BACK ALLEY

Back of the old Kingsburg Hotel

Descending stairs to nowhere?

Again David, like a forensic photographer you investigate your way through the historic back structures, revealing the bones and layers of once proud buildings. This is the perfect choice for b&w. I like you still find beauty in these places. Thanks for the pic.

You always say the nicest things. This sorry effort garnered a whopping 4.33 for aesthetics and topped it off with a 3.67 for originality from a grand total of 6 of my fellow photonetters. Thanks for the encouragement. You're a hell of a gentleman. Sorry, I'm just having a cynical cocktail, and it went to my head.

Dave, if you just had a nekkid babe lounging on that fire escape, this would be a solid 6/6. I know well your feelings, but I came to the conclusion that ratings have become absolutely meaningless. This shows very truthfully and effectively the backside of American life. IMO, we have come to the point that we would prefer illusion over reality. That is what we see in advertising, in movies, and on tv. Our photography just reflects the extent that has infiltrated our culture. Okay, off the soapbox. I like your picture, for the reasons Kent expressed so well.

Just tell me this. If I had the nekkid babe on the back porch up there and it would get me a 6/6, would I be able to get it to a 7/7 if I had her groping herself? I'm trying to learn.

I really need to stop whining, and I know it. Susan Stone and I were kind of having a dialog (http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=4891421) and I alluded to your once pulling your pictures over the dissatisfaction you felt from your PN experience, and how I encouraged you to "get over it." But truth is, it is far easier to give this advice than it is to follow it. I'm kind of to the point where I don't want to put anything up for critique because it's just not worth getting beaten up. I do think I now fully comprehend the frustration you felt at that point. I went to the TRP page last night for the first time (yeah, really), and one of the pictures was a head shot of an eagle. Nothing more. For the life of me, I cannot understand what the meaning of such a picture is. Yes, it's technically correct. Yes, the color was pretty. Yes, eagles are nice, especially in the U.S. Yes, it probably took an expensive long lens, so we'll give you extra points for that. But it's just a freaking eagle! Not even with any other environmental particulars. Just an eagle's head! I look at a scene like this and I know it isn't pretty. It may not even be technically well done. But are you and I and Kent the only ones who see a story being told here? Maybe so. Or, maybe it's just that nobody cares about the story. Which is worse? Clearly, a pretty picture with no particular meaning trumps an ugly one with a message. I guess that is kind of where our culture is right now.

Okay, so now I'll get off the soapbox too. As always I enjoy your comments and your preeminent humanity. Take care.

Admittedly I, like yourself, enjoy the confirmation of a high rating but I have to often remind myself where I am and who is participating. PN is a very interesting, enjoyable, frustrating, bothersome, encouraging, dull and inspiring place. You are in a very wide common denominator space. There are very experienced, skilled and accomplished photographers to amateur know-nothings to angry and bitter souls which result in ratings that reflect that breadth. Among these varied photographers, there are even more varied tastes. I?ve not told you anything you don?t already know but as artists we put ourselves in a fragile place by publicly placing our work on display for anyone and everyone. I have commented on this occasionally and I will share my thoughts on how I view this situation.

 

Professionally I am a Creative Director and I can and do shred people?s work with an unforgiving critical eye. It?s what they pay me for. The writers, designers and photographers I hire and work with understand that that is part of the business. This space however is odd in that most of these people are not professionals and either don?t know how to access work and more importantly don?t have a context for that assessment. For example what is the photographer attempting to capture and communicate? What is the photographer?s end in mind? What is that photographer?s background and larger body of work consists of? Instead, your work is reviewed in a 3 second response to an image that pops up in the critique forum.

I?m not saying everyone reviews work this way but clearly that is a big part of the exposure. The other challenge is the mass of work. There is so much (almost a glut) of images, with the digital camera market saturation of which most is crap. Everyone is a photographer nowadays. Such is the space we play in. Again don?t get me wrong. There are plenty of very good photographers and some great innovative work here, which is why I still participate.

 

My only suggestion to you would be to pursue your own passion and be your own harshest critique. Nobody knows more about your work than you do. History has shown countless artists whose work was berated and thankless only to be realized later and in some cases never. Art is an individual endeavor, and for me done mostly for me. I am by far my own harshest critique. I do rely on those select few whose experience and opinion help me to try and make improvements. I am by no means a professional photographer and I through up my share of crap but hey it?s a free focus group and I dig that.

 

I enjoy your work and see the spirit in it. Even though we shoot similar things I would shoot them differently and you do as well. That?s the beauty of the artist?s individual eye.

 

We?ll continue to see bald eagles and naked shit get high ratings but I do try and take this space with a big dose of light-heartedness. I get a kick out some of the comments and ratings and try and see the humor in it. I can?t take it too seriously knowing it?s like pulling up to a Wendy?s drive up window and holding up a photo and asking them to give a rating from 3-7. Come on now.

