william_littman

If any one does a search for Diwan Bhathal in Photo.net, every post every response is strictly dedicated to defamation of my name and product while he claims that he has made a camera that outperforms mine in every regard. almost a year ago I confronted him with the technical aspects to prove he was lying and he said; " yes but mine is a toy camera and Its not for sale".and then when he was made to face some of his own medicine he rapidly stated" Moderator! stop this! its not fun anymore!" . As I informed Mr. Bhathal many months ago his claim of " his camera being his introduction and his idea was libel and defamatory" . Weeks ago I received notice of allowance from the USPTO and the patent issue fee has been paid which means that within a few months " his camera" will be patented under my name

with a protection date back to 2001.

Once again I am forced to disclose technical details before the time is right because this person resorts to defamation as a means of poking

I have designed real improvements for such configuration so as to overcome any obstacle present and was hoping to introduce it when the time was right if someone wanted to make it.

Once again I am forced to disclose technical details before the time is right because this person resorts to defamation as a means of poking. I did not post images of this improvement on my first offers because I was busy protecting the improvement and couldn't afford the time to deal with Mr. Bhathal interferences which sprout every time I introduce something. I mean he did start a thread to trash my camera and tell everyone his outperformed mine but he had no idea of what my im,provement looked like so while the thread caused a lot of harm by the use of lies its not like I have a choice.

But the case is that It will be an insurmountable task due to the ensuing efforts by Mr. bhathal to utilize photo.net to interfere with

the public perception of everything I say or do.

What Mr Bhatia has represented regarding his camera is libel.he has used that misrepresentation to discourage many from investing in many other viable products.I can understand that Mr. Bhathal has nothing better to do than harass me but I remind him he is taking it out on the public when people hoping to trust their investments seek

advice on how to spend their Money.

I do not believe in using the discussion forums to advertise products

nor that I should be cohered by defamation to have to respond to these attacks .I have already announced a long time ago that I do not accept any business from members of photo.net because this individual and a few others who has declared repeatedly that he will not buy my product and is making every possible attempt to discourage everyone else thru the use of libel and harassment is allowed to disrupt my business unfairly for whatever motivates him, whether he is one of the two people trying to sell products here using an alias to discredit me or simply obsessive makes no difference ;

In any event my camera does not have counterweights but a piston type arrangement so as to correct any error in the front standard so it can remain parallel to the film plane at all times. it allows for precise adjustment and when tightened it acts like a vise which compress the parts with a torque of hundreds of pounds which yields arms which are much sturdier. I doubt they will require any future readjustment since accuracy is not achieved by any bending of the arms as previously required , but if it ever did require adjustment then the capability is present.

Anyone who has a speed graphic and focuses thru ground glass can ensure the front standard is parallel to the film plane by using the tilt control as a temporary adjustment in each instance if the front standard is slightly bent but most existing cameras have some variance on how parallel the front standard is to the film plane and

because most LF work was done on a tripod and thru ground glass the fact that the planes are not perfectly parallel can be easily compensated for.

Rangefinder; the word range in rangefinder applies strictly to the measurement of distance and not to any acceptable tolerance as in the use of the word " range like saying, " it ranges between this and that or the other" therefore because the telemetry accuracy depends on both planes being parallel and in most cases this was not present or could be better rangefinder has been perceived by many as something which guestimates by aproximation and this misconception stems from the idea that you can utilize a measuring instrument and expect precision independently of an actual structure being utilized.

If you take a light meter and get an accurate reading but your shutter speed is off you don't get a proper exposure and in this case the light meter may be independent from the camera altogether but whatever the rangefinder represents can only be true if first the planes are parallel which in turn allows for the camera design to hold true and in its best configuration which otherwise it is nothing but a fiddling guestimate which has a lower performance than expected.

someone can say they just close the lens and everything is sharp anyway but if the planes are not parallel than one side will be softer and its great to have this if you want selective focus as a control using tilt but the inability to have even focus regardless of rangefinder considerations is considered as an unwanted swing or tilt or both.

Reference to bridge construction was made in reference to the L45s 5 front standard where strengthening of the front standard by bracing / welding and other methods proved to be just as counterproductive as weak front standard because something strong is harder to correct and while more resistant to impact that does not ensure it is straight or can remain straight.again his misrepresentation of my words is defamatory.

I have already announced this improvement does not add any weight because it is light and weight has been removed from somewhere else where it wasn't needed. Mr. Bhathal is again misrepresenting what he knows to create dissent. that is all he has done on photo.net is instigate dissent against my product using libel.

this improvement has already proved to be a major benefit and a couple of manufacturers of traditional LF view cameras are already interested in licensing the improvement for their products.

It is my purpose to make a few cameras for those interested in taking better pictures and with the emphasis on creativity and it may be true that in order to overcome these attacks I may somewhat overcompensate when stressing the importance of creativity when many would say that has nothing to do with a camera.

Exactly! it doesn't but after wasting years of my life dealing with the harassment of people like Mr. Bhathal I found the cure which was to limit my efforts to be on behalf of those motivated by the imagery itself and if I had to write something that sounds like " war and peace" and makes little sense to nuts and bolters let me just say it worked perfectly as photography is something where beauty comes before age and age does not matter.

Whatever it is I have made or will make relates to small quantities and as it is not readily available by impatient people who feel everything and everyone should be made to appear instantly at a click of a mouse on your computer monitor to amuse you or tell you what you want to hear and the case is that not everything can be subjected to a vote. That makes people like Mr. Bhathal very angry and so he tells everyone they should vote to destroy it.

The improvement has proven to yield major utility as it allows for a perfect parallel between the film plane and the front standard which can then mimic the behavior of a caliper, as a result telemetry can evolve into tele micrometry and the design or implementation of the camera cam can be made more precise and then the adjustability over time can ensure the settings remain true. No other camera had this and its not more of an improvement it needs to be . it allows for subtle adjustment and subtle variations. Mr bhathal makes a lot of reference to age and appears to be looking for climax and is frustrated that metal structures fail to provide appropriate arousal" no fireworks here" he is right there are no fireworks here and there will be none intended. it is a very good improvement but after the initial excitement of having achieved it myself I have forgotten about it when I took one of the cameras which included it and saw the picture and the technical improvement took second place to my joy after seeing the photograph.an improvement is nothing more than an obstacle removed and trust that I do feel obligated to account for what I claim and which I can prove with the use of tangible structures and by the opinions and results obtained by my clients that is where the benefit can be appreciated.

The L45s was started while telling everyone who bought one in writting that the original front standard has weaknesses..despite that we corrected them which allowed the product to perform well while we perfected the implementation of the improvement of the arms. now everyone who owned an older model can upgrade it to be able to ensure great performance over time.

Im sure certain identified people will insist this is not required but I have verified this problem in cameras they made and which have ben examined by many others. I also have proof they have already admitted to never attempting this .they assured their struts were straight, which in some instances I verified otherwise and if they were straight at some point nobody can look you straight in the eye and assure you7 they can or will remain straight because that is impossible if it is fixed by bending it will inevitably bend back somewhat. and I have proof that was all that was ever attempted by others..My improvement is not obvious , and statements made by my opponents prove it was not obvious to them. end of story I have proof it is novel, and has the required level of utility. no more no less.

The real question is that if Mr. Bhathal finds everything I do to be so insignificant then why has he dedicated the last 2 years of his life to speaking about it trashing it and then claiming to outdo me and insist what counts is the imagery and that large format just gives you a larger negative.

Mr. Bhathal please be advised that in a few months coupled parallax rangefinder 4x5 or larger will be patented with

a date of 5 years ago. and is already the title of all my issued patents ..come up with whatever you like just don't come here to misrepresent it was your idea. that is libel and defamatory.

Your malicious lies and aggrandizing yourself at my expense. your ensuing misappropriating claims of introducing Ideas I have introduced years ago has increased my cost of production enormously and unfairly deprived me from performing work for my clients who have to pay more for my product. that is a burden in itself because it makes it harder to sell. but then you admit that is your intention when you insist you would not will not buy my product and insist everyone else should do the same

If my posts are long and appear to lack communication skills it is because I am responding to unfair attacks and having to distract valuable time and neglect my work as a result and hope to say whatever it is so I don't have to divert even more of my time to this because everyone knows these instances are intended as an excuse to allow certain identified people to proceed to advertise products and services after they or their friends find some excuse to tell you not to buy mine.

On September 23 2006 this site modified its terms of use which it is therefore obligated to enforce on all members alike which ratifies the following;

No Soliciting

You agree not to use the Site, other than the Classifieds section or any discussion forum where the policy explicitly permits, to advertise products or services or to solicit anyone to buy or sell products or services.

Anyone who makes anything may have different opinions about what others make but that is no justification for people to advertise products or services here .

