vania_plemiannikov

Hopefully you've got this sorted out, but if not, one thing you could try is stand development. If you still have the problem, it's not an agitation issue.

Interesting, I always thought stand development was one of the worst cause of streaking and other sort of development artifacts... I could try that.

I really thought changing developer was the key but no. It's not solved yet although it's acceptable as long as there is no wide empty space like sky or snow. I don't see the issue on portrait or studio work but landscape is another story. Slightly better with Jobo constant hand agitation on roller base. Next test will be to add some wetting agent either to the developer or the pre-wet.

For futur reference to those who might find it interesting, here is a copy of an email to Ilford which sums up all my testing. In the end I just cannot develop with HC110/Ilfotech HC anymore :

I also wanted to let you know the result of my extensive testing. To cut to the point I managed to isolated the cause and I am about 99% sure the steaks are caused by the developer as testing with ID11 are streak free. But of course things are a little more complicated.

The developers that cause this are HC110 and Ilfotec HC. I have tried 2 bottles of Kodak one and 1 bottle of Ilford and all gave the same streaks, rolls after rolls, with more or less intensity depending on the agitation pattern. Usually the more agitation with just enough developer to cover the reel(s) the less streaking. A 1 minute initial agitation have a strong positive impact. Pre-wetting might provide some improvement but it did not have a clearly noticeable effect. I have not tried another type of liquid developer yet.

I have tried every possible agitation method except continuous and always get some form of streaks. I have used many different tanks and reels as well (Paterson and metal with hewes reels).

The puzzling thing is that I gave 2 rolls to a lab that uses HC110 1+47 and they came out normal.

I do mix my developer well, at 20°C and usually do a large batch at 1+31 because it last for so long. I have tried different dilutions as well with no effect.

My stop bath is a Tetenal acetic acid diluted to 2%. I am thinking about using just water to see if it makes a difference…

Fixer is Hypam 1+4.

I hope maybe you can make some sense out of this. Please let me know if you do !

Vania, are you still using that cr*ppy plastic Paterson tank?

There was a weird issue came to light (sorry for pun) several years ago, where the dye used in making some plastic developing tanks wasn't perfectly opaque, and allowed some deep red and IR to penetrate to the film; causing random fogging patterns.

A very long shot, but a possibility.

 

In any case, a change to a stainless tank and reel definitely wouldn't hurt.

Using stainless steel too. I have different tanks with hewes reels. There's no difference with the paterson regarding the current problem...

Ask a friend to dev your film in their tanks, using their chemicals, while you watch.

I sort of did that already. Gave some films to develop to a pro lab that came out with no issue. They are from the same trip than the ones that showed the problem initially. They all have streaks except for the one develop in the pro lab with the same developer as me (HC110). And the guy was kind enough to take the time to show me how he processes his films. His inversion rotation-method was the same as mine. I did not see him actually develop the films though and that might be difficult to obtain... As for friends I don't have any proficient in theses matters.

I have no idea where this daft figure-of-eight affectation has come from - although I suspect it's from ill-informed Newby YouTubers.

Never used such a technique in over 50 years of streak-free developing, and see absolutely no purpose in it. It wasn't even a 'thing' on anyone's radar until a few years ago.

 

Let me repeat... for the Nth time. IT'S THE AIRSPACE BUBBLING THROUGH THE TANK DURING INVERSION THAT DOES THE WORK OF AGITATION.

Not some esoteric Yogic wrist exercise!

 

Just turn the tank swiftly upside down; recite to yourself the phrase "bubble bubble" (or count to two, it's optional) then right the tank again swiftly and tap the tank on the bench. Do that a couple of times every agitation cycle. No need for wrist calisthenics.

 

And BTW, a pre soak is unnecessary and might well be contributing to the streaking.

 

Developed over 50 years ago using the simple non figure of 8 method described above.

[ATTACH=full]1425088[/ATTACH]

I like the portrait a lot :-)

Thanks for hanging in there and your concern! I have adopted your method and thought it got rid of the problem but the streaks came back with a vengeance. It is incomprehensible I have tried changing all variables but still get them.

