My first nude

Marina- a few questions remain to be answered.

1-Did you obtain a release from the patient?

2-Isn't the title a little off color?

3-What type of medical professional are you?

 

This may clear up a few of my questios. Thanks

 

Maybe the ethics rules on patients photo publishing are different in every countries, but I am sure the presumption of inocency is the same all over the world: "A person is innocent until the opposite is demonstrated". I feel that right of mine has been violated in this web page and I ask you: What is worse, to ALLEGEDLY violate the patients rights or to EVIDENTLY violate my right to presumption of inocency?

Marina

 

I think the questions Jayme and others have asked - did you get authority from the patient to take this shot.

 

By avoiding answering this very relevant question people can only make their own assumptions...

 

It is always astonishing your ability to analize what you see from the dark side. If I post the photo, you take for granted that I made it without permission, if I do not answer inmediately you guess I am evading the answer...that's right; if, in order to continue this thread, I have to answer before a popular and spontaneous jury, I do.

 

The ethic rules are the same in every country: I may not show my patients photos without their consent, or alternatively I must hide the eyes to make identification imposible. In this particular case, I had the patient's permission, even though it was not necessary since the tube through her nose and the angle from which the photo was taken, make her face unrecognizable. Furthermore, when I showed the photo to the patient, she did not recognized herself.

 

The patient has followed this thread and firmly disagrees with the violation of my right to be considered innocent, and the devious way this matter has been analized.

 

As I imagined, having in mind the way this thread is developing and seeing your distrust, we decided yesterday to make this picture so you can see in a graphic way that she agrees, she is happy being my patient and wishes you to see the change on her face achieved with the surgery, but since the images have no aesthetic value, my ethic rules refrain me from posting them, but are available for those interested in seeing them, just ask me and I send them through private mail. Of course, you may think this is a PS photo montage...but that's is only a confrontation with your own conscience.

 

Regarding my qualifications, I am a medical doctor specialized in Odonto-Stomatology; you can follow part of my career searching in Internet. I never have had any legal denunciation from any of the thousands of patients i have treated in more than 25 years of professional practice.

 

And about the title, I have only a question: Is the patientt naked? Can you see in the photo any part of her body she's is not freely showing? Obviously the answer is NO.

Imagine a person who only makes landscape photos, and one day post a photo entitled "my first portrait" and it is the image of a microorganism made through the microscope...it's just a joke.

Now is your turn......

 

 

 

 

The pic.

Que cachonda eres.................me encanta.............

 

Thanks Bruno , Alberto , Mauricio , Paloma, Guillermo etc , etc........ thanks everybody in my side with your post. ...THANKS !!

Great Marina! Anyhow I want to tell you that in my opinion you were entitled not to answer those self appointed inquisitors and members of the moral brigade that so much pain, distrust, enmity etc. have brought into the world. But OK you did it and you did it well. I like too Vasilis Apostolopoulos comment, I was thinking to write something in the same lines.

It took a long time and interest to read the whole thread....

 

I think that it has to be splite into two parts.

 

The quality of the image, and the photographic Ethical issue in general.( before finishing art school I finished nursing school as well, so I'm a RN like Jayme)

 

The image is very well done,Marina,looks to me more a photojurnalism than artistic one, and I don't know if that was your aim in presenting it. The title, as you see is problematic, as it was interpreted not as you intended it to be,and I join Jayme in it, as I thought the same in that case.your aim did not work out well with the title.

 

The second is the ethics. Marina, I give you the full credit of knowing the medical ethics, and I'm sure you have taken all the needed measures before, as well the fact that you can not identify the face.Rest the general issue of photographic ethics .( as the medical one is clear!)

 

In my country, a very well known photographer was brought to court( with the well known paper he is working for) because of a street image he has taken and published. I don't remember the details, but the man he photographed sued him for violating his anonymity, AND WON! the photographer ( and newspaper) paied him a nice sum of money....