 

Sorry about the terribly long-winded reply. Kent B.

I don't mind your long winded comment at all. I'm amazed and honored that you would take that much time to address these issues with me. You have a very large (and well deserved) following, so I'm sure there are significant other demands on PN that require your time. By the way, the fact that you address everyone who comments on your photos in a personal manner is indicative of the type of gentleman that you are. You could still garner good ratings and lots of nice comments without taking the trouble to do that. So, knowing what I do about you, I am very appreciative of your expending that much time on your comment.

 

And, of course, your comments are as dead on as your images are. I cannot argue with a thing you say. We pretty much see things the same way. It's just that you are much more graceful in your approach. I shall try to learn from that.

 

Have a great day.

Yeah, but you don't see me sobbing in the darkness lit only by the soft sad glow of my computer screen. Ha, ha, ha!

 

David, half the fun here is meeting interesting and talented people as yourself. It would not cross my mind to not reply when others take the time to comment on my selfish postings.

 

Take care and take photos.

A word from one of the non-graceful ones...I want to thank you Kent for saying so gracefully that it is about staying true to what your art is for you...The fact that some of our images are viewed thousands of times and never commented on, is enough of a mind fuck as it is...This summer I have done 12 Art fairs selling framed and matted images all over Montana (8 more shows to go)...some of those fairs have brought anywhere from 1 to 10,000 people through my booth...many of them looking and staring for long periods of time...then leaving never to comment...not a nod or a wink... others with tons of fun and interesting talk, questions and general engagement with me...but on the whole it has been a real learning experience for me...Standing next to my art hanging out there with finger prints and dust stuck on the other side of the glass...people asking you if I use digital or film , how much in photoshop do I manipulate the image...without ever even commenting on the image itself...I have been guilty of this here on P.nut...in between printing and packing for a fair...trying to deal with this world of art and commerce I feel I have not been supporting my fellow and fella artist on this site enough...But when I do get a chance to browse I see and read that rateing on this site has turned too many good artists into whinners...(and maybe some into winos)...There are many on this site that just shoot and shoot...posting and learning as much as they can and of course having as much fun as they can...staying true to their art and never whinning...I hope to someday be one of those guys! I am thankful for the artist like you David and Kent that can dish it out and take it! I hope that there was some shred of sense in what I jeez posted...if not I blame it on too much dark room chemicals...OH...thought I would actualy comment on this image...Back alleys for me have always been interesting but not places I have always been comfortable in...way easier on well lit sunny days...I try and ask myself why I am taking this shot every time I do...trying to keep my answer to one sentence...I like the...ect. keeping short and simple...for me this image is about the stairs to nowhere...so I cropped it a bit...I would like to also suggest that if you enjoy making these type of photos of buildings that you take a rather large ladder with you so as to help with perspective angles...or better yet purchase a REAL camera so you can change lenzes!! Love and respect FVWM

 

OH yeah...I would have put the nekid babe on the fridge...since there are no stairs to realy talk about...Juan

Boy I guess you and the Kent man put me in my place. I'm cool with that and I have to agree with most of what you both said. I am really going to try and not let these little things bother me, and I'm going to do my best to enjoy the shit out of what little time I have left on earth doing photography. And if nobody likes the stuff, well f_ _ _ 'em. Juan, I cannot quite go with your crop. It's not bad, but part of why I took this pic is the general atmosphere. The abandoned fridge and stairway that now leads nowhere are the heart of it, but the coiled razor wire on the left, and the dark tones on both sides are important elements in my mind.

 

As for buying a decent camera, I'm all for that. Can I count on you for a contribution to help this poor struggling artist wanabe with a new camera? How about you put a jar out at your next fair, with a story about me and we can see how much you can collect.

 

Anyway, I have to say, guys like you, Doug and Kent are what keep me on PN, and what makes life interesting.

I often think of Lewis Hine, a photographer and a person I greatly admire. He followed his heart and took pictures of people and scenes that were important to him. He took them well, but he died broke. Now his pictures of immigrants at Ellis Island hang there, blown up large. His photos of children in horrible working conditions helped change child labor laws. Would he have done well on PhotoNet? He would have gotten a bushel of 3/3s. But he believed in what he was trying to say in pictures. I think you have to decide. Do you want to get public acclaim? Or are you trying to say something important to you? In any event, I think Kent said it well. You'll be your own worst critic, and you'll know when you've done well what you wanted to do. And that's all that's important. Geez, I'm rambling. Now if I could just garner the strength to ignore the rejection that PN now so mindlessly dishes out.

Juan

David

Doug

 

Nothing more to add really other than to just say thanks for the enlightening conversation and great perspective you all bring to this place. I thrive on differing points of view and uniqueness of mind. Juan I admire your endeavors.

 

Continued respect and enduring encouragement to all of you.

I am blown away by the intelligent, respectful, and fun words you have bestowed upon me. I mean that.