This website states it is intended for peer to peer education that means " users" but anyone can use an alias to come here and discredit products unfairly and then invite himself to plug his own or as has been reiterated be invited by a few that say they don't mind it because they get bribed by DIY tips

After all which has happened I dont believe anyone who inquires in photo.net about my product has a sincere interest in it after reading the sort of abuse given to those who prefer my product by people trying to use this site to plug products and services

here is another instance in which the same handful did exactly the same thing.

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00HZY6&tag=

Mr. Engel and everyone else:

Happy thanksgiving

If business people are expected to surrender to objective analysis; that is not what has happened in photo.net.

2 individuals admitted to orchestrating a Defamatory campaign against me and my product as a means to admittedly extort me into waiving my rights ,resort to solicitation and proceed to advertise products and services on the threads in violation of the sites policies.

As a result I was unfairly prevented from doing my work for years while these people boasted they were doing that to stop me or at least keep me busy.

When I presented evidence between September 18th 2006 and September 26th so as to clear my name this evidence was destroyed and deleted

alleging that forum moderation was off topic for the LF forum when the fact is that those who favor expression will tell you that nothing which constitutes evidence is off topic on a legal matter if it is required to allow someone being defamed the right to clear his name.

This website allowed businesses to post threads which are commercially oriented postings by businesses, these people made false imputations and misrepresented the facts as a means to then tell people to not associate with me or my product and to purchase theirs instead.

Whenever my clients offered an objective response to the performance of my product and in some cases after trying mine and theirs they were chased away by the people trying to sell products and by their buddies who invalidated them and told them that if they already knew they were interested in my product and wanted to buy one then to go away and "leave the rest of us alone".these people admitted the defamation should remain posted as a means of discouraging people from associating with me or buying my product and when someone stated" I want to buy a Littman camera the person who admitted to starting the defamation as instigation said he was surprised that this person was even considering such decision after reading the defamation and perhaps he should read it again.

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00HZY6&tag=

Despite the burden placed upon me by such defamation and the ensuing refusal by this website to remove it despite the fact all of it has been admitted to been instigated , malicious , false and intended to cause harm; I nevertheless and at great cost proceeded to dedicated the time to confront the technical aspects and demonstrated the differences in the tangible and technical aspects to the best of my ability but it was the insistences of my opponents who disputed my findings and choices which proved I was telling the truth as in later discussions they embraced my positions which they had disputed earlier to insist these were their ideas. which is again nothing but further defamation.

The answer is none of it is worth it and I have no intention of forgetting the law as you Or Mr. Mottershead suggest and as I was publicly humiliated by Mr. Mottersead on this thread on august 30th 2005 and as a result of the pain and suffering I nearly died 5 days later which is something I am really trying to forget I remind Mr. Mottershead that he had stated the following on a LF thread

"Brian Mottershead , aug 05, 2003; 10:07 a.m.

the Terms of Use state that forums aren't to be used for classified ads or for commercially-oriented postings. "

" the non-commercialism policy is not one of the things that is left "up" to the forum participants or moderators. "

the intellectual property policy of this site at such time stated that the site could not be used by anyone to violate anyone's intellectual property rights

None of the original threads or these fake DIY threads instigated by the same people to plug their products and services should have been allowed.,

Instead of doing the right thing when I presented the evidence the website moved to suppress the evidence and inform on September 23rd 2006 that the editor in chief had stepped down and they proceeded to change the terms of use and remove and evidence that would show wrongdoing by photo.net and the terms of use were modified as a result.

The pendulum between expression and reputation oscillates between the two. some favor one over the other but the justification for expression is always a quest for the truth but here it has been repeatedly admitted that the purpose was to harm my reputation as a means of self promotion by a few.

When a few are allowed to admittedly resort to defamation and harming others reputations is the case in these matters where written threats to resort to these defamation for solicitation tactics were sent to me by email by the culprits as a means to extort me into surrendering my rights because they admit they " can sure use the publicity or that the threads would be started to " leave it up to the public to decide" when the fact remains that defamation which has been admitted false and malicious was what was presented for the public to decide and then they were sent to read it again at each turn such defamation would benefit the sales pitch .

I would like to be able to concentrate on my product and have been waiting for over 3 years for this website to stop allowing businesses to admittedly trying to stop me or at least keep me busy.

As to what constitutes defamation and inducement of infringement you can find clarification at the bottom of the following page

http://members.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=littmanphotodesign

Taking 10 years of my life to make something be better than expected was worth it, being cohersed to overcome the negative effects of the admitted defamation was not because in the end I was deliberately deprived from clearing my name and the defamation remained so that a few could misrepresent that the good thing for such defamation to remain is that it would appear in searches and hurt future sales.

I thank you very much I will not surrender to these tactics and Im not being asked me to forget the law but decency itself

I wish you a happy thanksgiving and that it may be a great opportunity so that you may all be able to enjoy the reputation and respect of your peers that you have worked hard to earn without causing harm to the reputation of others.

sincerely William Littman

A remarkable photograph, greatly enhanced by the very fact that the color rendition is off.

Try correcting it in Photoshop and the magic is gone. take the color corrected image and this one to the best gallery and I bet you that they will choose this one .

Your approach to the image and composition suggest an artistic interest, you succeeded/ it was not what you were after but you got more than you bargained for.

I assisted some of the best art photographers for the last 30 years. their faces lit up when they made such mistakes.

Sometimes film can be like wine and sweeter with age otherwise there is wet films as an option or Fuji makes a film which is more truism but if anyone wants truism and 4x5 they will probably use negatives.

I really like it.who care if the colors are off the chart , not right

they are right for the picture which looks great.

the gamma ranging between pastel oranges and violets gives a pastel feel which ads to the romanticism of the image.

If you were shooting a portrait / annual corporate report for a corporation I would be concerned. your film may be expired but it is November and most likely a temperature issue. they had cold clips for the 665 type for winter shots.

" A vistor to this thread might really just want to know the performance,

> handling and costs issues of the Littman "

They did and as you witnesses your own negativity last month when someone wanted to know just that

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00HZY6&tag=

When people wish to know the performance of my product and start a thread

to ask about that to those who would know the people you instigate for show

up and resort to unscrupulous and forbidden solicitation while invalidating

their prefrences, insulting them.telling them that after reading the negativity you reffer to that has been refered to as " admitted instigation", How could they consider such a purchase"? as refering to the Littman or telling them they are trying to prevent them from making an expensive mistake.

The reason that people offering products and services are not allowed to here is demonstrated in the post on another thread which was made by Mr Brewer and while I have no clue as to who he is refering to his consideration that aplies to the point I am tryin to make is his comment that reads"and can't understand why a brother photographer(he participates on these forums) would do this."

The answer to Mr Brewers question is" brother photographers who participate in the threads are not people posing as such in order to peddle products while daring to invalidate the educated opinions of those most proficient and in the end admitting that in their own personal experience the use of better tools never did make a difference, the results were still crap! but hey you should take their word that their camera is no different / no less . they guarantee that from their own personal experience and dont forget that the experiences by those considered most proficient are just smoke and mirrors.

"Jonathan Brewer , dec 31, 2004; 03:23 p.m.

The above exchanges focus on the neverending truth that there are always two sides to every story, I never dealt with Ron Wisner, but it seems to me from reading about these travails over the years that he is no con man, by the same token, it seems he needs the business end taken over by a business manager while he just makes cameras.

When a deal doesn't go right, the bad taste in your mouth lingers way beyond the deal, which is what I hate about somebody taking my money and giving me less than what I expected.

I negotiated with a gentleman to buy a polaroid 4x5 conversion, for a lot less than a Littman, we agreed on his price, I thought it was a great price, I repeatedly asked him about the condition of the camera that would be used in the conversion since I was not supplying him w/a camera, and I didn't really get a straight answer, going on the pictures of his previous conversions it looked as if he was a reputable guy that would supply me a camera in great condition.

I sent him the agreed on price, I eventually got the camera, and the camera part of the conversion was dry and 'squeaky', the camera baseboard was ugly, the camera would 'hang up' halfway as you tried to close it, where you'd have to pull up on the struts to finish closure.

The conversion works as the lens is in decent condition, but the camera is 'beat-up', the workmanship of the conversion is acceptable mechanically but cosmetically ugly, specifally he didn't countersink deep enough so he has screws sticking out where they shouldn't, the hinges that secure the back where they're fastened to the camera, look 'raggedy',..................so what I'm left with is a camera that technically works, but which I won't be able to sell, and even if I do, I'm still without an alternative but the Littman which I don't want to pay for.

I didn't get what I expected, I wasn't told upfront what I would be getting, in terms of the cameras condition and I asked. I would've appreciated the use of a better camera in the conversion, and better workmanship in the conversion itself, and can't understand why a brother photographer(he participates on these forums) would do this.

If you're thinking about buying a camera from him, INSIST on an accounting of the exact condition of the camera he will use in the conversion if he's supplying it."

