POLLUTION

The gentleman deleted his comments, so if you are coming across this anew, my answer to nobody may not make sense. I'm not fond of people deleting their comments unless there is offensive material included, which there was not in this case.

 

A most interesting perspective for sure. Yes, I suppose the fact that gun stores exist here is a testament of sorts to our freedom. But just because we have that freedom and it is used, is not necessarily good. In an ideal society, nobody would want guns, and that would seem to me to be the goal. I would have thought that in Israel that gun ownership would be permitted, since so many of your citizens are trained in their use, and they are much more necessary for defense of the country than here.

 

I have owned a fair number of guns over the years, and still keep a weapon at home, but I loath the way they are idealized in this country. Too often they are viewed as just another toy to be played with, but one that will also make you more powerful and manly. I do not necessarily favor banning them because we obviously cannot control anything the populace wants (drugs being the best example). So our task should be one of making them less desirable. Education and ethics need to be emphasized. I don't think the ancient Greeks felt a need for carrying weapons in their democracy, and I see no reason why we should either. Guns are for armies and soldiers. Not for a civilized society in use of dispute resolution.

 

Thank you so much for giving me your thoughts. Ever since I found you on Photo.net, I've thought you to be a most interesting character and a fine photographer.

i don't know Meir, i think the US is developing an OK Corrall mentality. last night a family was shot when they knocked at a door while trick or treating. a 12-year-old boy died. did the shooter buy his gun at a gun store? don't know. the details are not out on that. i personally know a woman whose husband was shot and killed by a neighbor while waiting for the school bus with their children, their little boy was shot in the process and has had numerous surgeries over the last 4 years from the resulting injury. one of their daughters witnessed her father's murder. this was just a random act of violence committed by a man who should have been committed to a mental institution. of course i do not have your perspective, but this "right to bear arms" is often misconstrued to mean i can shoot whoever i want to.

impressive image. Yes, it conveys a sense of foreboding seeing that ad in such a barren and vast landscape. But it's a sense that one day will become all to real. One day your country will be hopelessly divided by that "right". It isn't about freedom either. While you may be free to buy and carry a gun you have to consider that every nitwit has the same right. How much freedom does that leave for any individual? Looking at the statistics of gunrelated crime it should be obvious that US society has a big problem but the fact of the matter is that lots of your countrymen are in complete denial of that. Who can forget Heston's speech "... from my cold dead hands"

I have no problem with guns as such. My father was a member of a gun club and shot competion for years when I was young. Sports and hunting I don't see as a problem but who would have a real need for full automatic weapons. Any father who puts a Uzi into the hands of his 8-year old son I would call mentally unstable and it should be considered a criminal act. Tragic how it may be that he lost his son, rightfully he should be sentenced and go to jail for that.

What most of your countrymen can't get in their head is the fact that the socalled right was included in your constitution at a time that there was a real need for that. Nowadays it has become more of a stranglehold. Sure, we've got gunrelated crime here as well and even the odd teenager who emptied his gun at school but really, there is no comparison. Anyone who ever held a gun in his hands and shot it can I think understand the obsession of many Americans with guns, at least to a certain extent. For a lot of Americans however it isn't just an obsession anymore because they are clearly fanatic in defending that "right". No politician has yet been succesfull in limiting that. Clinton once tried but backed down fast. Such is the influence of the NRA lobby in Washington. One day you will pay the price.

Hi David...It's been a while....Nice shot here! good exposure and the horizon is straight......hehehehe

 

My question would be....is it not the same to drive and see the air pollution from our car and not do anything about it...except keep driving...? we do it every day...culturally speaking...I think the automobile has sped up the demise of too many cultures...maybe even more than weapons such as these...Guns and the crazy people who use them scare the shit out of me....(the combo even more ) I know many that use guns with utmost respect but.... BUT they drive their four wheeled weapons with absolutely none at all....or visa versa?!

I read that story about the 8 year old boy...sad does not describe it very well...how many close calls happen that we don't hear`about...?

