any

drain on the battery for those long exposures, I'm surprised the AE-1 and A-1 aren't

similar in operation?, as Steve was saying temperature could have alot to do with it, and

you probably did drain it with that long of exposures, I interested to see the system Mark

is referring to, cause it's a bummer the AE-1 and A-1 don't have the feature to tie the

camera body into the motordrive like the New F-1.

John

I can second what Pete sais about the OM's, they're great at what they do and are

fairly inexpensive on Ebay right now, however you said that you would like to keep in the

EOS family so whatever lenses you get, you can transfer over to your digital, that is a wise

choice and one you should stick with, I haven't commited fully over to EOS because I have

alot of money in my New F1/ FD system, this system hasn't fallen apart on me yet so I

havent' needed to replace it, with that said; go with what your budget is, early EOS bodies

are good to learn with because they don't have alot of bells and whistles, then again if

your going to keep your film body, then by all means get what you can afford, shop

around and read up on the different models and what they do, there was some dogs so try

and avoid those if you can. Good Luck and have fun with film!

Colin

well said!, I can agree with you on most of the issues, the "dying art" and "inefficient and

not the best interests of students" would be my own personal objections, but that is me.

I guess I'm watching the whole impersonal approach to digital, alot of my friends have

Canon 5d's and 30d's, I really don't see them committing to their own images, I use my

New F1/Fd system for my important images and I take my time to get the image right,

(because like most I'm not made money, and slide film and developement costs money)

and for them it's well "I can erase the image, or I can throw it into Adobe!", well then why

even bother, if you take 1000 images a week, and only two are good, well that doesn't say

a whole lot about composition, I'm sure this is not the case for all DSLR users, but it's been

something I have been noticing more and more. Nothing gets me more angry than when I

get a roll of film back and I was off on the shooting, but it makes me learn and I

continually push myself harder so that doesn't happen again.

William

Jeff very well could have an extensive knowledge of film, probably greater than mine, I

don't worry about things like that, when I wrote my statement I was refering to what fields

of knowledge are required for film, sure if you buy a top notch DSLR you would have to

know that info (to a degree) as well, but most of the systems are set up to get anyone by

(if they don't know), I think people shouldn't get so excited over the digital verses film and

what it means to each individual.

I was reading a story about a Boyscout leader trying to teach a group how to read maps

and the land themselves, the parents got angry over how long it took and demanded he

teach them how to use a GPS (because that's the latest technology) well guess what the

batteries died on the unit and the scouts got lost (the leader wasn't there), I guess in no-

way does this relate to photography.

Jeff

So let me get this right, We don't need pencils and paper anymore, because we have text

messaging and keyboards, no need for that old archaic way of expression and

communication?

I think it's great that you were able to point out my spelling errors on my last message,

and also to point out (with everything I said), that there was a equal situation with digital

I'm not sure if someone who is new to the field (a student let's say) would know as much

as you would about the subject.

I do know this though; that a student who is learning with film will have to know all those

things that I pointed out in order to make a photograph, and a student learning digital

wouldn't need to know any of that at all, they might want too, but it's not required with a

Digital SLR, (that's why they're so popular!) I do use some digital, so I'm not putting digital

down at all, it has it's place, just like I have the utmost respect for the person out there

with a large format camera, patience, patience patience! and what is your time worth,

they're not gonna blast off 200 photos in a couple of hours, they are going to make each

one count and that's what film teaches!.

Adding to what Lee sais,

Maybe they still teach film, because using film teaches you! how to set-up and compose,

adjust Fstops, preveiw depth of field, set the film speed, maybe you need to push the roll

or pull it, heaven forbid develope it, and generally learn the realationship between film,

camera, and the final product. Digital is great but with digital you can just erase your

image as if it never happened or better yet throw it into Adobe and fix it, with film there's

the final product, now what did you do wrong? what did you do right? definately a good

way to learn.

I started out with a Olympus OM-2n set-up and loved it, it was as rugged or more than my

current set of New F1's, I always considered the A-1 to be close to the OM for it's ease of

use. As I got into it more I realized that the ultimate Swiss Army Knife of bodies was the

New F-1, heavy for sure! but truely a solid piece of mechanized artwork, never fails. And

your right Lindy, all in all just equipment, it's a good thing Canon pulled off what they did

and for the most part, made it better. Had the EOS system been a failure then it would

have been the biggest image crisis of a lifetime, sort of like what GM is facing with

crushing all those EV-1 electric cars right in front of the people who wanted to own them.

sorry Greg if I've changed the subject a bit...

Paul,

I don't have subscriptions to any photo mag, but I thought I read it in a friends Shutterbug,

the issue had some "from the Archives" Canon F-1 (old style) and Nikon F2 and F3 articles

and I believe that I read the article right, is that Nikon was gonna concetrate on digital

SLR's from here on out, so I could be wrong in my statement, maybe there is still some

models in production, but it seemed that there wasn't goiing to be any new models. I

could be wrong about the whole thing, but I did think it was strange, since a great

following of theirs use the film bodies, but like Canon maybe it's time to change things,

and as far as changing things; one cannot tell if Canon will change anything, they've done

it before! and never say never, If I owned a lot of money in EOS equipment I wouldn't feel

to secure about it after knowing what Canon has done in the past!. with that all said, I

sure wish the FD prices would come down like Zuiko lenses and OM's, cause it's still alot

of money for a 20 or 30 year old fast prime lens that Canon made...