Whatever actual grievance this client may have does not interest me. what concerns me is his comment that he went such route felling that someone posing as a brother photographer used photo.net to solicit his buisness and if he feels misled he is correct and as far as Im concerned not about his actual performance complaint but about

the misuse of photo.net for the purposes of solicitation by unscrupulous people who pose as fellow photographers to promote products and services.

Recently I said Nikon would not show up on a thread discussing their product and someone responded" are you comparing yourself to Nikon? No there is no need to compare the rule of no solicitation exists because otherwise unscrupulous people selling stuff will try to convince you that Holga is equal to Hasselblad .

This thread was started with malice as to create dissent as a means to promote products and services after having started another thread and presenting it here as if it was started or instigated by another as was reminded by

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rich Silfver , oct 03, 2003; 12:48 p.m.

Dean, what do you mean "after reading the following link"? Didn't you start and participate in that link?

What's the purpose of opening up another one just to point back to your own link?

The purpose was to use my reputation and standing as to gain publicity as these people threatened me they would, then discredit me and then tell you not to buy my product.

Mr Flanigan please....

" A vistor to this thread might really just want to know the performance,

> handling and costs issues of the Littman "

People who really want to know"the performance,

> handling and costs issues of the Littman " want to know from profficient photographers, real users and not from unscrupulous solicitation telling them not to buy it while they plug their own.

Well I see on that post " that it works well" and I have had to read several times where you wrote on photo.net that you had resorted to this defamation first because you could " sure use the publicity" and then that you kept this going as long as you did to" stop me or at least keep me busy.

I have made a dedicated effort to improve my product and have succeeded at great cost and effort despite these interferences

the cameras which I sold on that site were the earliest prototypes and rental units and apparently they still work after 6 years , now if unscrupulous solicitation and interferences and defamation as a means of solicitation cease I will improve design even more.

People admit to resort to these threads to prevent you from doing your work and then accuse you of not being able to do your work. great taste. this sort of thing has been going on for thousands of years but this site forbids it and the thread has been declared closed by the person who started it.

Mr. Flanigan has convinced everyone that those who aren't rich get his vote

and those who are get belittled. My clients aren't rich and neither am I and in what refers to

the so called 4H club Mr. Flanigan assured everyone that what happened there

stating;

"Kelly Flanigan , oct 04, 2003; 11:05 p.m.

We hand cut 4x5" ortho films; and loaded them in old Polaroids; in 4H club 4

decades ago"

Translated into English /loaded film by opening camera in the dark and

repeating same afterwards to remove. " no conversion present" and that was

his " evidence" at a time when he was instigating to have my rights repelled.

Mr. Flanigan is entitled to his resentment of rich people. but the " rich" is just an excuse by those who admit to never have had any better result by the use of better tools but waste peoples time breathing down everyone's neck telling them what to buy, what not to buy. that is downright rude and inconsiderate.

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00HZY6&tag=

This website offers freedom of expression to its members as per the first amendment but clearly excludes solicitation and the rallying of such causes by its members.

The person who started this thread told all of you

Dean Jones , oct 13, 2003; 06:05 a.m.

As it was I who instigated this discussion, I feel that I should have a word in closure."It is my opinion that a legal Patent should be respected then he told all of you that "such a posting has such an active role in self regulation. My thanks to all and cheers!"

Such postings have, had and remain as an admitted means of solicitation using defamation against our name to achieve it and as this site forbids to all its members we have the right to expect that this flip flop cease as stated by the person who started the thread and then declared it closed.

Thank you.

When the Polaroid corporation learned of our product they granted us the standing of POLAROID OEM MANUFACTURER.

we undertook this project close cooperation with Polaroid as they were enthusiastic as surprised at what we had to offer as much as were my peers.

to infringe on a trademark you have to " use it"/ we don't. none of the Polaroid OEM manufacturers call their products to be Polaroid

We use certain parts and it is disclosed in the public domain that these parts are made by Polaroid. we use other parts from other companies and we use our own parts.

As per the policies of PN and the clarification offered by its senior editor we have the right to expect no further interference .

Great!

I'm under the impression it is rude to ask a woman her age, I assumed again that you are a male but Lee may be used both for male and female and I don't know anything that would help me determine your gender any more than in Jeans case even though you have been around longer because I haven't ever considered that until you start instigating your paranoia, you didn't have to answer if you didn't want to. The truth is I hadn't considered it and perhaps such info should appear next to peoples names so people like you can sleep better if it is that important to you to establish such things.You may have made that perfectly clear in the past but I have not read anything that I can remember that would tell me except again I assumed by your tone and I would not have asked twice .If my assumption was wrong I apologize second if solicitation is forbidden its instigation is too.

Mr. Hammiel I feel I have answered the question regarding Jean and you are being abusive by insisting I provide you with information I do not know.

If I made an assumption as to gender you went on to abuse this person and my clients and their judgement. how dare you keep going down this path?. I havent insulted this person or asked for their buisness . if you feel that I was in on this thing from the start then you are asked not to adress me further as you are insulting me.

As to the second part of your reiterative question I understand you " want a simple answer" I have given you an answer. if that does not answer your question then that is the answer you are receiving.

AND patent or no patent nobody is supposed to use the forums for solicitation .

My god!!!

Mr Hammiel how old are you?

I cant believe you are concerned about gender and origin but if you must know before you can go on with your life, the fact is I have no idea which origin or gender classification applies to Jean but I assumed that may be male because of the assertiveness, generally with Women the word would have been "je voudrai" or I would like to buy a camera rather than want and then the name sort of points me in that direction regarding origin and his mention of Raymond Depardon also . jean may be male or female French or American. I don't care and that you keep asking me is insulting. how am I supposed to know.

Do you? why do you care. the bottom line is you suspect this person is ill intentioned and have acted extremely rude towards this person with insinuations and allegations, not real and you have accused me of being this person. pedestrian yes. manners?. you stay on your side of the road and I prefer to avoid it.

if you are not partisan in one way or another why do you refer to yourself as "us" and kick this person- send them away. I do not like the way you address this person nor

the fact that once you are given a response you keep prying.and you have doubted everybody's judgment.

While you may be a photographer and I am a photographer what is being discussed here is something that in what applies to me is business and I do not choose to

satisfy your curiosity or anyone else's in a public forum

You are not part of a company but partisan to the ensuing solicitation on these grounds and have turned this into a dissection of character , gender and identity

Mr. Jones if you have any questions for me that you truly wish to communicate on you can do so by proper channels. what upsets you most or least is your business but it doesn't justify you using photo.net to advertise products on the basis that you and I have disagreements. it is not I who says that.it is a business practice expected of everyone and no rhetoric if you have a problem wit the site's policy then have them change it

and please do not waste any further of my time Thank you.

Jean

I am sorry your identity was doubted as has been the case with anyone expressing an interest or approval of my product.

Mr Jones and co.

I am not going to invalidate or belittle your photography skills."......even the under 12`s section displayed more talent than that which you posted here" well you know there is a lot to be said for those young..." those pictures were taken 20 years ago and 18 years ago with a 35mm camera and are re photographed from tearsheets..

I respect your choice for your own artistic choices as everyone's creativity should be respected perhaps that gets put aside when these forums are ambushed by people trying to peddle goods instigating animosity and partisanship but I believe you were not joking when you made the comment about equipment being better or worse and making no difference because it is consistent with your position and assurances throughout these discussions when you assure products are equal when it is clearly proven that is not the case. it also goes to explain why your reservation on the price after you obtained no greater benefit either way..

"It has been my experience that a crap camera can give a great result in the hands of the right person and a great camera does not make a fine photographer. As a kid I played in a band, had a jerkoff idea that a better guitar would improve my playing.........it didn`t, I was still crap. I`ve bought expensive cameras hoping my photography would improve.........it hasn`t.."

I do not believe you were joking when you wrote that but that you found a moment to distance yourself from the salesman and get in touch with your feelings one would have to believe that or otherwise be certain you are a hypocrite if you now insist that was a Joke.

The " up with people" advice that we should all get along is great. get your hands out of the cookie jar, let true users guide themselves to the best of their ability and dont feel invited to show up on PN to advertise products because someone mentions your name because every 5 seconds some product gets cited and nobody shows up to plug their stuff..Im not defending my product but my right that my product gets reviewed without your interferance

I have no quarrel with your photographic skills or anyone else's it is not the skill that is being adressed regarding your comment but the belief that equipment itself would make no difference . the fact is that a camera does not require to be in the right hands to be a better camera and be a better aid to everyone alike, the same applies to the guitar My mother finally agreed to help me get the Gibson acoustic which was not the most expensive but at least when I struck a chord it would sound like a concert hall independently of how well I could play it, my playing sucked but because the guitar sounded so good as opposed to the previous one my playing improved dramatically and though you might disagree I felt it really helped because I was able to learn that certain actions would yield more pleasant sounds as before everything sounded as rattle and hum. no matter what you did nor who did it. I never did become a Zappa but my playing was something I cherished for years after such change.and my parents were also grateful it was less noise and more music like .

