andy_piper2

"lns" = "lens"

Visoflex III works on the M8 - Viso II and earlier versions have to be used without the eye-

level finder, since the M8 is a bit taller than pre-M7 cameras.

21 SA lenses are permitted on the M8. Primarily for B&W though, since I don't think Leica

supports them as to coding for use with the IR-blocking filter. So in color you must be able

to fix green corners (with filter) or IR-distorted color (without filter) by yourself.

I don't. (share this frustration)

But I shoot RAW, and the M8 jpgs definitely lose a lot over RAW.

Electronic "anti-alias" filtering + noise reduction + sloppy sharpening routines +

compression all eat away at the image and remove a substantial amount of detail (and the

WB was pretty bad until the most recent firmware upgrade). None of those apply to RAW

images.

I just pulled a 15" x 15" print cropped from an M8 .dng today, shot with a 30-year-old 90

'cron. Looks like a Hasselblad brochure image in terms of grainlessness, detail, tonality

and color clarity. So I'M effing ecstatic!

But it DOES require a RAW original.

Not that most top-end DSLRs can't do just as well - and you even get a free body-building

weight included!

But I have been where you are - back in the fall of '05 before the M8. None of the SLRs

then thrilled me (good and huge, or small and limited). Actually a 5D was a bit tempting,

but I didn't want to get into a whole new SLR system for just one year, and I knew the M8

was close.

I found a stop-gap (Sony R1), and I think that's what you will have to settle for - a stop-

gap digital camera that requires the fewest compromises and will keep you going until the

M9 arrives.

WHICH of the many options out there is the best compromise is something you have to

calculate for yourself - size/quality, viewfinder, cost, etc.

I do wonder that you condemn the 5D for "less than 100% viewfinder" - given that Leica M

framelines only show about 85% of the final image captured, and are 0.72x life-size (or

thereabouts). I'm not thrilled by ground-glass viewing of ANY size, but the 5D seems

better than many.

Just wanted to say thanks again for the guidance.

I ended up with a 503CX - for the same price as a 500CM - which got me the "modern"

screen and palpas coating, plus the "old" status indicator dot. I don't need the ttl flash now -

but you never know. And I find the cutoff with the 180 to be not much of a problem.

Guess I should add that I'm aware a 500C/M may not include the acute matte screen - but I

assume that I can add one eventually?

Terrific! Thanks.

To add a bit more to the equation, as I've been doing my own research, I note that the

newer cameras have

a) added a bigger, more comfortable-looking shutter button, but also

b) eliminated the white/red dot indicating whether the body is "cocked" or not.

(something I find useful as a semi-newbie trying to keep track of all the connections and

interlocks)

Let's see if I can feed this back straight:

500C/M - older body, no gliding mirror, smaller button, but DOES have body indicator

501C - super-simple, no glide, big shutter button, no indicator

501CM - gliding mirror, big button, no indicator

503CW - gliding mirror, big button, no indicator (adds metering)

If that list is correct, then the final questions would be

a) any opinions about the revised shutter button? Is it actually more comfortable and

smoother-operating, as it appears, compared to the skinnier original button?

b) How critical is the mirror cutoff with the 180 lens (I doubt I'll ever go longer) and

without the gliding mirror system. Minor irritation? Major obstacle to composition?

I think I'm zeroing in on either a 501CM, or a 500C/M, depending on those answers and

how I ultimately feel about the indicator dot.

Ran across a deal on 2 recent A12 backs and 2 lenses: 180 CF and 50 CF FLE.

But the dealer had no bodies, so I need to pick up a box to go in between the backs and the lenses.

8^)

What with all the "C"s and "M"s and "X"s and "i"s and "W"s and "01"s and "03"s and "05"s, I could use some

input on picking the most reasonable cube for my purposes. (I do have some experience with the system)

Flash, metering, motor are not important at all, but I gather the 180 may benefit from something with the

gliding mirror for the fullest view? If so, what is the most "basic" version that has that feature? A good

modern screen (or at least the capability to accept them) is also a significant factor.

