bpearl

<p>Thanks again - I got a positive reply from him after I explained it this way:<br>

In terms of your concerns; I am not reselling the image, nor is it being used for profit in any way - the displays will be taken down before the end of the month. In Canadian photography law if a photograph is taken of someone who is in a public place and if that person is in a position of 'no reasonable expectation of privacy' the photographer is not encroaching on anyone's legal rights nor invading privacy. There is no reason in this case for a model release or written consent - I do apologize if you feel any discomfort, and would like to assure you my intentions were not to harm anyone by submitting this photo to help in the promotion of a great new photography contest as part of Banff's culture.<br>

Cheers all,<br>

B</p>

<p>Thanks! That link is GREAT for many reasons!<br>

Lorne you rule! and Frank so do you for seconding :)<br>

have a great day</p>

<p>Hello :)<br>

I'll make this quick and to the point, I really appreciate your responses and thoughts - thanks in advance for your time!<br>

I am in Banff, Alberta - Canada... this is a bit of a legal/ethical question.<br>

I photographed <a href="http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150277046625276&set=a.10150277045745276.547385.524070275&type=1&theater">this photo one day</a> (hope the link works) - as you can see it was spontaneous moment. I have since shared it with a non-profit in Banff who is using it (among other images) as 11x17 prints in windows around town to promote a photo contest of memorable moments in Banff.<br>

They guy in the foreground emailed me and said he saw it and "To my understanding you need to have my written concent before displaying or put up for sale. "<br>

How best to respond?<br>

I can't seem to remember the canadian legal rights - this was on public property, he was at work, i am not selling it. do i need a model release/written consent to use it on my website or to share with the non-profit?</p>

<p>Thanks!<br>

B</p>

<p>Hello -<br>

If I am doing shoots for commercial clients, and billing for ceative/time (depending on the nature of the shoot) ... what is the best way to price my work?</p>

<p>Currently - I have royalty free prices for 4 files sizes, and also offer rights managed licensing depending on the client/project requirement.I'd really like to make my life easier and just sell royalty free, but am not sure if i should just go that route or not... thoughts?<br>

...I read info out there about the VALUE of photography on the web, some license fees and suggested fees are quite difficult to get clients to pay...that's not making mention of the suggested (& may i say totally FAIR) cost to license for print jobs... I feel that my prices match my target market, but am still not sure if this is the best way to do it ... a royalty free web photo (500 x 333 px @ 72dpi = $25 ... a low-res 5MB file = $89, etc... )</p>

<p>any suggestions on the best way to sell the digital product and make a profit? What are you doing with regard to the sale of your commercial images to commercial clients. How do you qualtify it?</p>

<p>thanks photo.net!</p>

I found a really great article called

" How to Price Assignment Photography " by Barry M Robinson (www.barrymrobinson.com)

And THANKS a bunch for your answer Alan -- very helpful indeed when thinking about licensing royalty free... after reading the article mentioned above, I think I will license Rights Managed an limited my offering of RF ...

Merci!

hello forum readers :)

i'm curious to know how best to deal with selling images to Commercial Clients from a commissioned photoshoot. I

find myself photographing 'custom stock' for small business-medium business....they use the images on websites,

marketing materials, presentations, posters, etc.... commercial use, right?

what I'm doing right now is charging for the shoot and then, based on their needs, selling them royalty free

images from a proof gallery. The royalty free license and possible use of the image is determined by the file

size they purchase (...similar to the way masterfile, getty or other industry positive stock agencies handle RF...)

I don't want to chase after people and monitor their usage (as a self employed full-time photog, i don't have the

time)

so Royalty Free seems to make sense.... i am NOT a fan of "shoot to burn", or giving away files, or including the

files in the service fee...

Wondering if this is acceptable to do ? Am I operating within an industry norm here?

I also curious about how I should come to the amount I charge per file size...since they have commissioned the

shoot, I gather matching prices on getty or masterfile, etc. would be a bit steep... how would you suggest I

calculate the numbers so that I am not undercutting and on par with industry standards? I've seen some great

examples about how to price for web use... still wanted to get feedback and potentially a dialog started about

the topic...

example -- right now for a hi-quality web resolution file (800x533px @ 96dpi) from a shoot they paid for I sell

the file for $18, a Hi-Res 25MB file is $120....

