mbrown

If nothing else, at least they make it easier to upload images. I can edit, caption, keyword and upload to the correct set or

collection, all from Aperture.

Pnet really needs to get the uploading sorted out here, they are so far behind the times compared to other image sites.

Not that I use Lightroom, but you need more info Preston, like, what are you exporting for?

If you are exporting for the web use sRGB because most browsers don't colour manage, so the colours would be out of

whack.

Size really depends on what you are exporting for. Printing, web, lab processing etc.

Matthew,

Maxwell are no longer the Nikon Distributor, Nikon are now direct in Australia. If you sent your lens in to be fixed and it was not

repaired properly, I would ring Nikon and complain, as 80% of their service work for non-pro is done by external service agents

(Camera Clinic in Melbourne, not sure about Sydney). I have asked Nikon not to use them for my gear, because of exactly what you

just said. The last time I went in there it was for a simple sensor clean, it came out dirtier than it went in.

I will chime in with a different perspective. As Mark N knows, I work in a similar type of business as he does, so we churn a lot of shots (50000 in

the first 6 months on the D3). As a Pro, I am a member of NPS, and the extra money I pay for the bodies, has paid for itself 4 fold.

The D3 is in "hospital" at the moment with an intermittent fault, I have Nikons loaner D3, and will have until they have sorted it out.

Last year my D2Xs blew the aperture assy, once again, the same day I had a replacement loaner while they fixed it, at no charge.

My 70-200 had a board go faulty, it was 6 years old and used a hell of a lot, they fixed it NO CHARGE, and gave me a loaner while they did it.

I would have gotten none of that support if I had bought the cameras grey market.

A friend of mine bought a D200 grey market mid last year, it was his first dabble into digital. As a sideline, he does a lot of work for Lonely Planet, as

he travels a lot. 2 weeks after he bought it, he went to Europe, while there the A/F went faulty. On returning he took the camera into the supplier he

bought it from, they had to send it to Japan, he finally got it back after 6 months, and yes the D300 was out by then.

If you want to buy grey, make sure you ask the following questions.

1. Do they service locally for the warrantee, also ask them who does the service.

2. If the camera dies in the first month, will they replace it.

Mike Brown

Thanks Mark,

Yes I must say I did get "inspiration" from you, LOL. The junior sport guy I shoot for down here panicked when he seen it, he didn't realise that I, as a lowly photography had the skills to produce it. He isn't a photographer he is a graphic guy, and as far as he is concerned, it's all about the "artwork" the photographers skills have little to do with it.

Isn't it funny though that the gigs that he uses myself and a couple of other pro's he makes a killing, but where he uses the new guys who have little or no experience they don't do too well.

On a side note, I have 16 viewing stations now, I am making sure I build up enough working capital and have my workflow spot on and I will go out on my own. I have a graphics girl ready to go who will charge me per collage instead of per hour, and I have event sales staff ready as well as 3 shooters including myself.

They are all hassling me to get it happening, but I want to make sure everything is ready. As I tell them, I need to have enough cash built up so if I have a bad event or 2, I can still afford to pay them. That shuts them up lol.

NPS?? I've been waiting for 5 months for my membership stuff to come through, so I won't hold my breath.

We are very lucky down here, all of the big tournaments run over summer for the Soccer. We have one coming up with 1200 kids, we did it last year and they have been hounding us to come back again.

I don't mind a wee drop of TED :-)

And while I would love to do Indy, I would get no work done, the lens would be pointed in the wrong direction LOL. I have the 200-400 f4 VR, it's a sweet lens, I did the Superbikes earlier this year with it (in my sport folder under my gallery), just struggles a little in low light like at night at the Telstra Dome (D3 should fix that), I would have gotten the 400 2.8 but I got a great deal on the zoom and it was hard to justify the extra several thou.

I ordered my D3 through Borges (pro shop in Port Melbourne) I will keep the D2Xs as my 2nd body and scrap the tiring D70.

I put the deposit on the D3 on Friday Mark. Might have helped with the bright sunlight at todays grand final games, my eyes still hurt from the sun. Have you had someone running things for you while you had a break?

Next week the Soccer starts sigh, but more importantly I got my creds for MotoGP in October woohoo.

