bens

Louis, David, I made suggestions to the site about encouraging more comments and critiques for a very long time, perhaps a year. I reached the conclusion that the site's management really does not have an interest in doing so. And some point, Brian all but said that in a thread last Spring, causing me to stop my efforts.

 

I don't have the answers, but as a result of my experience I've realized the best I can do -- the only thing I can do -- is whatever I can do myself and with other participants without calling for the site to change things. I encourage you not to get frustrated if there's no site response here, but to take your ideas and implement them yourselves in whatever creative ways you can think of.

 

If you notice, Brian almost never participates in threads like this, but jumps in on some discussions about ratings. Perhaps he's a true believer in ratings, or perhaps he needs to be concerned with driving up the number of page views for the site to make it, and thinks spending time on encouraging comments won't do that. Not sure, but in any event, it strikes me that we are pretty much on our own.

btw, louis, if you felt personally attacked -- and my intent was to criticize your approach, but not attack you -- I sincerely apologize. Your critique of Five without offering anything yourself grated admittedly.

 

I really don't understand your approach in this thread, and hope you can understand this point of view, which has been expressed by others above. I humbly suggest it is better to make a suggestion and invite responses, then play a sort of teasing game of asking a question in some form of a challenge, criticizing responses, and offering nothing of your own.

 

I've always enjoyed encountering your work and thoughts, and hope we can dialogue more up ahead.

btw, i'm glad to add anyone else who leaves a note here for me or at the Five page (link in a note of mine above). 90 people and counting . . . there's always room for more.

 

louis, i'd be delighted if you considered giving it a try too.

Great Jayme, I'm on it!

Louis, Five is a place to build. If you think there are ways to improve it, suggest it. Thank you for your suggestion that it is "commendable", but as for your comment that it is not sufficnet for your taste because it has an "undirected strategy" --

that's a part of the problem around here -- everyone is looooooooooong on complaints and critiques, and short on doing anything about it.

 

BTW, if you think there are hidden treasures here, nothing prevents you from posting links to them on your community member page, or encouraging others to do so. Its something I do periodically.

 

I'm sure there are other ideas. Time to suggest something Louis, otherwise, I find the tone you are setting here tiresome.

Thanks Jayme, great ideas above.

 

As for Five, I appreciate your sentiment, but you are more than welcome to add your name to the list nonetheless. We each construe a "visit" as we see fit, and it operates entirely on the honor system. You have no one to answer to but yourself.

 

To let others in on what we are talking about, Five consists are those Pnetters (about 90 since we started about 3 weeks ago) who have committed to leaving five comments on others' photos (anyone but their own) every time they visit Pnet. The Five page linked above is a discussion page where you can find the list of others who care about giving and receiving critiques.

 

Jayme, you need not give up any independence, give it a try, I'm glad to not only add your name, but remove it if you would like later. I've always found your contributions invaluable (btw I've tried to steal just about every photograph techique you have displayed, with mixed success), and you are more than welcome.

<a href=http://www.photo.net/photo/4062848>Five</a>.

<br><br>

Tous sont bienvenus.

Charly, its not a voting system, its a rating system, valuable for the site's purposes to sort out the photos, and of less value as feedback to those of us posting pictures. whatever numbers scheme anyone can come up with, it will always have a bias, an arbitrariness, a limitation of some kind.

 

If you are looking to view photographs that appeal to you, there are many trp categories and filters, and numerous subject categories to browse. you also can check out the favorite photos of anyone whose taste you like.

 

If you are looking for more meaning feedback on your own photos, well, ya gotta leave meaningful critiques to get them around here. at least that's what I have found works.

 

 

Good luck. Hope you don't go too far down the path of getting hung up on the ratings -- it leads to a dead end.

Lucy, I agree with you and often post things I am not sure about or which are intended as experiments. But if someone is just starting out here, which I was presuming when I wrote the above, it helps to post your best for awhile if you are looking for people to develop relationships with who don't know your work. I also think if you know something really doesn't work, admit it rather than post it, you'll be disappointed by the responses anyway. But that doesn't mean you only post images that you know work very well. I've been both surprised and disappointed by reactions to work that was a question mark for me, but often learned a lot in both events. And to be honest, I post such things all the time.

Thanks Brian for clarifying.

 

Indeed, there are no guarantees, there may not always be a photo.net either. But surely, surely, we can have fun while there is.

 

Whatever my own sentiments about it for me, I will always think of the ecard idea fondly because its genesis was in your sending a Valentine to your daughter. Perhaps you can name the card after her as the muse on this one; regardless, may we all be worthy of our childrens' love.

 

Take care, thanks very much for dialoguing on this. I'm done, and the queen of spain is coming for dinner.