 

I wish I knew the answer...we are so dependent on our chariots....weapons...My Eddy is obsessed with recycling....even when we have to DRIVE 50 miles to do it...as I know we should.

 

Daily I deal with the guilt of all the waste my art produces, just as I drive by polluted scenes as this... I commend you for posting this image/question...wouldn't it have been nice if you had shot this from your bicycle?

I really love the range of thoughts on this from Linda to Meir...I guess it's about taking the good with the bad or......?

juan

 

Back to the fray. First, let me say to Meir that, while the purpose of Pnet is to talk critically about the art (or lack thereof) of photography, it is certainly not forbidden to discuss some of the issues presented about that photography. Of course there is nothing wrong with limited comments to exposure, DOF, tonality, color palette, composition, etc. By now, you should know that I enjoy presenting social and economic conundrums as part of what I do. That being the case, I see no problem with “cluttering” the critique section with comments that may stray far afield of the true critique process. I know there are many who would not feel that way and that is fine. In my case, I enjoy the give and take in discussing relevant issues with intelligent and knowledgeable folks. For that reason, I’ll post here and email you the same response.

 

Ton, I agree with much that you say. If I were you I would not be quite so sanguine about where this country is going. Just as the financial meltdown has taken much of the world with it, so, too, will many cataclysmic events here, have far reaching effects on the rest of the world. I’m not suggesting there is much you can do, but I am concerned that this country has way too much influence on the destiny of mankind.

 

Some background. Meir, I grew up with guns, just like you. I had a little 22 rifle by the time I was ten. I learned to hunt and thought I enjoyed it immensely. Started out on rabbits and squirrels, and eventually to pheasant, quail, ducks, etc. Except when I was really dumb and young, I always had the belief that I could not hunt and kill wildlife unless it was going to be eaten. I’ll admit that I never liked squirrel, rabbit, or any of the things I killed. At some point I realized that even on the days that I went out to hunt and did not kill anything, I enjoyed myself greatly. So why was I killing? That’s when my hunting days ended. To this day I regret having killed for sport. I don’t believe in it and I think it is an ethical mistake. To me, killing for fun is simply wrong. In fact, I could take it a step further and state that we might all be better off if we relied less on animal husbandry (a polite way of saying “cruelty”) for our sustenance. Please be aware that I am only a wannabe vegetarian, so I’m aware of my hypocrisy.

 

Over the years, I have owned a fair number of guns. I still keep a nine millimeter in my house, although I am increasingly thinking of getting rid of it. At one time I Owned a business that was located in a somewhat undesirable part of town. I often worked very late, and left the business late at night. I became concerned that some people might lay in wait, thinking I had the day’s receipts with me, so I started carrying a gun with me even though it was illegal. Yes, it might have saved my life, but it might also have lead to my being shot with my own gun. After all, unless it is drawn and the safety off, it would not take much to overpower a person when surprised. It is mostly a myth that you can defend yourself by carrying a firearm. More often than not you cannot bring it to an effective position in time to do any good.

 

I am also reminded of a time when I was driving through a large city in a rainstorm. The electrical power had been knocked out, so the stoplights at intersections were not working. Everyone knows (or should know) that when a stoplight is not operating, it is treated as a four way stop. I came to a stoplight, made a brief stop, and took off almost immediately, as there was no traffic coming from the left or right. Behind me was a jacked up four wheel drive pickup with a very large redneck at the wheel. As I pulled away from the non functioning light, he honked at me as if to say, “What are you stopping for you idiot, you just got free pass through that light and you stopped.” I’m sure he saw it as an opportunity to indulge in the old west behavior of biggest, meanest, most aggressive, goes first. So, anyway, as I pulled away I lifted my right hand up and raised the middle finger. Admittedly, that was not the smartest thing to do, but it was something I was within my rights to do. I forgot to mention that I had my wife and infant son in the car. Well the redneck went nuts, and began to try and run me off the road for the next half mile. Of course my wife was frightened to death, but I kept my cool, and slowed and speeded up as necessary to keep him at bay. Now the point to this whole sad story is that if I had had my pistol, I might well have decided that it would be less risky to me and the family to stop and confront the big dumb redneck. And, by confront, I do not mean get into a fight with him, because I’m not a fighter, nor am I foolish enough to think I could physically best someone much larger than myself. So, it is quite possible that had I stopped and confronted this man, I may very well of shot him. I’ve had firearms training, so I think there is a pretty good chance he would be dead. All over a perceived insult.