I can't drink any CUB beers now, I think I'm allergic to something in them, I get sever headaches the next day.

Mike<div></div>

Great news Mark, sorry I have been off photo.net for a while and didn't know. I still would like to catch up with you at some stage. I get up your way every 3 months or so.

Mick Brown

P.S. Sorry guys, there is no way that Fosters helps your health, we export it so that we DON'T have to drink it LOL.

Howdy Jen,

I will try and answer some of these for you.

1. 280 Shots is actually quite a few, it really depends on what you expected from them. Did you discuss how many images you would recieve? Also even though you have said that there was 140 guests, was it made clear to the photog that he was to cover all of the people? It is normal practice to only cover the bridal party and family etc, NOT guests. When doing a wedding, I tell the couple that over a period of time, they can expect xxx number of photos, from that they should usually expect at least 5 exceptional shots that you would want blown up on the wall, and at least 20 really good shots for the main wedding album, and the rest for a normal album. Any more than that and it will take months to sort out which ones you want. (An average wedding for me can be anywhere between 200-400 shots, depending on client requirements)

2. Portrait view/Landscape view/on angles, it is all relative and depends on the shot and the situation, I could shoot an entire wedding in landscape, or the other way around. This could also depend on the size of the bridal party. It is a shame about the stained glass though, and personally I would have gotten it in, but thats me.

3. Yes if the film is good quality, there is no reason that it couldnt be done, as long as the scanning is done at high quality. Is it reasonable? Well that all depends on your relationship with the photographer. I would approach them and nicely tell them that you are disspointed that the photog didnt get the stained glass, and ask them if there is any way to fix it, calmly mention that you would have thought he/she would have gotten a feature like that into the shot. They may wish to help you out. But then again, there is a lot of work involved, especially if they have to reshoot the glass.

One thing I will say to anyone either shooting weddings, or looking at hiring a wedding photog. Have meetings well before the event, at the couples house, at the church/venue and at any other site you may be taking shots. DO NOT let the photographer go there by themselves, you all need to be on the same page as to what the couple expects from the photographer, and this IMO is the only way to do it.

If Jen had met at the church with the photog beforehand and while there had said, "I love those stained glass windows, please make sure you get them in some of our alter shots" we would not be talking about this now. I am assuming that this didnt happen by the way Jen. If it did then thats a whole other ball game and I would insist on the touch up shots.

Mike Brown

Mlbourne Australia

John,

Obviously we have an issue with communication here, all through this thread I have basically been supporting you in that you or anyone else have the right to shoot at most events, it's a free world, good luck to you all. If you choose to give these shots away, great I'm happy for you, thats your choice, obviously you don't have to rely on this as an income like other photographers.

Yes I did quote "yes at SOME events" we ask that no-one else shoots, these are specialised shoots like, as I suggested Childrens Gymnastics. This protects the children, as the only people in the event with cameras are us. Let me point out, this was first suggested by the event co-ordinators and the parents of the children themselves, NOT US.

I used the 800 shot example because it was the ONLY one I have had with this type of thing, I wasn't trying to make that I was superior at all, I can't even see how you could read that into it. The point I was making was not superiority, but more of experience in event photography, not just the taking of the photo, but the entire process.

One thing I will point out to you, if you look back at my original reply to the OP, I made a point that he had to do something to make himself stand out, and I put a link to the collages that we do, this is what we do to combat the issue, NOT tell people they cant take photos, nor did I say that our photos were neccesarily any better than some of the Moms & Dads or volunteers. And just so you know, our business is NOT suffering, due to us doing the graphics, in fact we are busier than ever and this is supposed to be our quiet time.

John, If you have had a bad experience with a sports or event photographer, take it up with them, I am not going to apologise for someone I don't know or even necessarily agree with.

Michael Brown

Thanks Brad, I couldn't have responded any better.

I had a conversation with the president of a club that we attended over the weekend, we shot his tournaments up until last season, until they got a volunteer parent to shoot last years tournament. His previous photos were very nice, there was no disputing that. But they rang and asked us to come back this year...why?? Because the volunteer could not handle the volume that we output, he had hundreds of disgruntled parents angry that they could not get photos of their child at last years event because the volunteer missed them, or the shots were soft or they only had their backs. I went through the photos that they took, and out of about 800 shots their was about 200 that parents (not me) would find acceptable. Thats 25%, we have to hit 80%.