Certainly it is true that a camera itself does not make a better photographer but photographers came here because they believe a better camera would make a difference or the concensus is they would buy nothing and whatever may be the case with any product it is the pressure from someone trying to promote a self interest which is questionable. the fact that you take the podium and then refuse to let go and tell others to leave is really questionable because you shouldnt be here in the first place.

I mean seriously most people would find it inappropriate that you proceed to market a product and speak of financial value in comparison to others when you admit that your opinion is based on the fact that better tools or worse in different fields of interest to you made no difference and it all depends on who holds them and therefore you feel entitled to discourage those who represent that better tools have made a difference while in their hands as opposed to other tools. that is what is being adressed . people are discussing equipment here not hands and everyone agrees that if they hold two things one on the right hand and one on the left they can make a choice, the joke is you posing as one of them to discourage them on their opinions as to sell your product

You are of course entitled to your opinions but if you believe that a better camera would not prove more useful to everyone alike independently of their skills then perhaps you should tell people to save their money altogether for their retirement because in the end most of these people say they already own '" some camera" that has been a response you received in many instances from people who believe what they owned for less would suffice .

I mean this is truly insulting to all ; Do you think photo,net would allow Pentax or any other to show up on a thread titled " I want to buy a NIKON camera" and allow Pentax or any other to first proceed to advertise their products ask the guy or girl how he /she could even consider such a decision after reading all of the discredit you have instigated and insited should remain posted as a means of self regulation excuseme( self promotion)? and then if Nikon shows up to confront the situation then Pentax tells Nikon " Now go away for everyone`s sake." People just don't behave in such manner . and perhaps Jean was quoting Jones when refering to boring debates

"Dean Jones , mar 21, 2005; 02:16 a.m.

This is becoming a bore! I have NEVER discredited you or your product"

Well let us remind you that you have discredited and invalidated anyone who has ever prefered my product after trying yours , those considering it, my work ,my creativity , and my reputation.

What was that....? misrepresent everything? please.

The question you should be asking Mr Hammiel is where is everybody

to whom you have refered to as having poor judgement and you told Jean to pay dues take the beating or leave. sounds to me like youre all buisness:) maybe he chooses apr preferes to communicate with people in a different tone and I can speak for him but I know my clients do and chooose to avoid communicating with people who knowingly ask you questions over and over again .threads are supposed to be free of buisness related postings or solicitation, that is all Im after and Im not going to post pictures taken with my camera because you taunt me because that would be a plug so i will post a couple of pictures I took years ago 1 for vogue and one for lofficiel. all I have here is a small minibook which is 4x5 Polaroid prints . all the best W<div></div>

Mr. Hammier information regarding patent applications pending is confidential. If you speak of poor judgment perhaps those who trust you with their confidentiality and privacy would raise their eyebrows at your after hours behavior.

For the rest of the issues the answer is that Jones and the rest have engaged me for years on these commercially oriented matters and to which I have responded .

It was not my choice to have to deal with this but I did and I have stated my opinion and my position. any change or outcome to commercially oriented matters must be handled or addressed in the proper channels of business by the interested parties and considering that these matters have been addressed at length and most members found them to not belong in a photography forum and boring which was my position in the first place.

I have no interest in communicating with anyone on matters which are commercially oriented, and this website insists the forums cannot be used for postings which are commercial in nature if something related needs to be addresses I will deal with that In the right place

Right now somebody asked a question about my product, if the responses do not benefit the competition and have to again resort to creating dissent and attacking my clients and my product by any means I have reminded this website that these people are not supposed to be here in the first place beyond that I have nothing further to say and as per the terms of use neither do any of these people.

People alleging that I started this thread are insane and I have no interest in any of this.

I don't know if Jean is from France but as he or she mentioned Raymond departing who is French and also happens to be my client I assumed this would be the case. Now I also don't know if Jean is a man or a woman but seeing the way you guys treat women around here I was kind of hoping she would be a man after Jones once told aggie that it would help if male photographers evaluated her camera because she was a 'Woman".

Then Mr. Bhathal machined gun her with requests for info and disputing her right to choose and finally the fact remains that materials pertaining to editorial " to be published" are considered confidential/ under embargo until published and questioning her choice pending disclosure of such data puts her in a position you either violate her privacy or end up facing further discredit,

This has nothing to do with patents or claims. manufacturers of shops are not allowed to plug products whether they are patented or not.

and a patent is a document issued by the department of commerce any alleged grievance presented by people trying to sell products constitutes a posting which is per se commercial in nature .

This is therefore off limits whichever angle these people choose to justify the solicitation it is not allowed.

my clients have volunteered their opinion and do deserve to be subjected to further attacks .Some will believe I am Jean? so be it.

I am not trying to convince anyone to buy my product here and since it will not get a fair chance when people tell you they are trying to prevent you from making an expensive mistake while plugging their own sales while not noticing that those who bought their stuff decide the expensive mistake was their product. whatever the case may be these choices are to be made in forums free from the claws of people plugging their stuff otherwise it is a joke and a laugh. that is all one can expect .

good typing may be a measure of something but that changes when people are attacking you 20-1 the same people for 3 years . i cant type I use 2 fingers but I can take pictures thank you

I'd like to point out that Mr. Rowe was not addressing people plugging products as he did not expect them or their buddies to show up and antagonize him after the owner of photo.net has clearly stated

"Brian Mottershead , aug 05, 2003; 10:07 a.m.

the Terms of Use state that forums aren't to be used for classified ads or for commercially-oriented postings. "

" the non-commercialism policy is not one of the things that is left "up" to the forum participants or moderators. "

No Soliciting

You agree not to use the Site, other than the Classifieds section of the Site, to advertise products or services or to solicit anyone to buy or sell products or services

Furthermore Jones insists that getting a better camera would make no difference to his photography but has spent the last 3 years belittling the opinions of the most qualified, the most renowned photographers and the magazine reviews and is holding the podium here by strong arm tactics with the aid of a few members admitting to receive diy tips in exchange for safeharbor.

The point is that this website offers freedom of expression to its members under specific terms, solicitation does not qualify within these terms and people posing as " us" while all their opinions , grievances and actions are undoubtedly commercial in nature is a scam.

Whether your neighbor will be happy for or resort to discouragement because you have a better car is a risk we all take and as far as I'm concerned some here have not sided with my product and it is their opinion, I'm not going to defend my product but remind all that it has been under attack by people who admit they could not take a better picture with better equipment and on the other hand have annoyed everyone in PN for 3+ years speaking of products being equal, no different or that they outperform. Neither of these three standings can be established by someone saying that a better camera will not be an aid for better pictures, surely I have shot for Vogue with a Kodak disposable but have obtained different or better results with different equipment.

The ensuing dismissal of standings alleged to be originating on a silver spoon coupled with the admission that no matter what camera the results are similar or without improvement shows everyone the origin of this stubborn disbelief in the value of subtle differences which can yield to a camera being less in the way for pro and novice alike.

Surely Mr. Jones is not the only one who has verified that getting a better camera would not make a difference but he has spent the last three years barking at everyone speaking of differentiation when in regards to performance he admits differences present when he says the camera " was better" made no difference". Then when plugging his own product insisting it is no different we know where that is coming from and how to value his opinion.

Mr. jean who I don't know dared to try PN and as everyone else finds that debates by people insisting that a better camera produces the same results in their hands than a lesser camera but spend years barking at the standing of competitors and when those who were enticed by Jones and Schwartz come here and say they have tried their products and mine and prefer mine they then assure everyone to have the expertise to dispute that and harass them further and humiliate them.

Carlos bought one of Schwartz cameras out of eBay and chose mine after trying his but regardless of choice by an individual the shutter on that camera could use some help it is a prontor svs, an amateur version which is ok but will require more service and cla than a copal.

there are other businesses such as SKG and others which are flooded daily by request to transfer the aperture scales to copal shutters because the old clunkers are ok but fail more often, it is unfair to business in general to allow a few to solicit here,

I really tried to help PN members by giving advice which does not benefit me financially but in the end I was chased out at each turn by people trying to solicit business for themselves as in

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00Dg6c&tag=

So I came to the realization that I can still consider myself as " us" in the sense that I am a fellow photographer but regarding my participation in these threads I'm not " us" because I sell a product and they are not " us" either, these people cannot continue to be allowed to pose as " users" because the bulk of their actions within PN amounts to solicitation, instigation and defamation as a means of solicitation. when all fails you can always use a few alarming headline style keywords hoping to attract further attention as they seem to believe there is no such thing as bad publicity.

In the end what remains is that people offering products and services are allowed to not only use the podium but retain it thru strong arm tactics, You see that their supporters will speak of " poor judgment" but then tell you"At first glance when this thread started - I had a feeling that it was a shameless self promotional plug albeit under a different name. "

If you notice" their friends are resorting to"shameless self promotional plug albeit under their own names" but that is ok. it isn't..