 

And, my friends, this is the sort of thing that happens all too often. Add to that the fact that too many people do not seem to have the capacity to understand the nature of firearms, along with a criminal element that has all too easy access to firearms, and you see tragedies occurring on a daily basis.

 

I do not intend to enter into the banning or not of guns, merely because I believe that trying to ban drugs, as with alcohol and everything else we’ve tried to ban, the importation of guns cannot be stopped. Our only hope is in education and ethics. When we become smart enough as a nation to realize what is going on, and turn our backs on violence and weaponry, then we may begin to address the problem. That appears to be a long way off, or, perhaps, never.

 

And Ton, I’m often impressed with your knowledge of the American psyche. You are completely right that the issue has transcended all rationality.

 

As for you, amigo Juan, I will certainly confess to being a hypocrite. I’m a big one. One point you make I think is not well taken. When you say we know the damage our driving is causing, and why do we tolerate it, the answer is obvious. The economy would fold if we did not. In the case of guns, we know the damage it causes, but we would not have to worry about terrible consequences if they were removed from the picture. Well, at least it got a comment on one of my pics out of you. That’s unusual.

 

Meir, you did not say anything about freedom, but the concept is integral to the whole gun debate IMHO.

 

Finally, I will say this, and I think it is on solid ground although I have no data to support it. There are no nations on earth that are considered desirable places to live, where firearms are numerous, easily available, commonly owned and carried and debated fervently. The United States is the only one, and it is losing ground as a desirable place to live to many other countries.

 

Hey Viejo... I don't think that you are any bigger a hypocrite than I...!

 

We know the damages of driving and we have known it for many years as well...and we continue to do little about it...It's no different with guns...Our great nation is one of the biggest suppliers of weapons of this Planet...! Our economy is based on the same freedom to own guns as it is to pollute the very same place we protect with our guns...?

 

I do not disagree with most of your statements or comments that you make with your images...

 

The irony of humanity was the point I was trying to make...Life out of balance...is the wobble too far gone?

 

What would happen if the economy folded...would a new better one result? We are now set out to bail out the automobile industry because the "economy" did not support them retooling for electric cars 35 years ago...and now they are refooling the american people...( I know the oil companies had their little part in it)...

 

Lastly...by the time I get to make a comment on one of your wonderful images I am usually too depressed after reading the many comments...I hope you know that what you say with your images I respect...I also hope...that someday some good change can come from all the awareness you have caused...talking about change is the first step...now is...as always...the time to make the changes...

Peace...wvamm

 

I didn't mean to be critical of you. I freely admit that I'm a hypocrit, and damn few of us are not. And that is not a defense either. I try to work on it. My only point in that was that cars to some extent are a necessity to survival. Guns mostly are not. Of course we could have done a way better job of dealing with the car problem with technology in the cars and mass transit availability in many places.

 

I was mainly on your ass, because I miss what used to be the regular give and take with you. I enjoyed it greatly. But for some reason it doesn't seem to happen these days.

 

That's an interesting question about the economy. I think if it tanks enough, we will see some really nasty stuff come down. I don't think most people realize how close we are to the same kind of meltdown that happened with the Serbs, Croats, and Albanians. It could happen here too.

Viejo...No te precupres...I am as worried as you with the direction this world is heading...I am just tired of hearing about it and not seeing things change...Sept 18th this year I became a citizen...I had to swear to bear arms if this country asked me to...hows that for some irony...?Can you see me laying on my big gut looking down the barrel of that thing on the billboard?

 

Keep shooting Veijito... from the hip and with that camera of yours...! wvamm

Are you sure you should have done that? Venezuela's economy may be better than ours before long.