Vania, I feel for you. I had the same problem on 35mm years ago and tried everything to sort it which took about 6 months. I used to use Patterson type tanks with the twizzle stick, constant agitation for first 30 secs, then 10 secs every minute. This method had worked well for me for many years then just stopped working and produced exactly what you have. I eventually determined it was the chemicals spinning round faster/slower at some points than others. I now use stainless tanks and reels and while I almost always use medium format now, the odd roll of 35mm goes through the same process which is; No pre soak. Ilford ID 11 1+1 for around 10 minutes. Pour in tank, agitate gently BUT IN A FIGURE 8 MOTION for 10 secs, couple reasonably sharps taps on bench, then 10 secs every minute IN A DEFINATE FIG 8 MOTION. The tank probably gets 4 revolutions in the 10 secs. Pour dev out, pour stop in, rotate once or twice, pour stop out, pour fix in, invert/rotate same as dev for 3-4 mins, pour fix out, wash in tank at same temp as other chemicals for 10 ish mins. Put 4ml of wetting agent in tank, take film off reel and holding one end in each hand, pass length of film through water/wetting agent bath, hang on clip (the type with 2 pins in) until dry. No steaks. For 5x4 I use Jobo drum on the wheel type processor but also rock left right to ensure the chems move all round not just in one direction.

Thanks a lot for the detailed description! I use roughly the same method except I invert while rotating as described in Adams book. I will look out this figure 8 motion as I am not sure how this works. I thought I solved the issue by using minimal amount of chemistry to just cover the reels and 1 minute initial agitation but it's back again. I have seen a couple of very experience printers running top darkrooms here in Paris and none of them can figure out what's wrong. It's quite despairing...

These are similar across each neg, which suggests it is the exposure, not the processing causing these streaks. Look carefully at lens. Yes, and why the handprint so small on the negative? Were you shooting through a glass pane? ... which could cause a change of exposure like these. Try a polarizer and see if it is magnified or lessened after processing.

Does it with different camera/lenses...

That's good for cocktail shaking, not good for film agitation!

 

And I'm pretty sure that Kodak have never recommended such a technique.

 

Slooow down. You need to give the air space in the tank time to bubble past the film - that's what acts to mix stale developer, clinging to the film, with fresh.

 

One inversion in 5 seconds is sufficient. Two inversions taking 8 to 10 seconds at 30 or 60 second intervals is pretty standard.

But don't do the inversions in slo-mo. Quickly invert the tank, hold it upside down for a slow count of two, or until you feel the air-bubbling cease, and then quickly right the tank again.

 

Over-filling the tank so that there's no airspace is also a bad thing, and impedes agitation. Use the recommended amount of solution and no more.

So after more testing your inversion method works great with Paterson tanks. With a 3 minutes presoak and 1 minute initial agitation. Then 1 sharp inversion/rotation and back in 5s every 30s. Very even development, no streaks !

Does not seem to work so well with metal tanks though where 3-4 inversions/rotations per 5s seem to provide more even development.

Do you use both type of tanks ? With the same agitation pattern ?

Thanks

That's good for cocktail shaking, not good for film agitation!

 

And I'm pretty sure that Kodak have never recommended such a technique.

 

Slooow down. You need to give the air space in the tank time to bubble past the film - that's what acts to mix stale developer, clinging to the film, with fresh.

 

One inversion in 5 seconds is sufficient. Two inversions taking 8 to 10 seconds at 30 or 60 second intervals is pretty standard.

But don't do the inversions in slo-mo. Quickly invert the tank, hold it upside down for a slow count of two, or until you feel the air-bubbling cease, and then quickly right the tank again.

 

Over-filling the tank so that there's no airspace is also a bad thing, and impedes agitation. Use the recommended amount of solution and no more.

Thanks for sharing ! This is interesting to me. Less agitation is basically what ilford recommended when I contacted them but in practice I have to say that this only made things worse for me. But I started inverting slo-mo as you say. So far the only 2 changes that gave the most satisfying result (although not perfect) comes with more agitation.

First one is agitating for the full 1st minute. This is now a necessity or else I get streaks 100% of the time.

The second one is using only enough chemistry to cover the reels. 400ml in metal tank. This gives much more even development. Paterson would be the recommended 500ml but I can't get streak free development with those Paterson tanks anymore. My guess is that I can't produce enough agitation but maybe the slo-mo or too many inversions are to blame next test I'll try it your way.

Up to now the most satisfying results have come with 4 inversions with a rotation twist in 5s every 30s. If I do less or at a slower pace or just invert without rotation some form of streaking appears. Perhaps this is mostly visible because I shoot a grey card for my tests but still, it's there. In any case it's way much better but still not perfect.

I am curious, what is your initial agitation method ? What type of tank/reels do you use ? What developer(s) do you use and what is your typical development time ?

Thanks!

Pan F+ is well known for poor latent image keeping.

 

The edge marking disappears after some years.