If this website will chase out newcomers and seasoned members will act a la Statler and waldorf telling people " you just joined and you already want to buy one?" they are delusional nobody buys my camera because of what they read in PN, people only get discouraged By Jones and co. and now that we have confirmed that a better camera would make no difference in his hands I take this opportunity to apologize that you have been annoyed by these people for this long but as you can see it was not justified.

Im sorry these people will try anything, the last time around it came down to the religious origin of a name and quite frankly I don't know if these people are speaking about conversion circumcision or religion and this time around you are required to have been around for a period of time and your name must be " Land".

I hope these people land, jean asking haters to refrain sounds like a contradiction in itself but note he also tells me to put a lid on it and quite frankly if more isn't known about my product is because a lot is public domain in the opinions of the best who continue to embrace it, when that is undermined by the ensuing attacks on standings by Jones and co. then Jean comes here wanting a tangible= real contact with such standing and when it arrives these people and their palsy has to go ballistic telling them to go shove their enthusiasm you know where because if you come here you sign up for a multiple dose of plunger and you will be discouraged, if not today they will be back every day until you are pleading to sign anything just so you can retain your will to live. Trust me it has happened to me for 3 years and I don't wish that upon my clients, so thanks for what makes people feel that you are my friends. That is the way I truly feel about all of you and hopefully this website will enforce its policy and regain integrity and we can have some time so that the friendship can flourish and I have more time to give you better service

I apologize to my clients for the abuse they have had to endure and hope this website is free from the claws of solicitation. a few of my clients have sold their cameras used for more than they paid for, many want to gel more but few want to sell theirs. I have already taken the steps required to ensure that is the case in what concerns my interests

Absolutely disgusting....Boy how low can you go; now we are down to religion....

Not only am I Jewish , both Littman and Littman are Jewish names. what is real is that when I was but a small boy Ben Gurion was having tea at My house and while signing a silver bible he told me a story of how My mother had joined Golda Meir and Eleanor Roosevelt in events around Manhattan to raise bonds for the formation of the state of Israel. He said that My parents really helped. My mother was presiding WIZO.

The capture of Adolph Eichman was orchestrated at my house by Golda Meir who met with the ambassadors of all the courtiers where the plane carrying Eichmann to his trial was to land for refueling because in those days they only had prop planes. Interesting that after the plane left Buenos Aires; the next day 1000.000.000 took to the streets to protest his capture as being a civil liberties violation and most unfair. a few years after that My parents 5 story hardware store was burned to the ground, they thought it was an easy target.and the house where that meeting took place was buldozered and leveled.

While my grandfather was a photographer for Evita Peron many years before that The family had rented a condominium building my parents owned worth more than 10.000.000 they of course never paid a dime of rent and one day her mother who handled the bribery money just so that rich people were allowed to stay free showed up with a lawyer and had my father sign over the deed to the building, months after that when they confiscated all of my dads businesses and sold then to their friends they sent the money to Switzerland instead of giving it to the poor as they claimed. the money was used to buy a residence outside Madrid Called Puerta de hierro ( IRON GATE).

After they confiscated my dads businesses they thought he was an easy target and a JEW and Peron had received the gold from the German submarine in exchange for letting the Nazis hide in Argentina so they put my dad in Jail. they thought he was an easy target.

Years after that when he returned to Argentina and the streets filled with terrorists and leftists guerrillas they tried to kidnap me to ask my dad for random and they thought I was an easy target but I smashed the guys hand with the car door and escaped. I had to exile to Spain for a year and one day on a taxi ride the cab got lost and I got to see the mansion that was bought with my money.

20 years ago on a train ride from Munich to Milan on an editorial assignment I was forced of the train on the Austrian border by a guard using religious slurs on a night which was 20 below farenheight and almost died from hypothermia in the desolate station, he thought I was an easy target.

this is only about 10 % of what I have experienced first hand but you don't go around life with a chip on your shoulder using membership to a religion as a justification for everything that happens to you.

Find a shrink and go away everyone has had to face adversity but not everyone needs to use that as a business card. publicity may cost a small fortune but I did not have to spend a dime when my product was recognized but had to spend a fortune after the threads because these guys would rather find an easy target than have an expense.

I'm not pleading here. its the rule no soliciting no matter what religion you are from. despite all of that I felt that the teachings of Jesus were phenomenal and he was a Jew anyway so when I had to do the military service in my country I was allowed to attend law school 1/2 day after the basic training and had a chance to learn some great things, I have studied many religions and find greatness in all of them and fail to see how someone could use religious considerations for marketing a product.

Please go moan somewhere else, life is not a fairytale welcome to reality. with that said we don't need your religious fear mongering, spam or the lies . If you don't like people using discrimination against you and find that unfair perhaps you should consider that not stopping the discredit of others to promote yourself using lies might bring bad Karma .

I didn't need you to dump your paranoia and present it as if it were mine. you told everyone in Photo. net that I would brake into their email folders and years after you admitted that you said that in order to get me to sue you? You are insane. that is a federal crime to endanger an individual with that type of accusation not to mention the fact that I had little or no internet business for almost a year. do yourself a favor and shut up whatever religion you are from is reminded that I dont judge it based on the behaviour of this individual and I invite everyone to do the same.

"Noah Schwartz , aug 25, 2005; 04:46 p.m.

The first Polaroid 110 camera I saw 'converted' to 4x5 was brought in to Marty Forscher's when I worked there about 25 years ago"

You cant claim an idea as yours after saying someone else made it first, stop the flip /flop . if you insist that you have made something for 25 years and there is nothing to show for and threaten someone asking for prior art that they better say away from you because " You Can SURE use the publicity, that is extortion and blackmail and might be a form of obstruction of..... The emphasis is on "SURE" why would someone claiming to have come from a qualified background need to discredit someone else in order to obtain publicity. We all know the answer to that .

these threads admitted as enticements for solicitation did not start last week but 3 years ago. the grievance alleged is itself solicitation and as explained earlier any business is entitled to the same exposure but none are allowed.

The fortune anyone is entitled to should arrive from the fruits of their efforts and not by using banana peels and lies to make others trip. Mr. Fromm whom I don't know and have never communicated with said it quite well. It doesn't matter who is right on any given issue. and I say whatever the case may be businesses should not be allowed to instigate dissent as a means to solicitation no matter what the case may be.

when someone joined the slugfest asking "

"Noah Schwartz , jun 05, 2006; 11:13 a.m.

What would be involved in having all Littman listings removed from ebay on the basis that the claims of it being a 'new' camera are false ?"

that again shows the intention behind their actions, he joined Photo.net to fulfill threats he made against me, and again it is a lie because I note that it is used but a new issue of a modification rather than one which has been used as such for years.

Please stop betraying peoples trust and grant them some peace and quiet.

"Dean Jones , jun 13, 2006; 11:49 p.m.

A 'Quadrangle' was someting I stood in at school.......obviously 'Quadrangulation' was something I should have thought about whilst standing there."

Something you should have thought about whilst standing here is that you have used Photo.net to admittedly create dissent thru justifications which by now have been proven false as a means to promote products and services after which you seem to be the one who must be obeyed when you wrote"

"Dean Jones , oct 13, 2003; 06:05 a.m.

As it was I who instigated this discussion, I feel that I should have a word in closure."

( You always feel like you should have the last word).

"It is my opinion that a Patent should be respected. "

( if you cant respect your own opinion don't expect others to respect it either and after turning this website into a magnet for antagonism by disrespecting your own opinion you can feel that you should have the last word but it isn't merited)that is why all you can do is tell jokes, sad jokes.

"The input provided by William Littman in this matter is much appreciated, but at the same time, such input must be considered as words only".

( great marketing ; tell everyone to respect someone else's rights because it is YOUR opinion while of course completely invalidate and silence mine )

Claiming self regulation he decreed to start more threads to create dissent

" would be met with disdain and result in appropriate action through this medium arising once again. It is for this reason that such a posting has such an active role in self regulation. My thanks to all and cheers!Dean Jones".

Self regulation ??????????

The other day Mr. Jones said "We did not instigate ANY of this behavior and most will agree it makes for a good laugh once in a while.". hypersensitive ?

some have no sensitivity whatsoever after insisting that posts have a role in self regulation as a trick to instigate some more every time he feels like it.

I felt it was the right level of sensitivity to have had to confront the tech issues in terms which were photographic for years but most insensitive that such was met with words such as OGRE and so many others , jokes discredit and orders that I should say something of value or leave.And regarding repair what comes to mind is that when Jones held my camera in his hand he had to resort to yet another taunting rally on photo.net to get me to provide him with instructions on how to fix it because he admitted he had no clue.Regarding my work; it takes time. such time belongs to my clients and any justification to have diverted any time to responding to assurances which were false and proven so was because I was impeded from selling my product.when dealing with repair I wouldnd need to taunt these clowns to get instructions but I do need the time to do the work.