Brian, with the considerable respect I have for you, I think you set up a "straw man" argument in your last message. I don't see where anyone tried to veto changes you deem need to happen. You came up with a new idea, you asked for feedback when you did it, which was very much appreciated, people gave it in good faith and more (as usual of course), and you took from it what you thought made sense.

 

My point is, the product may well have improved as a result of this unique, sometimes messy, interactive process (don't ya wish Microsoft worked like this?), and the process showed that this strange beast called the "feedback forum" can work. Seems like a succesful thread to me. Thanks again.

You know Jayme, I've tried to be as precise as I can and you and some others don't seem to get it. I am not concerned about posting on the internet and take the precautions I need to. I am concerned that images of people I know and care about, and which I post here, will become the butt of jokes or worse through the ecard procedure, and that possibly, even though the possibility is remote, that their feelings could be hurt. No release can take care of that. I'm not worried about protecting ME, I'm worried about protecting THEM.

 

Its one thing for someone to lift the image from pnet without my permission, its quite another for pnet to make the procedure available so that someone can send a link to a photo, say of my own son, with a demeaning message, and with my name on it, implying my sponsorship, or at least permission, in such a procedure.

 

If that doesn't concern you, well, I suggest you think about it a little more.

 

Perhaps I just have my panties in a wad, as I've had an experience, as I describe above, with someone leaving an inappropriate comment on a photo of Jewish friend of mine. But as long as I can limit the possibility of misuse of my photos -- again, LIMIT that possibility --I will do what I can, knowing the risk of posting in a public site, albeit one that advertises itself as "a photography learning community" of "photography enthusiasts."

 

As I have already stated, Brian's opt out works for me. To be blunt, you are beating a dead horse.

Brian, in thinking more about your summary, I assume you understand that you are representing to ends of a continuum, and that there are many people somewhere inbetween. For example, I do enjoy the learning community, obviously [or duh! as my daugher might say] but would not like ratings and comments limited to subscribers, and enjoy and recognize that I am "publishing on the Internet." But regardless of the wide distribution given to what I post, I value it most for the feedback I get, not for the sake of distributing it. I'm sure others can give you many different permutations on your descriptions as well.

 

I raise the issue because I think its not an either/or, that uses of the site are quite varied and complicated, and that the diversity makes the place stronger. I support the big tent -- including those who come to look at photos because they like pictures, even for ecards -- their appreciation, and feedback possibly, of works here ca be valuable as well.

 

I urge you to consider, to the extent you market this ecard idea, that you do so with a special attention to preserving the public perception of this as a place for serious photographers and those who appreciate serious photography. Its essential to retain quality photographers' participation I think (though we can all take this stuff too seriously, I think). Marketing the ecard option with that in mind might help to keep the cheese potential to at least the low-fat variety.

Thanks Brian, appreciate your summary, its a fair one. I might add, as I've learned sorting out my feelings in this discussion, that you can be in either camp depending on the photograph -- I've been wondering how to get wider distribution of the flower photos I've done for example and like this feature for them, as well as the chance to help the site attract more viewers with that work. Thanks again.

Thank you, Brian, simple, works beautifully, appreciate the ability to easily keep some in the ecard pool, while cabining off those I'm uncomfortable with making available. This thread reminds me of sausages -- the end product tastes great, but stay out of the kitchen!

. . . meant to say, things slow down in the middle of the night.

Lucy, having posted for years here, I don't think one time is significantly better than another for receiving critiques, except perhaps in the middle of the night.

 

But as for the larger question of how to get more critiques on your work, well, that's been extensively discussed, including recently. I hope you don't mind my pasting in here something I posted in another thread yesterday -- if you wait for critiques, they won't come very much, you have to give to receive. Here's the paste --

 

Ways to Developing Commenting Relationships with Others

 

1. Comment on Photos of Those Most Likely to Respond:

-- Check community member pages to see who comments on other people's works a lot. Follow of the trails of where they go, they often lead to others who comment a lot.

 

-- Look at the Top Photos/Comments pages -- those who receive a lot of comments often give them, and attact comments from others who do the same.

 

-- Comment on the categories of photos where you post your own -- mutual interest can attact visitors to your own works.

 

2. Engage in Dialogues

 

-- respond as much as possible to people who comment on your photos by thanking them, addressing their questions

 

-- RETURN THE FAVOR! Comment on one of their pictures.

 

-- Discuss your photo -- tell the background, provide technical details, explain what you are looking for by way of critiques

 

-- Use the Follow Up feature in My Workspace to follow up on comments that respond to your own on other people's pictures

 

3. Watch What You Say and Do

 

-- Be constructive, say what you like as well as what you think should be improved in a photo

 

-- Invite all critiques, good and bad, thank everyone no matter what the substance of their critique

 

-- Try not to to attack, even when you feel attacked

 

-- Post your best pics, think twice about posting something you really don't like

 

4. Make the Commitment

 

-- it takes months to develop consistent relationships, so have patience -- be generous, appeal to the best in people, leave comments on as many as you can, it all adds up, and what goes around does come around.

