jenna_g

I like way too many big names to list, but if I had to elevate one it would probably be Robert Frank. Used to be a ton of talented and creative photogs posting here as well, many as good as some of the big names mentioned. The good old days of S&D....<br><br><center><img src="http://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/3765407-md.jpg"></center>

My apologies if this thread got sidetracked a bit. I thought my original statement about Southlake might have some relevenace to this thread, then a few of us got sidetracked. I'm going to answer Vasilis and then bow out so the thread stays focused on the main issue.

 

Okay Vasilis. Minimum wage is the lowest wage an employer can legally pay an employee. This is set by the federal government. It's set at $5.15 an hour and was last raised in 1997. Living wages are minimum wages set by state or city governments that are higher than the federal government's minimum wage. I think 17 states and about 90 cities have inacted a living wage. They vary by location (wage, exemptions, etc) and are basically put in place to try and help poorer workers. Rent control? It's kind of a vague phrase. You have section 8 vouchers which poor people use to pay a portion of their rent. There is an 18 month waiting list here for section 8 vouchers. Also some apartments may be income restricted, meaning they cap the amount a person can earn and live there. No vouchers needed here. The rents may not be much cheaper than the average apartment in the city, but the properties are usually nicer and safer than most low income housing. Still, the demand for affordable housing in America far exceeds it's availability. If there were no programs at all (what we have isn't enough) and the market set prices far and above what low income workers could pay, you would see even a greater number of people on the streets.

Although I might not be as eloquent as you are Michael, I hardly think my opinions are sloppy or uninformed. Economics? Yes I took economics at a lowly community college. I've taken Business Law and a few other business courses as well. No I'm not an economist. Nor did I even finish college. Since you are obviously an educated, economically advantaged white male I guess I should bow out. Or bow down?<br><br>

<i>Jenna, you imply that opposition to a "living wage", that economically idiotic idea that has floated around the last few years, implies one is a racist. Given that the preponderance of evidence is that the "living wage" (along with its plainer forbear the minimum wage, and rent control) harms the very people it is intended to help, you could more plausibly maintain that its proponents are the racists and that the rich, presumably white, opponents you scourge blindly are the heroes.</i><br><br>

Michael I'm sure we could both link source after source that would support our respective viewpoints. What can't be argued is that poverty is increasing, homelessness is increasing, more jobs are being outsourced overseas, more Americans are without healthcare insurance, affordable housing is less available, and the gap between the rich and the poor is increasing. Perhaps you believe in trickle down economics, but I don't. Anybody willing and able to work deserves a livable wage and affordable housing. Nothing you say will change my mind. If you think I'm biased against those who are upper middle class, so be it.

M: True. I don't think racism is as in your face as it once was. Today it's more systematic. For example a local Living Wage was narrowly defeated here recently. There was a highly financed and very negative advertising campaign against the Living Wage and ultimately the measure narrowly failed. Those that would have been helped the most by this measure were single mothers and minorities. I did not find it ironic that the two wealthiest districts in the city were the ones that overwhelmingly voted no.

 

Documenting wealthy white people? I don't think I will ever get that kind of intimate access! I don't know anybody that is upper middle class or above. I live in an income retsricted apartment complex. A single person can't make over 20K a year and live here.

Paula, Funny you mention transient Texans because that used to be a hot topic in the area. I remember debates with other Texans over who can really classify themselves as a true Texan. Some say it's a birthright, while others designated a certain number of years. That said, for better or worse the influx of new Texans has drastically altered the state socially and politically. I'll admit I kind of felt out-of-place in my home state the last 5 or 10 years.

Hi M, Too funny! I can't seem to keep my mouth shut lately ;-)

 

I understand where some of you are coming from, but I thought Southlake's demographics might have some relevance here. I don't think it's farfetched to say people in different communities, or with different socioeconomic backgrounds may react differently to similar situations. The man's activities here, whether legitimate or not, probably stood out more here than they would have in a public event in downtown Dallas. I'm white and I probably would not have photographed this event. One negative experience with my camera in an upscale neighborhood was all it took.

 

And I'm sorry to hear about your experiences in Mississippi. I agree that doesn't mean all whites in Mississippi are bad, but I also think it's naive not to be aware that the South has a history of racial intolerance. It's a reputation that region is working to erase, but it doesn't happen overnight. I think we saw with Hurricane Katrina that problems still exist in the South.