Some have no sensitivity and others have to overcompensate . Ce la vie!

I gave the tin camera a heart and its more sensitive but the tin men cant tell the difference for obvious reasons and have to tell jokes instead , the joke's on them and decent people are not laughing with them but at them.

This is absolutely sick!

Did anyone fail to notice that Jones offered the following as an apology?

"Dean Jones jun 11, 2006; 03:03 a.m.

Apologies guys, I only started this thread to make public the fact that Littman`s were available from China, at a much reduced cost, especially pertinent now Mr L has finally gone......." which proves that he started the thread to cause harm ., silence the facts.

On August 30th 2005 Mr. Jones went to announce on a thread that I was about to be reprimanded by PN using words that indicated he knew beforehand what the owner of the site would say.

On a different note a student insisting he wanted to copy a littman after visiting my site received instructions and inducement and encouragement/ assurance to proceed on this website by Jones and co. and when we introduced our patent pending designs to the new finishes to our product at the NY photo expo plus which this student attended and examined our new product this student moved to steal the thunder in connivance with Jones and Co. by posting a camera he said to have made for himself copying our designs and " may" have patent, design patent and copyright considerations but this last week he went on to post an identical camera for sale which he claims is a second one on this website for sale again at a time when we had an offer for our own product . having to deal with the Chinese spoof or the knockoff by the Chinese student in NY while it is clear that whoever started the fake auction is related to these people or is one of them. In any event this website is allowing its members to violate my IP , allowing solicitation and allowing businesses to interfere with our work schedule .

When it is clear that Jones is using the site for solicitation to sell products and everyone is tired of the taunting .I do not need to speculate nor care why this website chooses to allow this individual the solicitation , moves to edit any posts which prove his intention to cause harm,

He went on to tell everyone in PN how they should think on October 13th 2003" The input provided by William Littman in this matter is much appreciated, but at the same time, such input must be considered as words only Dean Jones" on every subsequent thread he has either said my contribution is so far of no value and has nullified and suppressed the words of everyone who has tried both products famous or novice alike. in the end he boasts to have accomplished his goal when everyone who disagrees with him has been silenced. congratulations to the preserver of freedom of expression and making sure conflict of interest is not in your way. Silence the facts. treat everything as a joke and proceed to promote yourself as the purveyor of instruction for sale insisting you are a intellectual property fee zone but the instructions you obtained via taunting when you were holding products you admitted couldn't understand why or how they would work, such instructions are your own ideas and therefore are copyrighted ? but be sure to remember that anyone considering the products are different has erratic personalities or is a fruitcake.

Please have some decency and stop taunting like a 2 year old! and take the spam with you.

It is not my fault if people keep making assumptions having to do with trigonometry.

First they said a rangefinder using triangulation would make you dizzy and not to buy it,

No rangefinder exists without triangulation being present.

I repeat a rangefinder beam forms a triangle as a means to determine distance in itself while most people expect triangulation to be used as in maps were 2 points of reference may be considered in relationship to actual position to determine linear distance.

In a rangefinder those 2 points of reference are determined artificially by mirrors within the camera apparatus and distance determination is a result of the utilization of the rangefinder once operational and not the subject I refer to as clearly specified when I stated that while a triangle may be used to measure distance and a LF photographer is not expected to be interested in that or how the chip on his Minolta meter measures exposure but certain it contributes to his photography but he does expect that those who spam his email folder with assurances of experience and bully everyone who disagrees into silence would be capable of determination and seeing differentiations claimed as dismissible. diferentiation is what is expected in order to determine the value of a product.These people use PN to discredit the value of my product and my work while admitting to keep me busy to prevent me from working.

I explained clearly that my additional work with angles had to do with the fact that in a rangefinder the angles of the triangle formed by 1) subject 2) see thru mirror 3) follower mirror cannot be altered . but the angles of the mirrors which delimit 2 of the corners of such triangle can have an effect on the pitch and behavior of the beam.

I am speaking of angles outside of what you consider the classical quadrangulation and not intended to be used in the measurement of distance but as to affect the behavior of the projected beam. there is an additional angle which comes into play which I have successfully used to refine the beam.

As stated by someone earlier the use of a triangulation to determine position or distance is old, no photographer need know it exists when using a rangefinder but it is at work .

This person and the others have diverted me from my work and the time which belongs to my paying clients when insisting there are no differences. the differences were proven by their own admissions.

They taunt me to disclose tech data and then say its their own idea? not going to play that game any longer. If the triangulation were not present you would not have a rangefinder. but I am not referring to the measurement of distance but to something else. I can live with these people saying that what I have used and proven is gibberish because I have proven that the most elemental photography knowledge is gibberish to them both in their words and found present in equal manner in structures examined and in our possession.

I read that " people who come to America should sing the American Anthem in English" I agree. I do .but my English could use some help . I am a photographer and perhaps not the first artist who became interested in science and ideas while not being a mathematician I remind all that I can and have proven the differences in layman photographic terms . whatever improvement may result beyond standard expectancies is not something I need to justify to anyone on this matter because my product exceeded the performance of theirs on the very first model and no angles need be involved in demonstrating that which has been proven in layman's terms.

Photography is an universal language many greats have never spken or written a single word of english.

If my use the word quadrangulation is not the right word then I remind all I'm not a mathematician . perhaps I should call it angulations interrelationship between a triangle and a fourth angle or the perfect term will be found when time permits.but in any event if the quadra issue would be clarified then they move to say my camera is made art the expense of the suffering of some poor animalwhen the coverings are synthetic or discredit the name so Whatever!

The triangulation as a means to measure distance and other standard trigonometry considerations is ancient but my use is aimed at something different altogether and true it should not be of interest to Large format photographers unless it is misrepresented by my opponents as a means to deflect attention to the basics as it is shown below.

TECHNICAL ISSUES

Jones recommended installing a lens in shutter with wrong scale with +/- 1/2 stop error on a camera intended for exposure evaluation and saying that is favorable

http://www.photo.net/bboard/uploaded-file?bboard_upload_id=28471484

when confronted with the facts to remove any confusion he responded with" There is no problem like no problem"

Dean Jones , feb 26, 2006; 11:39 p.m.

Well Mr Littman, forget phony formulas and angulations... cold facts are that in this case the pics speak for themselves. Obviously the reason there is NO PROBLEM is easily explained by the fact that there is no problem. Consequently I suffer absolutely NO exposure discrepancy when replacing the 127mm f4.7 with the 150mm f5.6 APO Symmar. The Prontor also features a greater number of aperture leaves, giving a more favourable result. A more important consideration is an accurate shutter speed. Yet another incoherent misconception on your part. It is indeed, sad"

when I posted a picture using a caliper on the printout to show the error he questioned the quality of my picture? most people would have noticed the error in the images and anyone claiming to give instruction and question the work of others would not have even dared such error much less recommend it, defend it and then persist as if a standup punch balloon. the picture will apear at the bottom of this post.

I have spent months years arguing with this person on the subject of cams which he first said nothing would be required, it was a myth/ smoke and mirrors . when it was proven otherwise including when he held mine and admitted to not being able to tell the difference or how it would work so I posted a picture of the 2 cams which have an entirely different profile

http://www.photo.net/bboard/big-image?bboard_upload_id=28480884

again attempt was made to deflect the facts by pointing out to the quality of the image by saying/ asking " where does this guy find the time to take pictures of my shutters? and the answer is my picture looks like it was teken from rthe cassini space probe and is a picture of a printout of his using a caliper to show the differences because the picture he took himself which is obviously different he cant see a damn thing. like I have time and money to spend on taking pictures of cams apertures or anything else because he discredits my research.it is absoulutely sick.

Then I showed a cam with an expected surface needing to be smooth in all cases opposed to the cam he had installed on Aggies camera which was so rough and bumpy that had grinded the tip of the follower mirror. and could never work.

http://www.photo.net/bboard/uploaded-file?bboard_upload_id=28480984

Many here on PN have admitted the parallax correction on the 127mm lens is not true on his or any which do not include his modifications

"michael schmid , feb 06, 2006; 03:53 p.m.

hello,

"recently i built myself a 4x5" camera on the basis of the polaroid 110b(like dean johnes's or l*mtan's)"," when you cnahnge the format of the camera to 4x5 from 3x4 during the conversion, the actual picture on the film is always bigger than the lines in the viewfinder"

Jones denies it so I will obtain all the cameras he sold to the US and verify he is lying and if that is not the case I will surely apologize but I am certain he is lying.

On his latest auction he insisted the Ysarex on his auction did not come with any pancake design when everyone knew it IS a pancake design.

Instead of facing the facts and shutting up he responded

"Dean Jones , feb 27, 2006; 06:57 p.m.

I think he`s gone folks......................"

. seriously it is one contradiction after the other first he says lenses are clearly different to him

"Dean Jones , dec 13, 2004; 03:38 p.m.

