c.r._hips

Grant. Art is evolutionary, just like anything else. Painters once made their paints by hand, then came tubes. then came the airbrush. then came the computor, etc etc. The manor by which the result is achieved is only a choice, not a requirement. The end result is what matters. It comes down to the expressive potential of the Art maker. Some have more than others. The way they got to the result only matters if it prevented them from getting there. As Artists our medium and our preferences therein relate more to the choices we make at each step along the way in the creative process. Digital photography is not a good thing only if it prevents you from expressing your self clearly. Anachronistic Art trends are all the rage these days, as young Artists find a need to go more deeply into their craft than the technological revolution requires.

Brian, I understand that you can site numbers that will support the system. I think the system (ratings) is flawed. It is also not conclusive that revenue would diminish by increasing comment potential. Ratings more than comments , I think can be artificially juiced. What if 15 photographers from Spain, forinstance, banded together in hopes of making a big impression on PN. What if they decided to post photos at alternate times and each photographer was supported by 14 6/6's. The TRP would be loaded with Spanish Photographers, probably getting a lot of attention. Friends could do the same thing. Mutual support groups are what make ratings so easy to manipulate.It can also work in reverse, where pictures by unpopular members are deflated in value, without regard to the merits of the image. Manipulation is the heart of TRP, and everyone knows it. I am just one voice (not always listened to) who thinks there is much potential for this site, on a higher road. As an Artist I find ratings, in general, insulting. They doumb down the process of perception and visual thinking. I hope that insightful comments from members will eventually prove to be as financially rewarding and percieved as the true backbone of this site by advertisers. Efforts such as 5 prove there is a need for genuine interaction here. I,for one ,hope that you, Brian, share these views and hopes.

Hi Brian, I hope I didnt get you up too early with my question. Actually I would really like to know how ratings generate financial well being at PN. I have heard this numerous times from contributors and I just don't get it. This is all in relation to putting more importance on the written word than knee jerk numerical reactions to photos. Some people on this site feel you are reluctant to diminish the ratings scheme as the future of PN somehow depends on it.How is that true. Also when signing up the site does not require payment.$ 25 just gets you more space etc. Pick any common name, go to member directory, type in, and it is apparent that paid "members" are a small fraction of the 'community'. It seems that requiring payment would generate considerable income, unless it is the goal to not show income. Please answer question about ratings. Thanks

I wish someone would explain how the ratings scheme promotes the financial security of PN.

This site is operated much like a non-profit venture. I mean most of the "members" dont

even pay the $25 because it isn't required. The $25 is accepted as more a donation so that it

can be seen that way at tax time. So how do ratings generate income? I would like to know.

If you dont own your own business and have no employees you will need an independant contractors license so clients can pay you a gross paycheck or cash without taking out taxes ( It will then be your responsibility to pay those taxes yourself). Sole propriator or corp status is for when you actually want to work for yourself and not others. The retail sales license is so you can buy all equipt. etc. without paying sales tax. You must charge tax on any Artwork you sell. Mona, did POW take a dump this week or what?

Hi Ben, I think the simple rule regarding subjectmatter in general is -let the subject reveal itself to you-. I have found that subjects always take you down roads you would not travel, if you influenced them to be something other than themselves. Be the receptor of the moment, not the instigator.Or sieze the moment, dont create it. Something like that. Hips

Check e-bay. My daughter got a perfect condition minolta x-700 with case, lenses, and original manual for under $150. It works great and is excellent for anyone getting started with film.

Instead of listing 6 excuses for not wanting to give critiques, why not give 6 critiques. I only

wish you might have listed 100 excuses. Obviously you have the time, and judging the length

of your biography you posess a decent gift of written gab. Why would you feel it necessary to

tell people what is wrong with their work? Why not just respond to the pictures that grab you.

This site, I believe is as much about learning to look at pictures, as anything else. Use the site

to sharpen your perceptable abilities. Learn how Art makes YOU feel. Try to communicate

your personal insights to the Artist. It can only hope to be a perfect world if we try to make it

one. Dont give up. Hips

In my opinion, 'critique only' is what this site should be about. Not ratings. 'Rate recent, is a shooting gallery that appeals to those with little insight, much cunning and hints of aggression. To actually want someone to respond to your work with their thoughts is a greater respect given by Artist to viewer. Hopefully the base drives of this site will give way to better communication between members. Ratings is not the cow that produces the cream. Intelligent review is. Hips

Peter, as a painter, I can tell you that what you describe is the" Art as life "philosophy.