I am updating my website for the new year and have the opportunity to change my pricing... I want to be fair to

the industry - any thoughts?

(PS -- I am based in Toronto, Ontario, Canada)

cheers :)

Thanks for the replies so far... I'd like to comment on some of your comments...

shaun ring >

" If you can educate them a bit on what the experience should be, and they seem responsive, then a second go

around would be a great way to make a client satisfied and maybe have future opportunities for work."

I did this on the phone while she complained to me, I attempted to explain, in general terms, how I approach a

photoshoot (as a portrait journalist, not a Highschool Grad photo/passport photo operation) To add to the hints

of her own immaturity, she took my general statement as a personal attack, and I had to explain to her that I

wasn't accusing them of anything, I was merely explaining how I operate... so - so much for that approach.

Which brings me to something Rob Domaschuk said about offering the goodwill re-shoot and the fact John brought up

about whether or not she's asked for one...she did not DIRECTLY ask for it, but i have good ground to suspect

that this is what she is after...based on the way she talked about a re-shoot, i know she will come to that (even

if I post more shots from the shoot to the proof gallery) AND i know that she will make the re-shoot as awkward

as possible and guilt me the whole time...I know this woman relatively well as she is a member at a weekly

business group I am also involved in. She has the personality of a "on-again-Off-again-highschool-relationship"

... and is loud and opinionated....other members are afraid of her &/ attacked.... I should have ran a the get

go, but in the interest of being on her good side I took on the project....

Now I am worried that I've been trapped into a situation where her intent is to make me look bad (no matter if i

stick to my terms, the verbal contract, or do a re-shoot for a fee or free) ....

I would LOVE to tell her that the situation last time was unacceptable and that I guarantee my work only against

my own workmanship and not their behavior. (like Rob suggested) .... The quality is there in the portraits

technically, and she looks good (IMO & some others' who've seen them) and (like John says) "use her facial

expressions in the images as evidence that I did my part and she is at fault" ....I tried mentioning this, and

like I said before -- she just plays more games and contradicts herself...

but as John says, he "feels equipped and righteous enough to put up with and defend against whatever hassles such

a client may present" .... I have said many of the things suggested here, they fell upon deaf and deceitful ears

and I unfortunately am not sure I have the walnuts/wit to continue stand up to her, (I WANT TO RUN) >>>> BUT I am

worried about her influence over others in my referral based biz group...

I'm in a pickle, and think I may have lost the battle the day I agreed to photograph her... from my perspective,

no matter what I do will please her and she WILL talk about me...

____________

SO -- that said.... they've paid me for the shoot and the work I've done until now, the final part of the

transaction was to be them choosing the files they want for their website & paying separately for them. They like

the "details shots" from around the office and will use some of those, but at this point I doubt they'll use the

portraits at all... i KNOW i don't want to work with her again, i want to stay far away...

BAH! What would you do?!

I think I have an ethical question, maybe it's a lesson learned...i welcome you to share opinions

no contract, quick 2hr shoot for headshots, a portrait of the two of them, and some detail shots of things around

their studio...i charged for the shoot and the digital files would be sold separately online....

odd thing: a week before the shoot she says to me " what if i don't like the photos?" - fair enough - I say that

if the problem is technical, and directly attributed to mistake in shooting i made i would re-shoot...and that

would be the only time i would do it at no charge...anyway...when she asked, i knew immediately that no matter

what i did, she was going to complain.

i go to photograph them, they are arguing almost immediately and continue to as i try to understand what they

wanted me to photograph around the office..by the time i go to do the headshots, they were fighting in a

childlike way, a door was slammed and swear words heard...i had to separate them and tried to work that way,

rather awkwardly, to make portraits of them that "expressed who they were".... and now they saw the proofs she

calls to say (among a million other cutting and defensive remarks) that she doesn't like any of the portraits.

she says in there is 1 that she finds acceptable....she also says that she was "just playing a game" with her

husband cause he looks better angry...and she contradicted herself a handful of times with other details, etc...

ironically...or not...the single photo of herself she likes, her face is directly square to the camera and she's

smiling with all her glorious teeth showing. THIS is exactly what she told me, during the shoot, that she DID NOT

want...i have those shots and will be proofing them for her....not sure if she's the type to be happy regardless,

until she gets another shoot free and torments me once more

----

what to do about this? thoughts? has anyone ever had a similar experience? just wondering if i should stand up

and NOT do a re-shoot for free... ?

if want any more ramblings on the topic...lemme know :)

cheers:)

AFTER ALL:

All images have been recovered! The card was jammed up due to my deleting of 100 RAW (with corresponding large/fine JPEGs) during the wedding shoot.