I consider the later multicoated lenses are far more forgiving with their apparent greater depth of field at larger apertures. Cheers, Dean."

then Jones at later date when he has no modern lenses in stock says:

"Dean Jones , feb 09, 2006; 03:56 p.m.Despite the later lens being more advanced, I doubt you`ll see any improvement in quality over the original Rodenstock 127mm!"

"Dean Jones , feb 09, 2006; 03:56 p.m.

" Aperture scale will now commence from f5.6 instead of f4.7. The beauty of doing this is that the shutter button will still operate without manufacturing some kind of link from the shutter release button to the Copal`s release arm."

The beauty of using a Polaroid camera which yields the wrong exposure? . aperture does not commence from 5.6 either.

http://www.photo.net/bboard/uploaded-file?bboard_upload_id=28471484

When Mr. Jones first made a conversion it could not shoot Polaroid films so in his auctions and on his site for years he represented"

After much thought and with several attempts, I have perfected the conversion of the early Polaroids to use a film that is still available. These fine cameras, (pictured is a model 110 from the early 50`s) are extremely well made, feature excellent shutters and fine lenses, however suffered from the usual Polaroid type film, that is a pull apart develop before your eyes, expensive and messy film that became unavailable around the early nineties. Such a fine camera is once again in use due to my conversion,"

All are reminded that the name Polaroid associated with these cameras because they made them at a loss in order to support their films

"suffered from the usual Polaroid type film, that is a pull apart develop before your eyes, expensive and messy film that became unavailable around the early nineties. Such a fine camera is once again in use due to my conversion,Dean Jones "

The films used today are still peel apart , before discontinuing the roll film Polaroid assigned the pack film conversion to 4 designs to assure continuity so it is false that films were no longer available and their properties remain unchanged. not to mention that when he claimed to have" perfected" which translated into a spring patio door closer at the end of the camera my product had been in the market for years.

Interestingly enough after Michael Shmid time was wasted for months with bogus assurances and instructions he now realizes that one of his favorite films is gone

what is of value to LF photographers is that people dont waste ther F.time and take away their choices with bogus and false assurances and their choices of products taken away by unscrupulous defamation.

Michael has moved to make a petition to bring the film back

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00Gq88&tag=

Keep businesses out of the forums is of great interest to large format photographers That way they can have a chance at the truth and a little peace and quiet.the others also move to trash the quality of Polaroid films and then blame Polaroid for having to discontinue them.

"Dean Jones , jun 05, 2006; 06:36 p.m.

Perhaps the camera would be better off manufactured in China? At least they don`t attempt to disguise the facts with rhetoric". The only ones disguising the facts as an excuse to promote products are my opponents because my position is first that no business should be here in the first place and second because in the face of huge and ensuing adversity I have moved to clarify the facts and faced further adversity as a result. give me a break!

"All you needed to know " you did not . still dont so please find a little decency and stop polluting the forums and peoples in boxes with your spam and solicitation via defamation and demotion and interfereing with refferences of what is of value based on differentiation because you are not entitled to when it is clear you cant tell the difference..

I made myself available at a huge expense for years to try to confront the tech issues and everything else proved everything that was questioned . What is of value to LF photographers is that people do not wast their time. please stop.

I am sorry but I am gone so please do not address me so I have to respond.

The age of 2200 years was specified by someone else and I quoted that , it is irrelevant, it is old enough .

Mr. Fromm's wish was also addressed to Mr. Jones &Co telling them to shut up but he responds with yet another joke / shows no remorse .

It is impossible to resolve differences when you are assured there are none even after proven.

.

Mr. Fromm wishes for peace and quiet and everyone deserves it.

All best W

I hope that everyone can expect that what Mr Fromm sugests will not be for today , tomorrow but final.

it is difficult to see past the tree and see the forest despite the entaglement which is not easy because hostility is what is being nurtured in liew of the pertinent topics

but hostility cannot be removed from the eqation when someone would have to justify a reason for which they are able to promote products here when everyone else cant

"We did not instigate ANY of this behavior and most will agree it makes for a good laugh once in a while" " Oct 13 2003 he admited otherwise AS it was I who instigated these discussions" This person is in complete denial of his own admissions and admits to retaining the podium as a means of interference to demote my product" makes for a good laugh once in a while" once that occurs he then pulls out the swatches and starts his promotion; promotion by demotion.

Any business in photography could come here saying they have an issue with a competitor and then pull out the swatches. they don't because they cant no matter what the case may be. that applies to these people as well. Helen who appears to be very educated raises the issue perfectly".

On the other hand, it would be a shame to lose the contributions from helpful people because of the ravings of an unhelpful person. " when the fact is it would be shameful to loose an environment free of conflict of interest because a few are willing to rally support and engage in demotion and mockery and interference in exchange for help they value.

This so called help applies to any product in photography or anything else no more than in this case and Mr. Jones has managed to convince everyone that " his just cause " comes before the needs of everyone else so when every other business in the industry abides by the rules he doesn't have to. refrence to peddling would apply to anyone comming here to promote services and is not aimed at any one individual.

people can come here and say I make slide pages, I make tripods , I make foam core etc and it doesn't make a difference what they make if they advertise it in the threads

it is unfair to their competitors even if they have business issues because their issues are no more justification than anyone else's.

Mr. Jones said that in his opinion a patent should be respected at a time he felt he could get something out of it by doing so and come off good, the other one wrote to a client enquiring about my camera that he didn't like to hear that the price of my product was too high as a means to try to show me he was a nice guy and sent me a copy of that email to show me he was fair but when I insisted the next day that I did have patent application pending and did expect prior art submitted he moved to threaten me to stay away from him because he could use the publicity and has been insisting that my camera is garbage ever since.

People proven time and time again to change their opinions based on what they can get out of it cant be allowed to stand between businesses and the public admitting to unfairness as interference in the event they feel unfairly treated and allege unfair business practices.

How could blinding good people into taunting rallies where educated people valuing the truth are willing to support one side no matter what the case may be ?

The confusion doesn't stem from gibberish mentioning the use of a triangle as a means of evaluation , reference which was only made in the face of the interference as a means to expose that assurances of equality, lack of difference and findings or determinations were just another way to express the taunting.

When someone has huge admitted reservations challenging the standing granted to products and the accomplishments of the most talented and openly dismisses them as to demote them and does the same with the opinions of those who specialize in the evaluation of products and then proceeds to gradually alienate the standing of a competitor from the public with assurances of findings and determinations he has demoted the competition and promoted himself so these findings must be challenged.

When you challenge these findings you learn that lens aperture error considered as such is presented as not being a problem in a product such as Polaroid which to most is used for exposure evaluation.

When you challenge the determinations of parallax error you are assured there is none and several members of PN have already assured otherwise.

When you read that people claiming their job description ( not their hobby)would mean they would have to be knowledgeable on the subject of the performance of lenses and their differentiation you then read recently this person assured that you would not notice a difference between the performance of one over the other yet years ago he stated"dec 13, 2004 the 127mm Rodenstock exhibit a very shallow depth of field when shooting anywhere near wide open which gives poor results unless focus is bang on.I consider the later multicoated lenses with their apparent greater depth of field "

It is this ensuing contradiction based on what is in stock that confuses the issues coupled with the rage instilled onto others who then proceed with their own editions of taunting expecting that I should be Einstein before I can sell a camera because I do and omitting that suggested alternatives have issues which I may not confront but

I made Tons of cameras Like Diwans and abandoned their use due to front standard fluctuation regarding its parallel to the film plane variance at different focal lengths depending on the variance between the length of the arms of the scissor type focusing system coupled with the fact that the front standard being parallel to the film plane depends on a spring loaded tension and the variance which may exist when focusing can easily create an error in excess of the difference between the best lens and an average one coupled with the cam issue and the parallax not being able to be modified for different focal lengths and the issue of fixed infinity.

While someone may justify it somehow for personal use if made by himself that is miles away from taking that which is totally inefficient in every regard and use that as a means to impede and interfere with the introduction of a commercial product alleging gibberish regarding triangulation while in fact I do not sell triangulation , but I use it and while it may not be required to fiddle I was able to show that those who admit they hope to impede all my sales and or tell people not to buy my product do so as retaliation.

Mr. Jones keeps making assurances to users responding to questions that the cam using the 135mm lens works better than with the original lens, that would mean that you would just put the lens, do nothing and you are done. this is not the case. Mr. Jones receives a camera for repair from a client of mine who is from his country at such time Jones was keeping me busy with assurances that products were identical except for cosmetics and years earlier when I made the camera I was being diverted to respond to his assurances that no differences existed but when he received it he was puzzled as to why the right cam would work and Diwan joined in the taunting.

In the end it is proven that none of this is obvious yes assured to be so dismissed as such by using demotion and defamation and telling me that the confusion would stem from the fact that I use triangulation to make determinations is a joke because the guy says he is holding my product with the right configuration and cant SEE why or how it could work and Divan said the same thing , therefore claims of obviousness are bogus and that was years after patent issue. On the other hand those who claim experience and professionalism and that I am an amateur have stood by not challenging these situations because they did not know either if you are willing to go around braking windows on their behalf or support their cause all is well no matter what the case may be and that is the long and the short of it when it comes to tech issues.