 

So it is a relevant issue that came up, that your image brought up.

 

I think that we all have to be carfull in the way we express ourselves, as we are talking to unknown people and it is easy to hurt and being hurt...

 

Pnina

Thanks for your comment, Pnina.

You see, I am a lawyer by training and have been been professionally involved with publishing newspapers and magazines where two individual rights where permanently at odds: the right of public opinion to be informed and the right to privacy of the individuals. Because of this experience I feel entitled to comment on the story you tell about that journalist sued and condemned.

It is an example, just one.

I could tell you about thousand similar others where the sued party won.

Justice is a great word, greater than the judicial world which not always make Justice when judgements are passed. Judges do make mistakes and they often do. That's way the right to appeal exists.

And now to this thread

All this thread is about an individual right, Intimacy, which- according to the self appointed inquisitors- has been violated. But the inquisitors, in their supreme ignorance, forget about other individuals rights.

I would mention just one: the right to a just trial. Marina has already made quite clear her opinion on having been judged,condemned and hanged based only on a mere assumption. A baseless assumption.

Couldn't those bigots have, equally, assumed that the photographer acted rightfully when posting the photo?

Or, perhaps, they thought -as policemen think these days when they see someone "different" carrying a sack and boarding a public transport that shooting without asking first is the right and protocollary action to take- that because the photo was posted by an alien person she became a suspect by definition and started the fusillade?

Let me answer that petty-nurse-cum inquisitor named Jayme in a separate comment.

You, standing on an 'eburnea turris' and taking a superiority stance, made an assumption.

On that assumption, passed judgment and condemned. What of the right of the defendant to be heard...? Whyat for? Just a loss of precious time he could take advantage of!

It smells of Far West, of shooting from the hip, of Abu Grhaib, of Guantanamo and of poor Mr. Jean Charles de Menezes

Continuing arguing with you is worthless since you make your judgements on assumptions.

I prefer to base mine on reason and on emotions: Emotions like respect for others different from me and interest for their diversity. Emotions like the acceptance of other's different points of view

On Making Assumptions

Let me remind you of a caption that a US Northamerican friend of mine (whom I respect because he makes himself respected thru his actions and openly voiced opinions) told me when he was teaching me the dangers of making assumptions. He said:

To Assume is essentially dangerous. The danger lies on the essence of the word assume and its separate components:

Ass - You - Me

Make Assumptions and Make an Ass of You and Me

But you made the assumption, not me!

Alberto, I live in the Middle East, where hits and hits back is a common and every day reality ,and I have learned a lesson, that hits and hits back are not necessarily solving problems and clearing issues in debates, let alone dispute.

 

I think it is a good lesson for all of us.

Pnina

I think that the issues in this thread are very interesting, but alas not always tackled in a constructive way. Unfortunately photography as such has not been at the centre of the discussion, perhaps because this image is outstanding; it does not call for a controversy and should be pretentious to make harsh critics on it. Other issues have been more controversial. Some of them have been carried in an extremely ideological and prejudiced way, but I think the balance up to now is positive as it brought to the light some relevant issues, provided some strong arguments and show dilemmas that are often unavoidable when we take photos from people. All of them, issues, arguments and choices show that the meaning of a photo is not to be found only in its photographic merits but in what it represents. This demands from the critic to take into consideration contextual determinations. Since they are part of the meaning of a photo they should not be introduced lightly or serving obscure, unconfessed, unacknowledged fears, prejudices or ignorance. Therefore I think that this discussion, for all its merits, has been confusing as well because those contextual factors have been handled in a biased way, without rigor, unfairly, becoming a personal indictment, loosing finally any critical value. I think that Marina deserves an apology; it is only fair that she gets praise for her photo and respect for her ethical integrity.

La imagen sonriente de la paciente ha sellado la pluma inquisitiva de la Hall.

Con la foto de la paciente que has incorporado has dado una respuesta valida y correcta e incluso podria ser unica, pues como dicen "vale mas una imagen que 1000 palabras".