Any factors to consider if I may someday want a digital back? Connectivity differences?

Also, but of far less urgency, I may eventually be looking for one lens to fill in the gap of 50mm-180mm,

and I guess the rundown on the roughly normal lenses would be:

80 f/2.8 for speed, 100 f/3.5 for better image quality at wider apertures, 120 for astounding closeup

quality but weaker at infinity?

John: Before your spend money on a back - be aware that 2 days after your original post

Polaroid announced all their films will be discontinued. Fuji (it appears) still makes something

compatible - but for how long?

That's definitely something you will want to "watch out for" - OTOH, backs may suddenly get

REAL inexpensive!

Actually, I find many of these to be entertaining - I've seen much wackier engraving and color

jobs than this (and for the record, the palettes of some of Solms' commemoratives were a

little wacked-out as well - red alligator and gold, egad!)

The only copy of an M Leica out there is actually worth MORE than most real M's (Chinese "Red

Flag" M4 copy from the early 70's) - but screw-mount seekers should learn the relative

simple obvious giveaways so they know what they are getting.

There's nothing wrong with having an extra camera around, especially if it does something

different than your regular cameras that may come in handy sometime.

I shoot almost exclusively with my digital M8s - but I keep one old M4-2 body around,

just in case I get a film itch, or want to shoot my 15mm as a full 15mm. And a Hassy with

a couple of lenses I ran across cheap, just because sometimes I want to shoot square

pictures with a square viewfinder, darn it!

Unless you are desperate for cash (and remember that digital P&S are rarely worth more

used than half the new price) you may as well keep the D-Lux. Going back to the "camera

store in your closet" is usually cheaper than going to a REAL camera store.

Your D-Lux offers a change in format (native 16:9 HDTV panoramics at best resolution) as

something to play around with - and is still the only digicam that does that (except for its

Panasonic twin). The digital TV revolution is coming on fast - and you're already ahead in

that format.

And even if you love film as your prime medium, there are always photographic chores

that may not be worth using up precious Velvia or Tri-X, but can be handled quickly and

easily with a digital snap.

As mentioned, Ralph Gibson tended towards the 50mm for most of the shots that made

his reputation early. I think I saw somewhere that he had been working with a 90 APO

recently.

David Allan Harvey's Latin America pix - esp. "Cuba" - is about 90% 35 'lux ASPH, with

some 28 and 50 at the margins. He is rumored to be using a 28 f/2.8 ASPH on the M8 =

"37mm".

The 24mm focal length is a pretty recent addition to the M line, so not a lot of time for

anyone to build a real body of work yet.

And telephotos are not the strong point of an RF, so while they exist and work OK, if

someone is committed to a tele as their signature lens, they are likely SLR shooters (viz.

Jay Maisel with the Nikon 180mm)

Neil: "There's some dispute over the accuracy of the original information referred to by the OP. According to other sources, it seems that M8s with the alternate shutter and LCD cover will be shipping towards the end of the year and the upgraded features will appear on the default production version - a so called M8-2."

To be factual - ONE other source, not connected to Leica in any way, who refers to a friend of a friend telling him...etc. And there's hardly a dispute - one guy out of about 100 posts says his GUESS is they will incorporate the upgrades into the production cameras at some point.

Personally, I'd love it if they did - and think it would be smart. But let's not exaggerate the info that we really have...

Martin - you're saying you can tell whether a shutter is actually firing at 1/1000th vs

1/250th by looking in the front of the camera at the shutter against a black pressure plate?

You have a better eye than I did at 20 years old.

I check FP shutters for speeds above sync speed by looking through them at a TV set (US-

type) that scans the whole screen in 1/60th sec. The amount of the screen illuminated

becomes a horizontal bar that gets progessively thinner the faster the shutter's actual speed.

Someone can correct me if I miss on this - but any "III" Leica can be identified by the fact

that it has two shutter speed dials - one on top for 1/1000 - 1/30th, and one on the front

for 1/15th - 1 sec. Not sure what distinguishes a "c" from an "f" - but I'm sure someone

here does.