 

As far as you on the ground with a long barrel pointed toward the enemy, I think you are in the same boat as me. They'd have to get another soldier to grab our feet , and pivot us on our bellies to get the right direction and altitude for us to shoot. I guess if we remained standing we would be better shots.

 

Congratulations citizen De Santa Ana. Have you thought of changing your name to George or Abraham? lol

Indeed, you are right. Only thing is, we have a bomb problem too. It's just that ours are strapped to missiles and might turn us all into dinosaurs. Not strapped to fanatics.

Lol... the image of them grabbing our legs to swivel us in the right direction is just too FN funny...

 

Meir...sorry to have spelled your name wrong earlier...I have corrected it...and yes I agree too many bombs...I keep waiting for the aliens to attack...so we as a planet can work together...

 

wvamm

it's not so much I'm being sanguine about it, I'm merely an optimistic realist. America has still a lot that's to be admired. I don't believe in apocalyptic talk just as I don't believe either of you is a hypocrit. America is full of them but you are both capable of reflecting the way your society is developing. The way things are going you'll get a president whose term(s) will indeed create change, most important change will be the perception of the rest of the world. While I think there's a lot to be admired about McCain as an individual most people over here don't trust the right-wing (bible-belt country) of his party. Obama will have a lot on his plate but changed perception will mean that your country will be looked upon different again. I don't want to talk politics here (although I'm quite familiar with US politics) but the fact of the matter is that the last eight years in some ways can be summed up in this one photo. Intended or not, it's to your credit especially since it's not the first time you create a mirror for your society. The fact that so many people keep reacting on that is only testimony to that.

 

And Juan, before I forget. Heartfelt congratulations from this side. The US have gained a lot. A very talented photographer for one.

i have always believed that the best art stirs up ideas, emotions, and dialogues. David, this peice has certainly done that! i am glad that you care to be provocative

Ton...thanks for the compliment but you have no idea how big a hat I have to buy already...you'll be making my head swell to proportions that would be scary beyond belief..! juan

test drive an automatic; aftermath of a nuclear attack; eight years old was handed one; image of the worst of mankind's efforts; "greed" "brutally expolited"; It is apocalyptic; Not even in Iraq; madness and disease. And, it should cease; embarrassed to be an American; try on..on who?; country has become one of extremists (that is your comment -horrible distortion); democracy is unraveling; polluting this earth; antibodies kill the virus, or the host dies; right to bear arms" is often misconstrued to mean i can shoot whoever i want to; from my cold dead hands; fanatic in defending that "right"; scare the shit out of me; "enjoy the give and take in discussing" ; destiny of mankind; hunting...cruelty; violence and weaponry; guns a redneck thing people who like guns are rednecks; losing ground as a desirable place to live; Our economy is based on the same freedom to own guns as it is to pollute the very same place we protect with our guns...; Hey Viejo... I don't think that you are any bigger a hypocrite than I.; We are now set out to bail out the automobile industry because the "economy" did not support them retooling for electric cars 35 years ago...and now they are refooling the american people -where is his data?; I had to swear to bear arms if this country asked me to...hows that for some irony...?Can you see me laying on my big gut looking down the barrel of that thing on the billboard? ;They'd have to get another soldier to grab our feet , and pivot us on our bellies to get the right direction and altitude for us to shoot; Only thing is, we have a bomb problem too. It's just that ours are strapped to missiles and might turn us all into dinosaurs. Not strapped to fanatics.; last eight years in some ways can be summed up in this one photo;........ David; I deleted my previous comments.

 

Excellent photo with very interesting composition. I like the title is very conforming. The question which is the deadlier? certainly the two, or better a mixture of two. And I wonder why " to try one". Congrats !

This is not an issue that would ever be settled on a photo site. In fact it may never be settled until the next to the last person on earth is dead. You've seen a lot of beauty and a lot of misery and suffering in your lifetime. I assume that as a decent person you would wish to see the misery and suffering to cease or diminish. That said, we have differing perspectives on the manner and likelihood of this transpiration. Take care.