You will find people who have insisted earlier they sold their products because they proffered to use a 100.00 speed graphic because with the conversion you would have needed 3 hands to operate it, then rally the support and go to any effort to succeed while having had expressed reservations about convenience . the result of these instigations yields a few willing to go thru any effort to succeed in order to invalidate the convenience of achieving results effortlessly and on a consistent basis.

And in any event The fact remains that someone benefiting financially from all this is allowed to confuse the market to his benefit is unfair to the buyers.

All of the demotion of the value of the opinions of the most proficient is bogus based on the fact that such person has been proven unable to make veritable determinations , shown unable to differentiate what he claims is obvious , that any child could see but he has it in front of him posts pictures showing the error and says there is none. if taunting works as a marketing strategy for the guy and a few get something fin return for taunting as well that justifies nothing is the utmost unfairness and being that such denial exists that everyone justifies it when it is being done live right here in front of everyone coupled with the ensuing lies and denials of what they have written or said then rest assured that these connivances are the reason I had to move to expose them and they will persist in denying it for all eternity because the fact is they are here to sell and as admitted they are here to sell thru use of discredit against me.

It is a given that when the threads are allowed to be used for solicitation it is misleading and false. recently when someone asked what would be the alternatives for 4x5 hand held use Mr. Jones popped up with his pitch as usual and then Paul Droluck did the same with the Fotman and I believed the question may have been what was an alternative to the Littman but it doesn't matter , what does is that when the Fotman was offered as an alternative Mr. Jones got cocky and replied" hey Paul where is the rangefinder because when you focus up close focus is critical etc etc which is true yet when I said that as a reason for the differentiation when I was confronting Jones years earlier he told me it was a myth.

I made an adapter for the graflex xl which I also found inefficient and did not produce but It is mentioned because It was tested years ago without the use of the rf and using the best lenses which is the way you would use a Footman and while The Fotoman looks newer

the function is identical to the camera I post which by now is but a dusty prototype and it was proven that unless you shot landscape or used apertures of f 16 or smaller the camera could not yield comparable results to ground glass work with the same lens at medium or close distance and even at F 16 the ground glass images were superior. expecting f 16 and a shutter speed for hand held use using natural light is rare .

At another time Mr. Droluck said That the Fotoman worked much in the same manner as the Linhoff technica? how on earth would that be possible it has no movements

and then one time Mr droluck asked me if I was on drugs and I wanted to r ask him if he was asking to offer me some of what he was smoking when he considered the Fotoman to work much like the Linhof.........less than 1000.00 would probably match the price tag of an older Linhof with a few lenses or any view camera with at least front movements for no more

Why isn't every other camera manufacturer that meets the question jumping in to plug? It creates unfairness and is misleading because it presents a false image of someone willing to be accessible and come to the mountain which is unfair to the rest . and "some" will go to great lengths to convince you that they are being accessible by doing so while the other guy is difficult and mean and ugly ogre who will eat you alive when the fact is the guy is a dedicated person finding

and no rangefinder and this is reminded to show the duality which is created when Jones dismisses technical differentiation with me because it doesn't further his cause but brings it up with an attitude when confronting Mr. Droluck because he comes of good.

Ladies and gentlemen conflict of interest is at the heart of the creative process, creativity is a struggle between interests one has and the willingness to select one over the other depends on how honest you are willing to be to yourself as opposed to being affected by the opinions of others and considering them and including them.

Whatever issues exist between these people and Myself is no excuse for them to resort to solicitation or solicitation disguised as help because it doesn't help anyone and the few who feel it does and don't mind are reminded it is not up to them, this can not be based on the popularity of the decision when such arrangement is upheld by the fear it will be perceived as unpopular.

It is not my website I am not the boss but I say that it doesn't matter whether someone may have a valid point on a given issue because nobody could debate the same would apply to any business.

I feel there is nothing that justifies businesses bringing their grievances as if they were not businesses because that has been used as solicitation and there is nothing that justifies help as an excuse to solicitation because it has been proven people will help themselves to what they are not entitled to

There is no secrecy that I intend to uphold my patents and how these people feel about that but their original presentation of their so called grievance was proven misleading and malicious and defamatory and not justified because instead of working to submit evidence as required they engaged in connivances to then make me appear as the saboteur and lied and still do. they are selling something and their grievances did not belong in the forums because as Jones threatened me that he would do so and leave it up to the public is in itself solicitation and as soon as he discredited me he told you all that the value of my words was words only and he set up shop.

The other one did the same threatened me that he could use the publicity and while no resolution was reached on any issue he proceeded to discuss sales and how to interfere with my business. all of it was solicitation and I consider it to be extortion and blackmail and unfair business practice which has remained unchanged.

My mistake was to loose site of the fact that the original question was solicitation itself because it was made by business for business purposes , the strategy has not changed and it wont and I say that someone unwilling to expose the truths about his own product and disguise them even after they have been determined otherwise and at all cost has a lot of nerve assuming the role of exposing my product as... Now from china? all of these threads are nothing but hipocrecy, I doubt that can be considered as help.

IF Mr Jones has set these threads as an admitted means of leverage it would be unreasonable to expect hostilities to cease because the threads are intended to further them

It is unfair to the rest of the members to ask them yet again to take sides once more by asking them to decide whether this type of situation should persist and clearly those who resort to them have no reservation as to engage in them and will feel deprived unfairly when the truth is they ambushed a podium which is questinable and the website may find itself at odds due to allegiances on a situation which was allowed for too long. the self regulation propsed by Jones didnt work and I dont make decisions arround here.

I hope all photo forums in this website and others will be entirelly free from buisness and conflict of interest. this is a great website with most members focusing on creativity and creative issues and great pictures

I announced that i would abstain from posting in the threads and have done so . I appologize for my part even though I didnt start the thread It has always been my inetntion to keep solicitation out of PN and I hope the others can do the same on an unconditional manner

thanks.

Mr. Fromm is correct this is shameful and I am partly to blame as having no choice but to defend my product from accusations of gibberish instigated here.

When there is conflict of interest the truth is hindered by the contributions of those who benefit from them.

Someone would get offended if they are called as a store clerk when they are the manager showing they value hierarchy yet that someone would also reffer to someone considered as an accomplished photographer and having a product in high regard and have issues regarding that hierarchy due to hang- ups or whatever it may be as to have used words as " apparently well known and respected" to introduce his instigation against me and it gets too complicated partisan and unhealthy and hypocrisy.

Attributing fault on any given issue does not help the conflict of interest issue regardless.

Whatever help can be obtained in exchange for support and rallies can be compared to votes in exchange for cash and what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

When my clients preffered my product they were labeled as bribed minions assuring that nobody could prefer it otherwise and when someone considers that getting answers at a click of a mouse by those allowed to solicit invites this type of hierarchy

situation.

Answering Mr. Bhatal's question because if not Ill never get any sleep

Quadrangulation is the use of triangulation plus an additional angle as a means to alter one of the three variables in the main triangle in such way as to improve performance after the cam expected performance cannot be improved further.

A cam is like a prescription for glasses or a key to a lock only one is the best but even at that once that is achieved there is an improvement that can be obtained by the altering of the angles so that while the cam retains the properties interpreting the performance of the actual lens design the angles can be used to improve the performance of the beam in relationship to the cam in question.

Your mention that a fixed cam pre stamped and invariable for the wrong focal length would be better because it doesn't slip would be like saying that you would rather have a brass key for the wrong lock than one made out of aluminum with the right combination because the second one would brake true so I solved the slippage issue.

In the future when I am allowed to explain the quadrangulation better I will do so on my site. I don't think this is a question of who may be at fault which will be resolved somewhere else otherwise on top of everything it turns into a buy one because this other guy isguy is a ...that or the other.

What is a joke is that you would suppress the opinions of those who have credentials and accomplishments including the reviews, impede the chance of one of your clients in journalism and dare say it would be you who would be writing the article on the subject. Hierarchy is accepted throughout and you seem to resent it while expect it in your case but I just don't care what the case may be call anything whatever you like and do whatever you like I have paid attention to your opinions and considered them and after you told me"

oct 13, 2003; 06:05 a.m As it was I who instigated this discussion, I feel that I should have a word in closure

It is my opinion that a legal Patent should be respected. It also serves as a means of clarification in regard to what can and can`t be offered as an alternative to the modification of the Polaroid camera.The input provided by William Littman in this matter must be considered as words only. such posting has an active role in self regulation.

You have no regard for the value of the opinions of the most accomplished, my clients or mine so considering that and that you do not honor what you wrote was your own opinion then all I expect is that this site will not allow the solicitation. the rest will be dealt with in court.

Thank you