A IIIc was the first Leica I ever owned - bought from a fellow student in college in 1973

for 100 bucks (including f/3.5 Elmar 50).

It is a very pretty piece of mechnical workmanship.

I found the biggest practical drawback to the IIIc (which it shares with almost all the other

screw-mount Leicas) was the inability to check shutter operation by looking through the

back (since there is no opening at all - not even the trap-door of the M series). My

shutter, it turned out, was self-capping at speeds 1/250 and faster - and the only way I

found this out was when I got blank or partial exposures at those speeds.

No way to just look through the shutter and see what was going wrong. So be sure to try

out all the faster shutter speeds on your first roll, so you know where you stand.

And assume you may need to get a general clean and checkup (aka CLA) to get it fully up

and running.

Torben, you may be right about other parts of the world. As I said, it's not the only way to

handle an advance purchase, but it's also a common one.

OK (per Guy) - yes, any M8, in or out of warranty, first, second or third owner, can be sent

in for this retrofit, and any Leica may come up with in the future. Same price, same "new"

2-year warranty once the service is done.

It is purely an optional change, neither covered by nor requiring the "original" warranty.

Also - the price is Eu1200 - flat, no VAT calculations or discounts. The exchange rate of

the day you order will determine the dollar, yen or bolivar price your credit card bill

reflects. (sigh!)

"It's not an economic issue for me; rather, it's Leica's departure from conventional

business practice. A $300 dollar sign-up fee would accomplish the stated reasons (Leica's

or others') for wanting full payment months in advance."

Hmmm - do airlines charge you just a deposit when your reserve a ticket for next month's

flight - or the whole price?

Do symphonies (or sports teams) charge you just a deposit for the last show or game on

your season ticket - or do they require the whole amount up-front months in advance?

The one cruise I took was reserved 9 months in advance with a deposit - but the full fares

were due 3 months before sailing date.

Seems like a very common and conventional business practice - if not the only one.

Durr: Yeah this was just Guy's preliminary summary - he drove Phoenix-Las Vegas-Moab

in one day (along with the time spent at PMA in the middle) so he hasn't compiled

everything he learned yet. Getting some shuteye.

I had up to 5 four years ago or so, when I was trying the M6ttls in various finder

magnifications, but am back to just my original M4-2 (being CLA'd and re-covered at the

moment - it was in ugly shape). Plus 2 M8s.

I sort of treasure the M4-2 because it was my first, and I did some serious good stuff with it

- plus I love the Canadian-era glass that matches it. Other than that it's just a box (in the

ultra-compact size) to hold film behind a lens and keep the dark from escaping.

Larger than 24 x 36 is a rumor - and even so, it just means "larger", not "a LOT larger".

My own prediction is that the R10 gets a 27mm x 36mm sensor (which is larger in one

dimension): 4:3 "magazine cover" or "ideal" format, with the option to shoot it cropped at

24 x 36 (with electronic finder masking a la Nikon D3) and possibly even 27mm x 27mm.

If Leica sticks with Kodak and their standard 6.8-micron pixel, that amounts to two M8

sensors on one piece of silicon (no seam). A 27mm x 27mm crop would be 16 Mpixels -

exactly the same as the Hassy CFV back for the "clockwork" cameras. The full sensor

would be about 22 Mpixels - "Barnack" crop would be about 18 Mpixels.

So they would be playing at the lower edge of the MF range, and well above any other

35mm-based digital except the Canon 1DsIII (and whatever may come along using Sony's

new 25Mpixel sensor - likely Sony/Nikon/Pentax).

All just my speculation....

(BTW Leica actually made a profit last year - so they are "struggling" a lot less than they

have in the past...)

Guy Mancuso over on the LUF just had a sit-down Sat. with Leica execs at PMA and filed this preliminary

report on the upgrades to the M8.