Thank to those who offered feedback, support and all the information and opinions.

I'm sure other "humans" will learn from this mistake. Some will refund 100% and offer costly re-shoots, maybe even get punched in the nose or cry themselves to sleep for a month....and the others will send their card to Tallyn's and get it all back and wake up from the nightmare.

Thank you times one million to Scott Tallyn of Tallyn's....

"i could have realized I did this AT the wedding and then puked on the bride..."

what I should say is this:

"i could have in my PANIC of not seeing the images on my card, THOUGHT i formatted the card and then puked on the bride"

so I sent my card off Puralator yesterday to the golden hands at Tallyn's -- (thanks for pointing me in their

direction!!)

i HIGHLY recommend them, even though I'm not sure how much data he'll be able to recover he's going out of his

way to help me out ASAP -- and believes there is a good chance i'll get most if not all the 500 images back (NOT

900 as previously thought)

to AGAIN clear things up -- since some aren't reading my updates & still commenting....

1. I DID NOT REFORMAT THE CARD (only THOUGHT i did when I first noticed the files missing, and when i posted my

original message i was obviously ETERNALLY distraught)

2. WHAT HAPPENED: I didn't reformat before the wedding (which IS part of my workflow-system, and was a HUUUUUGE

oversight on my part) SO, by the middle of the speeches i thought I was going to run out of card space &

proceeded to delete the 200 or so images from a previous shoot, one by one... apparently this caused a block up

of some sort on the card, making the files unreadable in the camera & computer....the information is all there

still, just needs a genius tech Dr. (ie. Scott Tallyn) to get it back.

3. Noting the importance & responses to my post - i will of course update everyone when i hear back...

I'm glad to see some of the comments, and hope my asinine error of not pre-formatting helps someone before they

go through this gut wrenching experience, I'm trying hard NOT to question my career right now - why IS it so hard

to realize that HUMANS DO MAKE MISTAKES, including Presidents, professionals of all walks, great athletes,

photographers and parents?

Thank you to those who are offering prayers and support -- and for sharing their own nightmare stories -- And

what was earlier said is also VERY true -- things could be a LOT worse....from car accidents, strokes, or ... i

could have realized I did this AT the wedding and then puked on the bride...

i want to clear things up here. it turns out i DID NOT OVERWRITE THE IMAGES.

the 4GB card in question has only 396 files visible on it, and the counter says i have 5 still available. NOW

thinking rationally, when i do the math there are 508 images that are not 'visible' on the card (both when it's

on my computer through the reader & when in the camera) My other 4GB that is full has 909 JPGs on it.

and when i think of the shoot more clearly and less teary-eyed -- 508 is what is missing, NOT 900 -- there is no

way with what is missing from what i shot that it totaled 900...wow, did my emotions take over my logical mind.

SO --- i will be sourcing the BEST of the BEST to recover this 'invisible' information.... following up with some

of those suggestions of this post -- and will let you know how it turns out....

may the gods, angels and tech wizards be on my side - your prayers are welcome.

bp

ps --- one big lesson i learned today was exactly HOW passionate and emotionally connected and involved i am with

the work i do, i think i am in the right field.

first i must respond by saying thank you for all the advice. it is very helpful and i am sure it will help others in the future.

second, i must tell you that this is one of my most embarrassing screw ups in my personal history, (and there have been a few before) and to add to it I shared it on the photo.net forum.... i jumped the gun before i had all the facts in my seekign of photographers advice... when i had uploaded all cards & didn't see those shots immediately in the gallery i paniced (i also didn't note the exact number of files that were on the card in question when i uploaded, it was the last one i did and walked away for lunch...it seems confusing now to try to explain myself...i think there is still a chance for the images...