Hasta ahora me entero, estoy de acuerdo con Federico y con los que te defienden, abrazos Marina!

To Marina-

Thank you for answering my questions..... that's all I asked. I do apologize for any misunderstanding. My intent was not to assume anything, only to protect & defend patients rights. I still stand by my opinion, the title is in bad taste.

 

Respectfully,

 

Jayme.

 

To Alberto-

When I read your words, I felt anger. The words you used to describe me personally were very powerful. Words like "Bigot", "Petty-Nurse-Cum-Inquisitor".

 

Then I thought about it & got out the Webster's.

 

Bigot=(definition) a person, obstinately or intolerantly, devoted to his or her own opinions. Yes, this does describe me. I am a person who is obstinately devoted to my own opinion. Hum....... isn't everyone? Devoted to their own opinion?

 

Petty= (definition) having little or no importance or significance. Yes, that's also true. We as individuals, really have little significance in the overall scheme of things. So, I guess you are correct on this count too. My opinion of this image has little importance, as do I personally, in the grand scheme of things. As do any of my other opinions on the ways of the world.

 

Inquisitor=(definition) one who inquires. Yes, this describes me too. I was inquiring.

 

Assuming is dangerous, I agree. Your anger toward me personally, is just a little strange. Maybe you should look inside yourself and discover, who exactly are you angry at? Me? I think not!

 

I'm glad you live, very, very far away from me. All this anger, directed at me, for what purpose? All because of my opinion? Opinions do not equal facts. Opinions are just view points, not facts. I am entitled to my opinion, am I not? Just as you are entitled to yours. I may not agree with your opinion, but I will defend your right to have one.

 

I agree, assuming makes an ASS out of U & ME. ME, I am willing to assume my title, how about U?

 

Respectfully,

 

One Ass.

I think that we all are waiting some apologies from you.

 

You came here making statements about the people doubt morality and ethics. You called me an ignorant (or maybe it was directed to someone else?).

 

Now that you've been proved wrong, it would be really nice, and elegant, to say "sorry guys, I was wrong, didn't mean no harm". Or something similar.

 

I would really appreciate it. It's not ironic or kidding. I mean this sincerely.

Bruno- my only words to you were in a question.

 

"Bruno- I am guessing OT= off topic?"

 

How could you possibly ASSUME I was calling you ignorant? Now, we ARE off topic.

 

My referrences to WWII were purely analogical.

 

Please accept my apologies, as I wrote, just above your last comment.

 

Respectfully,

Jayme AKA (Also Known As)(one of the ASSes)

And finally. If any of you would like to continue this discussion, feel free to email me. I would be glad to respond. However, since I see that this discussion of "how wrong I am" or "how wrong you are" is not fair to Marina's image, I respectfully decline to comment any further. Feel free to email me.

 

 

Sorry Marina for my part in the degradation of this discussion. I will remove my posts if you desire. Please let me know. Glad to see the patient is happy and recovering nicely!

 

Jayme

About deleting your comments I would like you not to do it. As I told you before, I am a great defender of the right of expression, and I like a lot the threads generated in Internet that let us to know better and get closer each other, breaking political, cultural, religious and geographic barriers.

 

I appreciate and am grateful for your apologies and accept them. I have never been damaged from yor words, since the biggest judge I have is my own conscience and what it dictates is what rules my life.

 

I have been educated that way and have tried to educate my children the same, so this could be one of the greatest assets of their lives.

 

Gracefully said Marina,The freedom of speech mast be sacred, as it is the very base of democracy. Pnina

Ok, we already exchanged a few emails, but I also felt - like Marina - that it was better to bury the axe of war... uhm.. in public ;)

I do bury my axes, as well, and since we all want to preserve individual rights, and as a memory to minorities, why don't we, as well, smoke together a pipe of peace, freedom and friendliness?

Although I do not smoke, sure I can share that pipe of peace too.