 

5. Let People Know What You are About

 

-- Advertise your interest in serious critiques on your community member page

 

-- Participate in "Five" -- link to it on my community member page

 

This is basically a voluntary, self-help enterprise for posters. You must give in order to receive. You have access to photographers around the globe. What you make of it is largely up to you.

Thank you Brian, VERY much appreciated. Your responsiveness and understanding encourages me to help the site succeed as much as ever (for better or worse perhaps!).

Excerpts from "About Us" --

 

"From its inception, the site has aimed to be a "photography learning community", in which more experienced photographers, both avid amateurs and professional, provide mutual support, as well as being a resource for those interested in learning about photography. Since the site has been in existence since 1995, it is common to find contributors on the site who are now experts but who first visited the site years ago to ask beginner questions."

 

"The audience consists of photography enthusiasts and would-be enthusiasts, but with a significant number of semi-professionals and professionals. In recent years, with the growth in digital photography, there has been a substantial increase in novices visiting the site to use it as a learning resource. The audience is predominantly (80%) male. Although the audience is drawn from the entire world, especially contributors in the Gallery section, it is is predominantly American."

Example, Brian -- a few years ago, I had what I considered to be an anti-Semitic message left on one of my photographs, a portrait of someone who was obviously Jewish. I can't remember what happened, I either removed the photo, or sent a message to abuse@photo.net and it was taken care of. But now, that photo can be put on an ecard and distributed without my knowledge (and with my name on it, I might add) with the same anti-Semetic message. I can't allow that possiblity, even if small, even if it can be done now by right-clicking. Can you see this?

Brian, its one thing to post an image publicly, it another to have an ecard of a photo of one of my subjects sent with a message like "Happy Birthday, you are as dorky as the person in this photo!" That is the difference -- the photo becomes a plug-in to someone else's end product, not an end of itself, it turns the photo into product to be manipulated rather than an end in itself, and one which can be misused without my knowledge. Is that really so hard to appreciate?

. . . I have relationships with many of the people I photograph, and they understand my postings here. If the ecard feature remained open ended, I would feel compelled not only to post less for fear their images would be used inappropriately as I've explained, but I'd also have to consider deleting some photographs already posted (such as of some of the children in my portfolio) because I do not feel it appropriate for these images to be "product" for ecards. Its not what I discussed with the parents, and its not what I think they or I want. So its quite tricky. An opt out would have to include an opt out for what's already been posted for me to avoid doing this, which I very much do not want to do.

I should add, the ecard feature without control also complicates and possibly makes difficult what I tell subjects that I photograph. Its been easy to explain posting here up to now -- for example, I sometimes tell people posting on the site helps me improve and evaluate the image with feedback from other photographers, and it does.

 

But to suggest to subjects that their image might also be used as an ecard by strangers for unknown purposes, well, that's really quite different, and for some it could be disturbing. It feels uncomfortable to me to even bring up, which means I may well post less portraits without some control.

 

In the end, much of certain genres that I do are ultimately for delivery elsewhere than here -- this is more my learning lab. I don't need ecard distribution by others for some of my work that I can't control.

 

So, for me, pics of flowers may be one thing, but portraits, which I do a fair amount of, are altogether different. I don't think I could forgive myself if a portrait I posted was used by someone to make an unflattering joke, for example.

Brian, let me try to explain my own sentiment. I post here mostly to learn how other photographers view my photos, not primarily as an avenue for the distribution of my photos to "lay people" (for lack of a better term). It may sound silly to you in light of the public nature of the site, but that's about it for me.

 

I agree that if an open-ended ecard feature became popular, it has the potential to change a "photographer's community" into something different and less enjoyable -- our works become "product" for others to choose from, rather than "art" to discuss.

 

Regardless, as a poster, I have so faor been able to control the title of the image and the explanation of it. If someone writes something about it under the image that I don't care for, I can write photo.net's abuse address or delete the image. I lose that control with blind ecard distribution. I kind of cringe at the thought of someone sending my photo to someone with a message that potentially provides a "spin" on the photo that I don't appreciate or uses it for a joke or what not.

 

For what it's worth, an opt-out feature would be fine for me, including if it were not the default, but had to be affirmatively chosen.

Since each of us naturally wants to control use of our own images, why not limit ecards so that we can each only send ecards of our own images?

 

I did not understand before looking at Guy's portfolio after reading his message above that it appears that I could also send an ecard of GUY's image. I don't think that's a good idea at all, too fraught with the possibilities of misunderstandings and misuse. am I understanding correctly its open nature presently?

 

Brian, don't you think some limitations are advisable so we can better control use of our own images by other users of the site?