as well --

i didn't realize what a response i would get from the forum (i'm not an overly active member), and now i fear that some comments may also jeopardize my reputation, above and beyond what i have already done on my own, and will have to do my best to correct... i would greatly appreciate it if members kept their brash remarks to themselves -- i'm sure i've already said them all to myself in my own head anyway.

i am a professional, and will handle this situation as one, if i cannot or even if i can recover the files...i have already started to create a plan to help prepare for handling the issue with my clients. Following up with the technical advice and sparing no expense to see if anything at all can be done for the card.

Speaking of the card, it has frozen my finder, giving me spinning wheel of death as i try to access it...i am nervous to force quit the find (it's been frozen for about 4 hrs now) the last thing I saw in my finder window when the card's folder was opened was 87 frames then a series of symbols, no file numbers, labels or of images whatsoever -- so i do believe that i didn't FILL the 4GB card in question, and that there is some sort of error with it...

I have insurance as well and will be in touch with them (thanks for that advice), and believe me I have kicked my own ass all day about this, i don't really need to be told what a dumb mistake i made....

i do accept my actions and their impending results, I do know with confidence that from the rest of the 2000 images will still excite and please the couple... i know it's pretty freaking bad, but it could have been worse... i WAS on-point the whole day, and really caught creatively and professionally into the action, why i blanked out for that split second...i will never know. and i can never get it back, i can only go forward.

I am definitely grieving this as it is a devastating and disappointing loss for all involved. I can assure you, I will never forget it, and hope that in my young career I can go forward into photography confidently...i was NOT going to lie, you'll notice I wasn't suggesting that i would, only seeking advice on what others would do... so thanks to those who offered their advice.

I am going to hope that i can recover files from the card -- as although there seems to be larger problems at hand than my flash-human-mistake, i have hope that there is something there.

sincerely

bp

Hi -- I just posted on this topic, but worse because i can't even blame technology -- if anyone would like to travel over to the new wedding posts mine is called something like "NIGHTMARE ----900 images lost"... I've read this post and wonder if any of you can help me out?

In my desperate state of guilty grieving I would greatly appreciate any suggestions/advice.

thanks greatly

katt

hello,

I despise myself right now, and am racked with guilty feelings for the Bride & Groom, the entire party, the

family and for myself and my portfolio.

Last night i shot one of the best weddings of my career, i wasn't nervous, i was creative, funny, entertaining &

spontaneous. Halfway through the bridal party portraits my 4GB card ran out, so i replaced it with another in the

middle of doing headshots of the 20person bridal party.

All were in good spirits, so i lined them up school portrait style to have them come in and give me a nice

portrait then a funny face for laughs and to keep people entertained. It went really well, everyone had fun

making fun of eachother -- THEN i did the Bride with her ladies, the Groom with his men.. then we had an extra

hour so went to a pub unexpected -- took over a VIP room, everyone had pints - i shot that, got some really nice

candids and captured the whole feeling of the moments, the bar even let us do a big group shot with the gals up

on the bar & everyone crowded around... moments of pure gold -- then to the reception, where i got great shots of

the receiving line, candid portraits of the moms and dads and grandparents, then the big family group shots...

card ran out. then after the next card in the middle of the best mans speech i changed cards and unknowingly did

the unthinkable, i formatted that golden 4GB card... UNKNOWINGLY... and proceeded to FILL it with silly dance

floor stuff (with considerably less emotional meaning than the original content)

It was this morning when I uploaded that i realized what i had done. i've spent the last 4 hours having a fit of

guilty crying and anger at my own stupidity. I"VE NEVER DONE SOMETHING LIKE THIS, and just can't erase from my

mind all the great shot I had, and now don't.

I had them sign a contract with a clause about this kind of error (technical or personal) stating that if it

happened I refund the percentage of the images lost versus successfully captured from the package price... my

question to you dear forum are these:

1. should i tell the truth? Or make like the card crapped out on me? (save my reputation a little, but ethically

i feel terribly)

2. HOW do i really get the value of those images -- they were 900, i have 2100 today - BUT I was there and I know

those were emotionally the most important shots of the day (cause even though the ceremony was important, to this

B&G their friends and the pub, and family were the biggest part of the day for them) ???