 

I suppose that should also mean less age fogging, though I don't know of any tests for that.

 

There are a lot of films that can keep the latent image for decades, so I am not quite

sure why that is.

 

For HC-110, my usual is dilution B. (But for TP2415 it is dilution F.)

 

But most of my shots are not so uniform, as to make such stripes easy to see.

But then again, most are 35mm, so maybe it is different.

 

Just wondering, how do you store films after shooting an before developing?

Something like a rubber band on the roll might leave an impression that shows

up under certain development conditions.

Funny somebody asked me about the rubber band already so it must be a common thing but I never heard of it before or felt I needed it... my films are quite tightly sealed. And I would need to cary buckets of them around ;-)

Someone posted this link on another forum :

Having issues: defeat streaky development in 2017 — ERIK GOULD PROJECTS

This tends to confirms the origin of the streaks as being link to chemical reaction when introducing the developer and/or during the first seconds. As stated already I have tried both type of tanks Paterson and steel tank with and without pre-soak, pouring the developer in the tank (including the Paterson type) and dropping the reels in the developer in the dark, as well as with or without the Paterson twizzle stick (worst results by far!) But none of these had any effect. So the defect is happening anyhow, unless I agitated for the first minute. This maybe due to the active nature of HC110 as dilution B and I definitely should try a higher dilution as suggested before.

I sort of conclude that there is nothing wrong and that I just have to agitate for the first minute with this developer now. I am just very surprised that it is happening now after more than 10 years of use... This does match the recommendation of "Way beyond monochrome" and Steve Anchell's 'Darkroom cookbook" :

« Agitation is an integral part of film development. It prevents chemical defects from occurring, builds contrast in the negative, and has a direct effect on image sharpness. The first benefit, preventing chemical defects, is accomplished within the first minute of development. This is because there are certain irreversible chemical defects that can begin within that time. If allowed to begin, they become worse during the course of development. The solution is continuous agitation for the first 50 to 60 seconds. »

Thanks all for the suggestions!

Shoot a roll and send it to me, just a test roll, and let me see if the problem persists. If it does that will narrow the possibilities.

 

Rick H

It's very kind of you but I gave some films to a lab with no issue already.

How is the film hung up? Might there be some corrosion product from metal clips that has run down with the water and acted as an intensifier? I should say (before anyone else does) that I think this is a daft and improbable suggestion, but the obvious answers seem to have been shot down already.

I let a film dried horizontally, same issue so it's not that nor any kind of drying marks. The only thing that seems to work so far is an initial 1 minute agitation instead of 30s. It's almost gone but still slightly perceptible.It also tells that this is happening in the early stage of development. It's not the pouring either since I just dipped the film in a filled tank with the same issue.

In the top frame of the negatives shown in post #2, how did that hand print get there?

 

On the right side of the frame there is an obvious ghost image of four fingers and part of a palm. If they are not yours...

I can't really see it there might be some reflections though. The only trouble is the streaks.

Thank you all for taking the time to consider my problem and reply. Unfortunately I have not made the slightest progress and just keep wasting hundreds of euros worth of film to the trash…

What I have learned so for :

1. It’s not a drying issue as I have hanged the film to dry horizontally. I have also tried with/without wetting agent. Although I must say that the streak seems to follow the path of liquid runing along the film, it's unrelated. Also when inside the tank the streaks are parallel to the ground.

2. It’s not a light leak as I have tried 3 different cameras of different brand and all can show the same problem on some frames at least. I also used 3 different tanks at least and metal as well as plastic reels.

2.5. The streaks are mostly apparent on zones V-VIII, can be perceived in zones III-IV, can't be seen in zones I-II.

3. I contacted Ilford and they have been very reactive but say that to their knowledge it is not an issue that could be consistent with film defect.

4. I have tried different agitation method and although I think this might be where at least part of the problem lies, no change in agitation pattern, frequency and intensity changes anything except using a tank with one empty reel to generate more agitation. But I had mixed result with this method. I tried a 3 reels Paterson tank with 2 films only, 1 film (trix) was fine the other one (HP5) had slight streaks but much weaker as one the images provided as an exemple.

5. Ilford films seem much more affect by this than an old batch of trix I still have. Actually I can barely see it on trix and when I do I am unsure it's the same thing. I only recently started to use HP5 so is there something to dig here. I am not inclined in thinking that ilford films are faulty yet but maybe they are less forgiving with this particular issue.