<i>And as for that racist comment about the white middle class enclave being more suspicious, paranoid, etc--generalizations are useless. Your own biases are showing with that sort of statement.</i><br><br>

 

Geez some people are overreacting here. Actually Southlake is an upper middle class community and about 95% white. It's one of the whitest and wealthiest communities in the DFW area. The average home is appraised at $427,000 which is quite high by Texas standards. Compare that to Dallas proper which is 34.6% white and the average home is appraised at $89,000. Wealthier communities have a higher proportion of police/security per population just because they can afford it. Suspicious activity is more likely to be reported and investigated. I don't think it's a racist statement at all. A generalization perhaps, but racist? Good grief! The fact is most upper middle class folks are white. Most are conservative. Many move to communities like this because A) they can afford to, B) they are often further away from poor and lower middle income areas, and C) the neighborhoods are considered much safer.<br><br>

 

So if I offended all of you white upper middle class guys, so sorry. You guys are always welcome in my hood where suspicious activity is the norm!<br><br>

 

Lastly, I hope we find out more about this guy. If he's indeed a pervert, I hope he gets what he deserves, no matter what his background is. If not, shame on the Southlake police.<br>

Travis, I never said the forum sucks! I simply stated that we have lost some very good photographers, not just edmo. When I say he was consistently good, that wasn't a knock on anyone else. I think a lot of others are consistently good as well. Of course tastes are subjective. Some people don't like dark, moody stuff, and others do. I never tried to emulate him, but yes I thought he was darn good, one of the best photogs on PN. Just my opinion.

 

And yes it's about the photos. I think that's what this was all about. A lot of us still here will miss the past contributors because most IMO were very good, but yes this forum will likely bounce back. I know Ray has made an effort to get things rolling again and I appreciate that. Once I get some new images ready I'm sure I'll start contributing more photos than posts like this.

Hi Vivek,

 

Really? I was visiting the Canada Immigration site a few weeks ago and was under the impression that to gain citizenship you had to either have a special in-demand skill, or were marrying a Canadian, otherwise you can only get a short-term work visa. Plus I think you have to have enough money (which has to be verified) to sustain yourself for six months. I'm 0 for 3!

I guess you guys are going to have to start taking pictures of sexy men. Just makes sure they are at least 18!

Actually Eric I've thought about moving to Canada a few times. However since I don't have any special skills I would have to sneak across!

Imagine if Sally Mann lived in Texas.

Hey Brad,

 

Your first part? True. Probably need more information before we really decide. If he's an upskirter I have no sympathy for him.

 

Second question. Well I lived in that area. Not Southlake, but about 25 miles away. And when you quoted me, you left out the last sentence that stated, "That's how a lot of conservative, middle class white folks are." I realize this is a generalization and doesn't apply to all, but there is something to white flight to suburbia (which Southlake is), gated communities, etc. People who live in these areas are generally more suspicious, or you might say alert. I used to live in an older suburban subdivision and witnessed this myself. As more minorities moved in, more white people moved out. The wealthier the neighborhood, the more conservative (and white) it usually is.

I used to live in the Dallas-Fort Worth area and I must say that Southlake is a very conservative, mostly white middle/upper middle class community. These folks are liikely to be more suspicious and paranoid. That's how a lot of conservative, middle class white folks are.

 

Unless this guy was trying to shoot up skirts, I'm thinking this might be paranoid overreaction. I'm not sure how clothed pictures of women or children could be classified purely for sexual gratification. I wonder if this guy was only taking pictures of women and children?

 

Anyway this kind of story is always bad news for legit street photographers. Since 9/11 it's really been absurd. In 14 months of S&D work I've been stopped and/or questioned by police officers, security guards or border patrol agents nine times just because I was carrying a camera. I almost had my camera confiscated for taking pictures on the US side of a US/Mexico bridge.

I'm pretty much with Jamie. Although S&D has always been my favorite type of photography to look at, I didn't actually try it myself until I joined PN. It's been very helpful to get feedback from those who have done this type of photography for many years. And like Jamie I go through slumps!

 

As for artist's egos? Photographers, like any type an artist, have egos. Those at the highest levels, or those who even think of themselves at or near that level, tend to stick together. When I had my first show a few months ago I was excited because I knew I would have a chance to meet other photographers. There were numerous photog shows throughout the area, lots of receptions and one big reception for all of the photographers. For the most part I found those that were already on a professional level to be more ego driven than those who were relative newcomers to the Art Scene. Why? The had already achieved a level of success the newcomers had not. Name recognition, money, whatever.

 

You could say the same about some of the photogs on PN. People like edmo, Grant, Jeff and a few others have had tons of praise on their work. Maria has had a POW on a site that rarely recognizes street work in that capacity. Al on the other forum has reached the same level by self-promotion. Whether or not they deserved to be elevated to such a lofty status here is open for debate, but the fact is they were elevated. They had admirers and followers that most of us don't have. Are they that good, or did egos play a part? I think some are that good, while other's egos were inflated by lavish praise.

 

Ray: Whatever talent I have, it's up to me to fulfill it. I don't think I have yet. My work isn't like edmo's but what impressed me most about his work was it's consistency. When you are consistently showing good work your talent level must be pretty high. All you have to do is look at the last w/nw threads he posted. I don't think many here, myself included, are near being that consistently good.

I see the infamous deleted thread and aftermath is still a hot topic here. Obviously people have an opinion one way or another.

 

I've been a regular here since March. I've seen very few heated arguments on this forum in that time, and even less that could be described as ugly. Much more common on the Leica Forum. Like Jeremy I found the banning arbitrary and reactive. Yes the thread was ugly, but it took an especially wicked turn after one person showed up. Personally I don't think anyone should have been banned, but if a suspension was necessary, the punishment should have been handed out equally to all the offending parties. The way it was handled just gave me (and probably many others) the impression that one man was indeed above the law. I doubt we will ever get a full explanation.