Artists are always sharpening their visual skills where ever they are. A favorite game my

daughter and I play ( she is 16 and loves photography) is the 'Whats the best shot here'

one. She may not have her camera with her, but she is always looking, finding the most

interesting shot, no matter where she is. Sometimes these adventures can lead to new

insights and awareness and maybe future pictures. Training the eye is fun and the camera

is not always necessary. Even if people intrude, it is good to remember that fate always

plays a role and perhaps a new creative potential in the scene has been given to you. I

think that what people really get from the Arts in general is the feeling of being alive. All

Art is based in our sensuality. Pealing back the visual layers before you and interpreting

your own vision is really what its about for the creative person. Anders is wise in his

understanding of how his medium fullfills is visual experiences. So if the 'moment' is

interupted , don't be philosophical . Be active. Just feel that active participation in the

wonders around you is sufficient. Be alive to life. Hips

Meryl, The comparison to driving is a good one. Remember Sterling Moss the graet English

driver who had a bad crash and never recovered mentally enough to continue driving? He was

so in tune with his instincts that after the crash he started to think consciously about what he

was doing while driving and lost that instictive relationship. I couldn't drive in a race if he was

conscious of the craft of driving. The violinist Menuhin suffered the same thing after his

teens when he started to think about his craft and how he made music. He retired from

playing for many years. He could not play anymore once he started analyzing his technique.

The list goes on and on of Artists self examining themselves and destroying the source from

where it came.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply Travis was a beginer other than that the way he posed his question showed a lack of understanding and experience with the medium. I am open to the possibility that what ever made him ask the question also is interested in possible answers.

Actually, although your point has some validity, "the craft" is only important to the beginner. The way he framed the question,I think,puts Travis as a beginner. However, Craft is the least important thing once you know it. In fact it must never rear its head when creating. Most Artists I know feel traped when the "craft" dominates. Especially in painting. It must be subconscious and a part of us ,like air we breath that we dont remember breathing. It is though, perfectly possible for a photographer to paint a painting with nearly no experience as long as he is relating to the subject with his true nature. The same goes for the painter taking a photo with little experience with a camera. These are all gross generalizations and depend on the individual circumstance. To the real Artist or phographer, "craft" should always be a distant second to the 'act" or intent in creation. When craft is most important , content gets lost, We only see the how and not the why. Philosophy comes from the mind and heart, not the craft, I think. Hips

Travis, Yes it is important to shoot what interests you. In fact, thats what is really imoportant. Afterall, creativity is about decision making, conscious or subconscious. The view you choose, the subject of focus that you choose, all the technical camera settings that you choose, the moment of capture that you choose, etc. etc.,All of this is, in the end, what makes your work different from others. Each image is an individual moment capturing an interpretation through your own expression form. It is only after much time and thousands of other such creative moments that trends can be noticed in youir work. It becomes known how you view life, over time. If the Artist is projecting a pure vision of themseves the chance of a philosophy coming through in their work is possible. So just keep clicking away, someday it might all make sense.

Grant, fine contribution. Add- Art and Visual Perception by Rudolf Arnheim, The Mythic Image by Joseph Campbell, The Art Spirit by Robert Henri, The teachings of Lao Tsu, come to think of it ALL essays and books by Arnheim, and Campbells Atlas of World Mythology (4 books), Eliade on comparitive religions, The Surrealist and Futurist manifestos, Sontag on photography, The metaphysical poets and philosophy, parabala magazine (all issues), and how about- The Lost Language of Plants by (I cant remember, great book though). Obviously the list is endless and attempting to find the root of our aesthetic nature is a road that leads everywhere.

No, I think what Ben is suggesting is the idea of say 3 photographers with different

approaches to the same subject matter ( say, portrait or nude or landscape etc) engaging

in discussion together in a forum which could be moderated by a respected elf(?), who

could guide the conversation. The forum would be closed to all comers until it finnishes,

say 1-11/2 hours. At that point the rest of the comunity could be allowed in to ask

questions etc. This type of forum could be an on going feature of the site and would add a

new layer of understanding to the subject matter being addressed. The 3 photographers

would have to be chosen by elves { opening a whole new can of worms, but face it, they

would never let it be otherwise). The idea of talented members discussing their motivation

, working methods, inspirations and visions as compared to each other, could be really

interesting. Participants could be notified by e-mail and an agreed time to meet on line

could be set. Without going into any futher detail, I like Bens idea.

Ben, you just did. and very well at that. I like your idea of a forum where the 3 of them actually debate or discuss there views on the nude. Make it happen.

Outstanding comments, both Jenny an Ben. Isn't it true that the highest bar for any Artist

is the human one? The original question asks to recognize whether the Artist is giving of

themselves in a manner that excepts the model as thou and not it. In nude photography

this distiction is more acute, Because sexuality can be so in our imaginations the door

naturally swings in that direction. Artists who document the human condition without

regard to the fantasies we lay on everything ,give us a reflection which keeps us in

ourselves rather than removing us from ourselves. Photographers of the nude are as

varied as any other subject matter. We can photograph a landscape just as exploitively as

a nude. It comes down to humaness in the end . Do we embrace our subject so that it

informs us more deeply of ourselves, so the viewer can connect in a human way to the

work? Or do we detach ourselves from our subject , entering into a purly personal mode of

expression through fantasy. Either way can be rewarding as these 3 Artists and others

prove.