So I am left to wonder the following :

1. does anyone know for a fact if a developer can do this ? Maybe I have a bad batch of HC110. I used this developer for decades without issues and now can’t get a film developed without those streaks… After all kodak had some serious issues with D76 recently.

2. Can a film defect (coating or other) produce this ?

3. Can a bad fixer be responsible ?

At this point switching the chemistry is the only thing I can see that remains to be tried. After that I guess I can't use film anymore, after 25 years of pratice it's crazy...

To narrow the possibilities, check if the lines appear:

 

1. Immediately after fixing, before washing.

2. Immediately after washing, before wetting agent.

3. Immediately after wetting agent, before wiping. (I don't recommend wiping, anyway.)

4. Immediately after wiping, before drying.

The problem is not always obvious enough to spot on the negative sometimes it is barely visible and only shows on the contact print, but I will pay more attention.

Look at the first frame (second picture). Those are not just wavy lines running along the film, but circles. Foam.

Definitely came to be during processing or, indeed, washing and drying.

 

I would bet it is the latter: drying. The two lines will probably match up with the clip used to hang the film.

Make sure the film is dry, i.e. no water running down or drops remaining on the surface. You have to be careful, but run the film between your fingers to wipe both sides. And make sure that there is no water trapped in the upper clip that will leak out and run down the strip.

 

And re being careful: the 4th frame (first picture) shows a mark caused by buckling the film while handling it.

That frame (the first on the roll) also shows that the pattern starts as the impression of a circular feature. Too big, almost, to be a bubble.

What are you using to wash, and hang the film to dry?

I did hang one film to dry horizontally and the problem was still there, so It cannot be a drying issue. I have an overflowing film washer and wash for 20 minutes, then tetenal wetting agent for about 30-60s in distilled water, but also tried no wetting agent I squeegee slightly between my finger and hang it to dry.

Wow. That is frustrating.

 

I hear a couple of conflicting statements one pointing to camera the other to process - probably because troubleshooting is still a work in progress:

1) Never on Fujis, but on both your Hasselblad bodies.

2) Problem can be eliminated by using 3 reel tank with with only 2 loaded rolls to allow for more agitation.

I pretty sure one of these must be wrong - I'm inclined to think 1).

 

If that is the case and If I were you, I would introduce major process related changes. Ideally one by one.

• Pre-soak in water prior to development.
  
• Developer: A different dilution/time - dilution H for example. Or try another developer if you have it available.
  
• Stop bath: If you use it, try to just use water rinse. If you don't use stop, then try it (you can make it from citric acid if you have it in your household).
  
• Fix: try a different dilution. I don't know Tetenal, but Adox is also useable at 1+7 with extended time.
  
• Wash/Dry: Well - I don't think it is there the problem lies - but easy to see after fixation if the problem is there or not prior to washing.
  

Fuji shows the problem too so it's not a light leek definitely even in tank since I have used at least 3 different tanks. I am starting to wonder if I can have a bad batch of HC110 and if a bad developer can do something like that... The problem is not always obvious enough to spot on the negative sometimes it is barely visible and only shows on the contact print. I guess the next step is to buy new chemistry.

It's best to use a wetting agent but it must be the right ratio to water ... 200:1 or whatever it says on the container. If it's too weak, it's not much better than plain water.

 

How do you wash the films ? Do you just fill the tank and swoosh then empty out a few times, or do you leave the tank under a tap for 15-30mins ? The fixer needs to be washed out thoroughly.

I'll have to calculate the wetting agent I use 2 drops in a Tupperware full of distilled water. Washing is in a film washer for 20min. In any case it's 200% not some drying marks. It's in the emulsion and I even died one roll horizontally...

The process is the same except I now use Ilford film since kodak has gone berserk on prices. After a few more tests it appears that the issue is barely perceptible on trix that has a thick base+fog and much more visible on ilford films that have a clearer base, FP4+ showing the most effect. So maybe I had the problem for years and did not realise as I don't take pictures of empty blue sky that much... I also have 2 new camera bodies from different sources so I 1st though camera problem but the same problem shows on both bodies and 2 backs... Plus the hasselblad service shop here in Paris has checked and serviced the equipment. And a couple rolls to a pro lab didn't show the same issue. It could be luck but I agree it most probably is process related.

So I tried to change my process. I changed tanks, reels, inversion method, but still there. The best I can get is by using a 3 reels tank with one empty reel to get even more agitation. But this is not normal...

I also started to use tetenal superfix plus 1+4 5min

So this new development is soooo bad that I actually manage to take a picture of the problem on the film. 3 lines this times and one of them becomes round like a drop of some liquid...