 

So I guess this forum will continue to evolve. Most of us will miss the contributions of edmo and the many others who have decided to leave. Many of the missing photographers happened to be among the best in this forum, so obviously a lot has changed. Whether it was a core group or a clique didn't matter much to me. Their photos were consistently good which I think raised the bar for everyone else in this forum. I imagine in time a new "core group" will emerge and they will be lavished the same praise. We may all be equal as people, but that doesn't mean we have the same photographic ability. I certainly wish I had edmo's talent!

 

For those of us who remain I guess we will continue posting to see what sticks.

<i>does Jenna have a blog/flickr going yet?</i><br><br>Hey Eric! Not yet. Planning on doing something (blog, flickr or website) and I'm in the process of going through my images trying to edit it down a bit. I've posted close to a picture a day since I've been on PN and have a bunch on here I'm not too crazy about.<br><br>As for staying? Well I have not yanked anything yet, but I'm still bummed over the departures. Edmo, balaji, Peter, Maria and several others either have yanked their entire folios or stopped participating on this forum. I'm happy to see some still posting, as well as a few new people, but we've lost a lot of talent here. Lots of those folks really motivated me so right now some of my enthusiasm for this forum has been zapped. For now I'm sticking around, but I'm undecided on how active I will be.

Hi John,

 

Thanks for the kind words! I've wanted some type of site up for awhile. Eventually it *might* be more than just a place to show off a few photos, but for now that's what it will probably be.

 

As for paying heed? It's interesting to see how different people look at Jamie's pictures. My favorites are the old lady, the street sign, the shot of the musician between two people, and the closeup of the boy.

Definitely keep the photo of the old lady. She's classic! If I had had to edit I would probably cut 5, 13, 15, and maybe 21. I know you have a lot of nice shots I don't see there. Can you only do 25?

 

As far as editing goes, I'm finding it difficult myself. Picking my favorite 10 or 15 is fairly easy, but narrowing down the others is pretty difficult. Don't know if I should go by those others have liked, or perhaps some I'm partial to that have not generated much response. I would like to start with about 50 or 60 I think.

Like the pictures Jamie. Slideshows are cool! Was it easy to build? I've been so imtimidated by the process of building a site that I've avoided it altogether. I want something simple that I can expand later. Something where it's easy to add or delete as the site grows.

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Thanks Erica. I will need to do some serious editing before I do a website. I've only had one show and was pretty clueless about the submission process as it was the first time I ever tried to get into a gallery. It felt pretty good to get a few of my images in. I plan on putting together a portfolio book of about 15-20 images and show about 50-70 on a website. I never worry about what I post here, but I need to be more picky with my own site. Like you I find self-editing to be rather difficult. I wrote down about 150 images I'm considering (a few have never been posted here) and I need to cut that in half. Interesting that most you mentioned did not make my first cut. Ponder and Hackberry (which is oversharpened on this site) are the two that did. I've been torn on style and have taken an almost anything goes approach to shooting, but that may become more defined with time. Like you I do enjoy getting close to my subjects whenever possible. The vast majority are candids, but I am more likely to isolate individuals rather than doing crowd shots. I really like your work with children and can see myself doing more of that.

 

Thanks again for your input.

Kipling said: <i>Maybe it's paradox but work can be personal and still be shared with others. It's not really about getting aknowledgment or approval of others you're after is it?

I am not doing this for anyone but myself. and if someone (you?) comments on something from me, i take it for what it is, a comment from jenna. Yeah, I like some of your work a lot, yes, I'm greatfull if you appreciate my work but it's not the source of why i share my pics.</i><br><br>

Well on PN acknowledgment and approval are not top priorities, but when someone does comment I try to listen. I usually weigh that opinion based on that person's knowledge and/or quality of work. I have a lot of respect for many here. I enjoy a lot of the work I see here. If you're looking for recognition beyond PN it's an entirely different story I guess. BTW I really enjoy your work.<br><br><i>

It's just experience, it's all about growing, moving forward, doing, being, creating - a good thread is a creative experience. i like creative experiences, i want more of it, as much as i can get. when i don't feel like this forum gives me anything back creativly, i won't stick around. that's my take on it.<br><br></i>

 

I agree. The best threads are like really good poetry. They magically flow with great photos. Trust me, those threads are more enjoyable than having to defend myself from Ray's accusations. Episodes like that do stifle creativity. In fact all day I've been contemplating yanking my entire portfolio and finding a new playground.

Kipling: Honestly I shouldn't care what others think, but sometimes I do. Maybe that's why I participate in this forum. I agree that our work is personal, but if it's entirely personal nobody would feel a need to post any photos here or elsewhere. So I can only assume that those of us that do want to at least share photos with a few people who are passionate about this type of photography.

Maybe "shoot for yourself" is the right attitude. Of course then you have to decide what's appropriate to share!