Just an observation Greg,

But Canon did make a statement (not in writing) but they dropped the T-90 after only

one year, for a company that likes to run product lines for 10 years and prides themselves

on it. It threw the biggest curve to the loyal fans, but they must have known if they get

into the EOS and AF ahead of everyone else, they were gonna pick up many, many more

customers than what they were going to lose, when corporatioins start doing this then it's

obvious where their hearts are , I wonder if they'll do it again with the EOS, EF group, what

if they just dropped that whole lens line in favor of a different mount that would let them

use a new and approved camera and lens lets say a 5mm-1000mm f1.2 "L" lens mounted

to the new 100d digital camera that runs on hybrid technology and is a cell phone!!!! I

got sick of hearing from Nikon folks how they can use the same lens on any Nikon body,

that Nikon didn't let them down like Canon did to us, but then I hear Nikon doesn't make

film bodies anymore, I found that ironic...

Keri, nice photo

Dave is probably on the right track, I've had A-1 cameras for years and I've never

experienced vignetting with a 50mm lens, unless your stacking screw in filters on top of

each other, I don't see that happening. You might want to try a longer length lens like a

100mm on up to 200mm and shoot some photos and see if the problem occurs on the

film again, if it does then good chance it's in the body, if it doesn't then maybe something

could be wrong with the lens, good luck!.

Mark since your the doctor today, I have a similar question when I attach my FD 24-35mm

"L" lens onto my NewF1 body, and look into the vewfinder and see the aperture needle for

the aperture setting, as I rotate the aperture ring on the lens from f3.5 to f22 the aperture

needle in the veiwfinder moves with it, then it stops at f16 and doesn't go up to f22, the

lens ring will continue onto f22 , this happens only with this lens and it doesn't matter

which finder I use, they all exhibit the same problem, what gives? thanks..

Timothy, I see what you mean, I have one of those small 2-way levels that fit into the

hotshoe, I set everything up and ignored the QR plate level and guess what, everything

panned level, might be that the QR bubble level really isn't spot on, and should only be

used for quick reference, I use the hotshoe level all the time with my speed finder in the

upright position, might be the trick for you, hope this helps out, and as a note I haven't

been to impressed with this Gitzo head (for other reasons) and have been looking for one

of their Low Profile 3-way heads. Good Luck!

Alan good luck with the TV, I don't have one where I live, just don't have the time I guess,

but you make a good point and it's one I'm starting to realize in life (at 36) and that's why

do we need to have everyting right now???? All of my close friends joke about me not

owning a digital system that could rival my Canon New F1/FD system, " wouldn't you Iike

to know how your images came out (right now!!!)" and I say no not really, I can wait for

the slides to come back in the mail ( which gets me awkward glances), I feel I've been

doing this long enough and have

learned all the traits of my equipment to know if it came out ok!, but I fear the "here and

now society" will eat it's own soul out, and rely to much on it's gadgetry to get itself out of

binds , sort of defeats the whole purpose. To me photography is a "moment" and that's

it, you can't relive it in Adobe, no matter what.

Well I thought I was just helping out maybe a leveling base is the way to go, but it does

help to know how to live without one, as far as surveyors leaning on their equipment and

"(in lieu of shovels)" and a totally different work flow!!! I'm not sure Edward where this

comes into play, but if you must then go ahead, I work with tripods all day long and no

not as a surveyor but as you pointed out a minute is a long time, and I can't afford

anymore here.

Edward, maybe there is a misunerstanding, I used to use a quality torpedo level in this

process, but since most heads have a level then you don't need one, but I would set up my

tripod then I'd set the torp level on top rotating it every 90 deg. and adjusting the legs

until the top was completely level ( this can only be achieved by moving the torp level at

any position around the top 12:00, 3:00, 6:00 so on and so forth) then my tripod was

ready

for the camera head, maybe this is old school, but it can be done in under a minute and

works great.. I have to do this all time on tripods in heavy construction when we are using

precision measuring euipment.

"is the price difference really worth it???" only if you want the best photos you can get.!!!

With Cokins, not only is the color off, but they scratch easily, and basically they're cheap

all around. Singh-Rays are the difference between a Pinto and a Porsche and yes they cost

(even on Ebay!), if your going to be using the P-mount size then Singh-Rays, Tiffen's

(which are glass!!), Hi-techs and so on, any of those are great filters, if your going 4x5

then I can recommend the Lee's (which is what I use) they're resin but I haven't been able

to scratch one yet! And Lee has the wide angle adapter so I can use my FD 17mm f4

without vignetting.

I have a older Gitzo 1228 Mountaineer and a new Gitzo 1378 (QR) head, the quickest

system is to get a leveling base ($$money$$), but I seldom pan my shots so I don't need

one but here is how you can level quickly. This is an old construction trick when using

theolodites or Auto Levels, get your legs setup and your ball head leveled on top, now with

the top QR plate level, pan your head 90 deg. adjust the legs so it's level again, turn 90

deg and adjust the legs, keep on doing this and you'll get your ball head completely level

do not re-level the top of the ball, use the legs for this and it'll work out perfect. hope

this helps.....MBizon

I give it up to you two with your knowledge of Canon history and Canon technical data,

and my hats off to your commitment to the earlier Canon systems, it sais alot about

someone who still finds the simple and proven things are all they need. I was 10 y.o.

when my first New F-1 was born, so I'm lacking in the length of my history in the Canon

tenure but with that said I have used many, many different Nikon and Canon models, and I

even was going to throw it all away in favor of my Olympus OM-1 (rugged little Monster)

but I kept coming back to my F-1's and for now there I'll stay. All my friends and co-

workers can't understand why I haven't moved with the times (at 36 they're tougher on you

over that!) but as with anything I do, it's got to be proven, my newest truck is a '85 Toyota,

I live in cabin (not a house), and I use film.....

Well I took my FD 50mm f1.8 and tossed it on the A-1 body, guess what it reads 2.5 and

the Aperature priority switch on top also reads like 1.2/1.4/1.8/2.0/2.5/2.8/3.5/4.0/ 4.5/

and so on and so forth, weird if you ask me...