Thanks for the comments. I, too, wonder why to try one.

Of course it cannot be settled. I have my moods.

I am too far off the intent of the photo. I had no idea to solve the issue. I did not even comment on the issue second time around. I commented on the extremism of the other comments and absence of supporting facts: aftermath of nuclear attack, bible belt and especially -i can shoot anyone that i want to -think that was linda. One who looks at my folio might in the same vein say meir can shoot any one he wants. Good photo.

I want to relate to you an incident that happened just this afternoon at the fitness club I frequent. I have "gaijin" friends there from many countries and today a small group of us were discussing the recent elections. One of my friends, an Italian chef, always used to kid me and suggest that I give up my citizenship in Bush' looney bin and become an Italian citizen. Today he told about watching Obama's speech to the thousands who had gathered in that Chicago Park on election night and how the tears had come to his eyes. He said "my English is not so good but I heard the message, it was simple enough for even an Italian with poor English to understand clearly." Thousands of miles away, watching on television, he could sense the moment of change. There will always be billboards like this and hate mail; patriotic jingoism and partisan invective but in the end ignorance will not prevail. I'm no pie in the sky idealist and wasn't even in my long ago hippy days. But when you see the first buds poking up through the long winter's snow, even a hard-headed realist must come to the conclusion that Spring is not far off. There are plenty of problems and just as many gun stores as always; the way forward is going to be steep as hell but there are a lot of good-hearted people ready to undertake that march and old as I am, I'd like to be among them.

David - allow me to include this paragraph from the novel "Germinale" by Emile Zola.

 

"...Now the April sun, in the open sky, was shining in his glory, and warming the pregnant earth. From its fertile flanks life was leaping out, buds were bursting into green leaves, and the fields were quivering with the growth of the grass. On every side seeds were swelling, stretching out, cracking the plain, filled by the need of heat and light. An overflow of sap was mixed with whispering voices, the sound of the germs expanding in a great kiss. Again and again, more and more distinctly, as though they were approaching the soil, the mates were hammering. In the fiery rays of the sun on this youthful morning the country seemed full of that sound. Men were springing forth, a black avenging army, germinating slowly in the furrows, growing towards the harvests of the next century, and their germination would soon overturn the earth."

 

 

Emile Zola has big problems. If not for that "black avenging army" that he writes about there would be nothing here to be aware of what he writes about and Emile himself would not be here to write about it. :-) Reality is the outcome of Observation (me said that). Excellent folio you have. I just went through it.

 

 

 

 

 

i have to add one last comment to this image. after the election last week, i am not currently embarrassed to be American. (and my original comment was that i am "sometimes" embarrassed). i know that we as a country have a lot of work ahead to recover from where we are presently. and i know that one man alone cannot change things, and change does not happen overnight. i also find it very interesting that since the election, people have been buying guns like crazy out of fear of regulation. i wonder how many of those guns will end up in the hands of criminals.

 

Adan, is Zola saying that war is as inevitable as Spring?

I think my last comment too Linda. I have never read Zola. I have read Thomas Wolfe several times and he is one of my favorites. From out of the above Zola quote I might have thought I was reading Wolfe. The syles seem to me so much alike that one might think that Zola was a big influence on Wolfe. I would think that the answer to this photo is not to take things away from people. That only makes them angry and rebellious. . Your better answer is to change the value system of your society and that will not be accomplished by elections and Presidents. Your President to-be was determined by a landslide in electoral votes but only a small difference in the percentage of the popular vote. 'Change' is a "grassroots" thing. It comes from teachers and parents not electoral votes and Presidents. Golda Meir (rest in peace), my Golda , once said that "we", Israel, will have peace with the Arabs when they love their sons more than they hate us. That is what 'change' can be about. You will not have much crime nor many guns when your people come to love each other more. You are not there yet. My formative years were the 1940s before the big rural to urban shift and I miss those years and because of them have a different perspective. I will delete this if there is objection. P.S. I do not see well so I cannot proof read. Somtimes I don't know what the hell I wrote :-) Sorry.

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