Ben. Ezra is another excellent example. I kind of think he relates more to Amelkovich with a

bit of Adams honesty. They all pull our strings and push our buttons with regard to sexuality.

I hope that I am not the only one, but I hav'nt got a clue of where Ed is coming from. There is alot of anger though. Ed misses the big picture of why we create in the first place. Because we must. Art schools are full of painters and photographers who will become competent in their craft( prfessional maybe) and never contribute anything worthy of being called Art. Perhaps Ed feels he could have filled in for Richard Avedon and made a comparable result. Learning the craft is only the starting point, not the end in itself. My wife is perhaps the best cake decorator in the world. She never went to pastry school. She is an Artist at what she does because she is at one with her medium as a mode of self expression. People from pastry schools know all the basic skills but generally they are not Artistic. They will make the same thing over and over, always the same. The last thing a real Artist wants to do is the same thing over ad-noseum. That is what a good ad agency will look for in a photographer too. The ability to break new ground, not trample the same patch meaninglessly. Ed I dont know your experience but I dont think you would be making these statements if you understood the creative impulse. Try to remember that being professional really has nothing to do with being an Artist. Generally people who are passionate about their medium become equally passionate towards their craft. Digital photographers have a craft as well. It may speak a different language from yours, but it speaks. I personally believe that there will be a backlash to digital. My daughter is 16 and quite talented in photography. She is of the digital generation, but there is a powerful attraction to hands on darkroom experience. People usually rebel when things get too easy, we like journey more than the result,I think. Process is so rewarding, and my daughter prefers her minota x700 to her rebel xt any day. So cheer up, the future will never be what we think.

Well said Grant. If technique was all its about, a chimp could rule the world. What separates

the really talented from the legions of journeymen is the ability to get the unique vision

across even though the job, assignment or atmosphere may not require it, or even care. The

photographer who cares will eventually be the cream that rises to the top. Hips

That would be great idea,Thomas. Self portraits are always revealing about Artists in ways their other work is not. Perhaps if they were uploaded as critique only the fear of low ratings could be quelled.

Pico, I say this with all due respect; You seem jaded, defeated, overly pessimistic, and slightly burned out in your recent posts. I suppose you are just trying to get us motivated by being insightful. Whatever. Listen man, theres no Artist worth his paint or film who ever gave a damn what critics , Art historians or collectors have to say. Sure we pretend to because we need to survive. Art history has consistantly shown that Art critism and prevailing taste has been wrong at best. Art has always been defined by intent, depth, commitment, and not how much you think you know, but how much you actually do know and want to know. Great Art only comes through the process of creation by an uncontrolabe curiosity about the human condition. Even pure abstract Artists are manipulating primal instincts and human biology when making their symbiotic creative choices. The highest bar that all Artists atain to is the human one. We communicate to eachother through an invisable, subconscious code that ties us all together as human beings. We all have the basic tools to understand and relate to eachother if we can just put aside our individual cultures and belief systems which are designed to keep us apart for a myriad of reasons. When looking at a photo, painting or sculpture , try to let go of everything and absorb what is being given to you. Does it tap in to that invisable code . How does it make YOU feel as a human being? Isn't that the big test all "Art" must pass. It must make you feel. The ESTABLISHMENT hasn't got a thing to do with it.

Interesting, the models motivation with these 3 Artists. Humm.....To be a model for Adams

you are not there for your sexual energy, but rather your humaness qualities which

celebrate your differences with his other models. You are asked to be your self physically if

not emotionally. With Lueders , the model is asked to reveal hidden , private instincts

which strike strong inner chords with the viewer. Luders confronts our primal urges in an

unpretensious style. Amelkovich cares not about who the model is personally. Models are

inspired to fullfill fantasies which take them outside of themselves. Amelkovich uses his

models to perform preconcieved compositional concepts in an abstract context. The

models role with all 3 is as different as the Artists final results. Each informing us of

something different within ourselves.

Tasha, the problem with generalizations is that they rob us of our differences, and that is

where our Art comes from. You are probably right that some fashion is not Art. But then

again some art is not Art either. It has been said that our humanness brings forth our Art. Try

applying that notion when assessing creative things. Depth is not required and superficiality

is not necessarily frowned upon when we view works of Art. Mainly, does it speak to you in a

way that helps you understand yourself and your world around you? I think that you will find

that nearly all the best and conceptually successful fashion and advertising images speak to

us in profound ways, as most great Art does.