Now let me put that into real terms for you. He took 800 photos, over 24 games!!! His equipment was just not up the sheer output that we do, and neither was his workflow. Also, he was doing it on his own, we have 4 shooters running at an event that size, which the boss has to pay whether he sells a photo or not.

Most of us have been doing this for a long time, and have been through the trials and tribulations of doing event photography, we have invested tens of thousands of dollars setting up the systems that are required.

Training? Well of course like most trades, a lot of us have had to do some sort of traineeship/internship, we dont just go out and start taking photos of sports events/weddings, or anything else we might shoot.

John, in all of the time I have been shooting at events, sports or anything like that, I have not once told someone they cannot take photos. I welcome them, talk to them. Photographers, both amatuer & pro are my main friend groups. Why would i attack someone who obviously has the same interests as myself. I had a guy yesterday shooting with a 5D canon out of the crowd, I asked him to come under the fence and shoot with me, to get a better angle. (btw I looked at his shots later that day and asked him if he was interested in a bit of extra work)

The only time I have seen someone being asked not to take photos was by the actual event organisers and this was for legal reasons (very young gymnastics girls).

Mike Brown

John- No one has said that the photos taken by Moms & Dads are not good, thats the whole problem, a lot more of them are getting better and better because of digital...

"Why do you feel that way?"

A pro photographer "should" be better, we are trained to do this, we do it day in and day out, if we cannot find a way to make ourselves stand out then we shouldnt be doing it.

"Are their equipment inferior to yours?"

I would hope so, I am lugging around $15000k in one hand, not to mention whats in my bag, yes every now and then I see someone in the crowd with pro gear, and I usually have a chat to them when I get a chance, not to tell them that they cant shoot here but more because I like to talk to other photogs. I had one guy who had the identical setup to me, he asked me how do I get shots like I do, because he couldn't, so I gave him advice. I see him every now and then still shooting, and he comes and shows me when he thinks he has a real winner. By the way, he has bought photos every time I have seen him.

"Do you think you have a "right" to sell your photos and that the parents are somehow infringing on your rights?"

In some cases yes, at these types of events we have usually have a contract with the club or league and a fee is often paid to access the event, some events we can request that no one has a camera or at least cant use flash (gymnastics), most we can't.

At the end of the day what makes a pro stand out from most good amatuers is quality and QUANTITY of output, yes dad standing on the sideline focussing on his Son can get that absolute cracker of a shot, but can he get 500 shots in a game, with every kid, and at least 80% of shots being sharp and at the peak of action, I would say doubtful. I recently gave a new photographer a try, he had been shooting for years and had a very nice portfolio. He came up to me at the end of the game, he had taken 200 shots, 5 of them would be what I would call saleable, he said this is a lot harder then I thought it would be.

Michael Brown

Peter,

I shoot youth sports every weekend here in Australia, if you are just shooting normal every day shots and expecting people to but them year after year, you will see a drop in sales. What you need to do is find a new area of expertise. The company I shoot for make a heck of a lot more money out of the collages they sell than the single shots. You need to make yourself stand out from the moms and dad shooters, show that there is a difference between a pro shooter and a part time amatuer. And whether you want to admit it or not, your are a pro, as you make money from photography.

Have a look at some of the stuff we do here...

http://www.boxandicesp.com.au/pages/products.htm

The site is a little slow, he is working on that.

Mike Brown (Melbourne Australia)

I would experiment as much as you can, I assume you are shooting digital??