1) They are not being added to new cameras - i.e. Leica will not be sending new M8s out the door of the

factory incorporating the upgrades. The basic M8 as we know it will continue to be the camera sold. Next

year's M8 will be just like the one you can buy today, and you wil have the same option as current owners

to buy in for a retrofit - or not, as you choose

(Dealers may be able to have new cameras upgraded before sale, and sell them at an "upgrade-included"

price - but that will be solely up to the individual dealer).

Think of these as "options packages" as on automobiles.

2) There will be other upgrade "packages" eventually besides the LCD/shutter package announced

Thursday, but none are specified as yet.

3) You will be able to get the upgrades at any time in the future - i.e. you can get the first one 1-2 years

from now, not just this year.

4) And future upgrades will not be mutually dependent - you can skip the first and your camera will still

be able to accept the later ones, or you can get the first, skip the 2nd, and still get the 3rd or 4th or both

if you want (and you can even get them done simultaneously once they are available, avoiding having to

send in your camera multiple times).

5) By paying in March, you are basically buying a place in line (as well as the retrofit itself) - Leica wants to

have a firm idea of how many cameras will be coming in for upgrades and allot spaces so that they can

reliably meet the 4-week turn-around. Like an airline ticket, you are paying now to fly later...

Consider these numbers:

Canon 1DMkIII new today: $4,500

Canon 1DMkII (no "n") from 30 months ago, used value (per KEH): $1900

So would it have been better to acquire upgrades from Canon over the past 2.5 years (first

the"n" and then the "III") for - say - $3,000 total? Paid in steps?

Or sell/trade your 1DII for $1400-$1900 and come up with $2600-$3100 cash to

"upgrade" to the III (leaving aside the AF issues).

Come next October, your M8.1 may be worth $3600 - and the new M8.2, retail, may be

$6000 (the dollar being what it is). Would you rather sell and buy new, for $2400? - or pay

$1500 for the upgrade (remember, no VAT charged for U.S. customers - deduct 19% from

the German Euro price).

Actually, the R9 is still listed on that site - you just have to dig down to it.

But it IS no longer manufactured, although some dealers still have a few. Among other

things it was not compatable with new EU regulations regarding electronic interference

and hazardous materials, so a replacement would have been needed absent any digital

onslaught.

Lenses are still being made and sold.

Leica did a 'trial balloon' offering the Digilux 3, 4/3rds SLR, which can accept R lenses via

adapter (with a 2x crop factor). Not real successful on the market.

There is a top-end R-mount digital camera coming - sometime. PK '08 is possible, even

likely, but not certain. Zero details have been released (and it's a firing offense in Leica to

leak anything, so there likely won't be until management is good and ready)

"I've had a digital M long ago it is called an M6 and a Nikon scanner, sorry this is miles cheaper than M8.X"

I had one of these too. Finally got tired of having to stick dollar bills in the back every time I wanted to shoot another 36 exposures - sort of like those pay gas-meters one has to feed coins into to keep the heat running.

"Let's not jump on LEICA for something someone stuck up on a mystery web site. Time enough to thrash them if it turns out to be real. "

OK - go ahead now. There seems to be official confirmation from Leica in the form of e-mails to M8 owners and dealers reaching out across the internet as we speak. Not on the website - yet.

Actual upgrades will begin in August, but "certificates" can be purchased as of March 08. No price listed in the emails. Upgrades as previously described except that essentially a full CLA back to factory specs is included (not surprising given that replacing the shutter would mean a full strip-down anyway)..and "as-new" warranty for 2 years.

There will be new firmware 1.12-something available within the week having nothing to do with the "m8-2" phenomenon - just new firmware for all current M8s (better WB claimed - we shall see!)

Obviously there will also be new firmware as part of the upgrades as well - if the shutter no longer goes to 1/8000th, firmware designed for a shutter that CAN go to 1/8000th won't work anymore, even if nothing else changes. (d'oh!)

No news yet as to if/when "M8-2" cameras will be sold over the counter, or at what price, etc. etc.