3. WHAT CAN I DO?? Any tips on how to soften the blow for the B&G? I am going to have their Proofs ready by the

time they are home from their honey moon, and have some amount of $$ to refund them.. .i could even offer a free

shoot... i have NEVER felt this stupid, guilty and all around horrible about ANYTHING i have ever done....

5. and on the slim chance that a super tech wizard reads this... IS THERE ANYWAY IN the UNIVERSE to get images

off a 4GB that has been formatted and then 100% shot over?

please dear forum members... help! (i'll be posting a version of this in wedding nightmares when i can stop

crying and get on with life)

I suppose that would be an example of undervaluing... not much else to say.... learning curve on the road to operating a successfull and competitive photography company... i'm just starting out, 3 years of photography as my sole income, and def. learning as I go --

a question still arises in me though:

where does one find a program/matrix or pricing calculator that is within industry standard for Canadian markets? How can I be sure I am pricing fairly & operating within industry standards?

thanks-

Here's the biz portion of my email: (please, your feedback is highly welcomed!)

INVOICE BASED ON SERVICES/PRODUCTS PROVIDED

Photography & Enhancements > ($100 x 10hrs) + ($50 x 6hrs) - $1300

PHOTOS/Digital Files FULL Resolution > $240 x 14 = $3360

TOTAL - $4660

Let me first start by noting two items that have been adjusted from the estimate to the invoice.

1. The order has changed from Medium resolution files to Full resolution files, therefore the price has gone up per file.

2. The original estimate included 18 files, whereas you have selected 14 for the final project

I am selling you Royalty Free Licensing of the FULL resolution images, permitting you to reproduce the images in unlimited media, for unlimited "proper" uses (ie. not for defamatory, unethical or unlawful uses) for and unlimited period of time --- Typically Royalty Free licensing fees are fixed and based on the size of the image file.

For pricing, I use an industry standard reference which provides a pricing matrix -- all factors of the commercial use are taken into account and a price per file is determined. This reference source quoted $590 per shot at full resolution...after I saw your line and the plan to bater clothes for photography was made, I was excited to collaborate with you and discounted the stated usage rate to something that seemed more reasonable for you, while staying within my professional and also industry standards.

As a wedding photographer, if a client wants to purchase the full res file, I charge $200/file for personal use -- As you are using the images for commercial purposes, I see the adjusted rate of $240 to be very fair. Of course as owner of the photographs copyrights, I may use the images for Self Promotion and my website.

You mentioned on the phone Friday, that you aren't expecting me to drop the rate, only to explain it further. And, actually, with the adjustments to suit the project the balance has decreased. I hope this helps to explain things further, I'm not sure why your friend was questioning the price if he himself is also a photographer?

Before proceeding with creating and sending your hi-res files to your designer, I would like that you confirm via email to the terms of our agreement, thank you.

Alan:

I charged and hourly rate -- $100/hr X 10 hrs for the shoot...

I have an email exchange agreeing to my estimate, which included the shoot & the fee of $210 / digital file... I wasn't going to bother with terms & just provide the files to her as RF....

NOW > she's curious for me to break-down the method which I got the price of $210 (for this I used Masterfil's matrix, and then reduced the cost of $590 to suit the designer's budget a little better) .....

I'm just drafting the email now -- with the aim that it will serve as a second written agreement (even though prior to the shoot we did not have a signed contract, we did have verbal & email agreements)

---- thanks for your help so far everyone, your advice is very much appreciated---

that's what i feel - and i shouldn't and don't think i need to justify my pricing, given a) the quality, b) the

hours and really fair rate i charged for my time c) it's been agreed to already...

when she met with her designer (who is also an amateur arts-photog) he questioned the price...and so now she is...

thanks :)

I'm still welcoming thoughts still on using masterfile for pricing commercial images :)

hello helpful forum members,

i recently shot a 12 hr on-location photo-journalistic style fashion shoot, i had previously quoted a price which

was agreed upon via email...now she's wanting me to break down my quote...this is where i need some help.

the images are going to be used commercially in a look book -- at the POOL tradeshow in Vegas for spring/summer 09.