There are what we call in the industry "safety shots" in most sports, these are the easy shots to get which guarantee you get something usable or saleable....safety shots in golf are:

"the just after the hit, club over the shoulder, player looking down the fairway towards the ball"

"Player just putted, watching the ball head towards hole"

"Just after ball is connected with out of a sand bunker"

"Player lining up putt"

If the day is nice and bright, go with Aperture Priority and set f stop at around f4 - f5.6 (2.8 if its over cast but beware less D.O.F), try and keep your speed up over 1/1000 sec, if it starts to drop below that, dont be afraid to up the iso, digital cameras perform quite well to 800. If the lighting is crappy, you will have to use your experience with cameras, just try and keep the speed up. Dont be lazy and go auto WB, if its bright and sunny use the right setting, same if its cloudy etc etc. In this type of event 200mm would be enough, bring a wide angle for some funky group shots and stuff and some different angles. Don't be afraid to get up high, or down low. Here is some inspiration from SI Photographer Fred Vuich (this was taken with a Mamiya 7 out of earshot of Tiger)

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/golf/pga/features/tiger/main/coverlarge0416.html

Now for the golf game/course itself

1. Never stand in front of the golfer while he is swinging (common sense that one)Those little balls hurt.

2. If you have to wander onto the fairway, also check back up towards the tee to see if someone may be teeing off

3. Flat runners if you plan to walk on the greens

4. Try not to talk/yell or make noise if walking past other golfers while they are playing a shot or putting

I know it's only a work thing, but it's good practice to learn basic rules in shooting golf (you never know you might like it and do more upmarket stuff)

1. (most important rule of all) Never take a shot of a golfer until after the club has connected with the ball (unless you have a silent camera), that little click we hear sounds like someone hitting a gong when you are focussed over a ball preparing. On the pro circuit, photogs have been thrown out for this and have lost their accreditation.

2. HAVE FUN!!

Mike Brown (Melbourne Australia)

Thats a great image Carl,

Would you be able to post the set up so that others can learn from it?

Cheers

Mike Brown (Melbourne Aust)

Sorry Melinda,

I just tried going to your website and it tries to take over my internet explorer, it's asking if your site can have access to my clipboard. I'm using IE7, you may want to look into that before your customers have the same problem.

Cheers

Mike Brown

Melinda,

We pay a % only of team and portrait pics, we get to shoot the action as part of a thankyou from the club to us, and luckily for us, here in Australia the paranoia about people with cameras, allows us to be the "official photographer by default. Also, the ridiculous mark ups for camera gear here makes buying pro gear or even semi pro gear very much out of reach of moms & dads, so at a lot of events I do, there is no one around with med to long lenses.

Ron,

I could be wrong in my assumption, but are you only selling on the web? If so that could be your main problem, while we do sell on the web, we mainly sell onsite (take orders, we dont print onsite). You have to market yourself on the day and you need to grab them while they are still excited.

You can find more info on this at these 2 sites, which are specifically geared around sports and event photography.

<A HREF="www.sportsshooter.com">www.sportsshooter.com</A>

<A HREF="www.prophotohome.com">www.prophotohome.com</A>

The second one you will have to join, but it is free.

Cheers

Mike Brown (Melbourne Australia)

Also happy to help out on this forum Philip, if you still need mods.

Mike Brown

As a sports photographer, I have taken shots of many different sports, including youth. I recently shot the Victorian State Gymnastics Championships here in Melbourne (Aust). The one thing I find amazing about this article is that it doesn't mention that all of the people in the crowds are meant to be there. They are parents, siblings, aunts, uncles, grandparents, coaches etc. The Official Photogs (myself included) are on the floor and are fully credentialled.

At this event, I looked into the crowd to see several people with medium telephotos and semi pro cameras. All of them were parents.

If they are saying that they want to stop the pedo's with cameras at these type of events, then basically they are pointing the finger at the parents and relatives of the competitors, as there is basically 0% of people that shouldnt be there.

As far as the Olympics & such, the minimum age for competing is 16, with most of the competitors are 18 and over. They just look really young due to their training schedules & diets.

We have to stop this trend of "If he has a camera, he must be a pervert"

Mike Brown (Melbourne Australia)

Thanks for the feedback on the pic...

Yeah sorry I should have qualified, yes only to NON p.net users. That way we can send "outside" people to our photo pages to have a look and not have to worry about where they are (like at work) or who is around when viewing the pages and then I can put my B&W nudes back up.

I wouldnt say we need to lock them out completely, just have a link in that folder section that they have to click on to view the pics, basically giving them the option to view or not.

Mike

On another note, it's good to see you back and active again, still waiting for your next visit back to Aus and have that coffee.