There are 14 images, which the designer wants at FULL FILE SIZE...retouched and colour corrected...

I went to masterfile.com (as usual) to get an idea of what Royalty Free images of this nature, and for this use,

would cost... i got $590 ea. -- knowing that's a bit steep for this designer, I lowered it to $210 ea.....now she

wants me to break it down? do I have to, how can I justify (if i even need to) the cost of the full digital files?

HOW DO I PRICE THIS?

Do fashion photographers use a system like masterfile's to come up with pricing? I've spoken with studio photogs

who use masterfile's system to quote on all their jobs... is this not the industry standard for pricing digital

files? or am i missing something in terms of fashion photography?

Thanks in advance ~ kat

Lauren - you just did the shoot? can you do it again? and shoot him on a white background?

if you are just starting out - i would reccomend not assuming you can fix everything in photoshop and SHOOT to SOLVE the problems...

Take a white sheet(a bed sheet would even work, taped up on the wall) and then have the boy stand 5-7 feet away from the sheet....and then light the sheet so it's almost blown (use your light meter to see that the BACKGROUND is over exposed by at least 1,5 stops) take another light meter reading of the boy's face, light accordingly to get the right exposure and then shoot the boy's portrait.

is it possible to take two photos of both boys at the same time? and then try to emulate the border the Mom has? would it just be easier to re-shoot? at no cost of course, just as a favor to your client to get the look they want - to 'help properly acheive their vision'....

i'm a young professional, and have had to reshoot before... it's a hit on the pride for a few minutes - but the end result is ALWAYS worth it :)

good luck

katt<div></div>

Hello Lauren,

Do you have a copy of the other image for reference?

I think i can help you - or if not at least give you some ideas and you can try it out... is it a rush job at all?

you can learn anything BTW you just have to practice :)

katt topolniski

Toronto-ON-Canada

Hello there :)

I have about 120 RAW files that I want to process into 4x6 JPGs for proof print

purposes...I have CS & CS2.... and upload with NIKON View...

Does anyone know of a way/trick to batch process them? i want to be quick as

they are only proofs - I know that in CS2 I can open 5-10 at a time through

the 'process window' (or whatever you call it) and select the option to open 1 -

10 with the same settings... but...is there another way?

Tips, pointers and suggestions are very welcome ( i am an adanced user of CS2 -

i just have yet to figure out a speedy way to process RAW to JPG [ or hell while

we're at it... RAW - TIFF] )

Merci Merci!

Katt Topolniski

Hello Forum!! You've all been so helpful to me, I hope I can get some feedback

quickly on this issue :)

THE BACKGROUND:

Last year I did a shoot (for free...in 'give-to-get marketing') for a reasonably

successfull independant Salon in Toronto - I then designed, with the images, a

poster for their entranceway. Now they are coming back (sign of a successful

'give-to'get ;-) )

The Salon's new owner wants to post some of images on their website, at this

point I have sent the ones used already with a watermark for his review. The

website is in development currently and I have no idea what capacity they plan

to use the images, I want to handle any/all manipulations (if any) and will

charge hourly rate for that.

THE QUESTION:

I want to charge a flat rate and release the images to them FOR WEB USE ONLY. I

can write an agreement, but am curious of how much to charge...

Is it reasonable to propose $100 an image (if they want around 5 images) and be

prepared to go as low as $75 an image ... and as low as $50 and image if they

take 10? I'm not sure...at all... :) thanks...

Merci!!

katt

PS - i already searched archives and came up with this link > but it seems not

to be helpful for CANADA and small business....suggestions?

http://www.sethresnick.com/price/webpricing.html<div></div>

Hi Guys -

Thanks for the feedback - i was hoping someone had had similar experiences...i've contacted the CBSA - I think we'll be great, the owner has opted to look into a broker or just pay the duty (on $20,000 worth of gear, the guy is NUTS) but they 'exporter' didn't get either th y-38 or the green card filled out.

advice, aparantly it only takes a few moments to get this done and is good for years...highly reccomended before travel with any photo equipment.

you're right CBSA services are very helpful!

cheers,