this old porch is just a long time of waiting and forgetting

I have the benefit of a local mentor who pushes me to address considerations that I may not otherwise consider. As recently as my latest photo of Ian, he suggested that I bring out a little more detail in the area above the tree to get more depth. That suggestion came before my posting the photo here, and it was a helpful one. As experienced as I am, he saw something I had missed. Funny that! Luckily, I'm open to such commentary. He was right.

 

Jeff may, of course, do or not do what he likes. This is not a photo I would probably find myself taking (there are many photos I like that I wouldn't take myself), so it's not a matter of foisting my vision onto it. It was a matter of wondering in what ways Jeff might consider getting more out of it. Rarely have I posted a photo (there are maybe three in my portfolio) that I don't come to think I could have gotten more out of. Maybe that's what keeps driving me, as opposed to the feeling that each photo I post is somehow a masterpiece and beyond the possible improvements that others might call to my attention. You may have noticed my own self criticisms about several of my own recent photos. What the hell are we doing here, asking for critiques, if suggested improvements are going to be taken as the imposition of another's vision? From what I gather, many (supposedly) rely on PN for just the kind of feedback I'm lucky enough to get from this trusted friend. The venture of photography at our level is a balancing act between what Adan has referred to above as finding and listening to one's own voice while at the same time also learning to let go of our egos, our sense that our photos couldn't stand improvement.

 

Frankly, I'm weary of hearing again and again how everything is totally personal and how creativity means whatever any individual wants to do with a camera and in post processing. Kids with crayons are creative, after all. Then they learn to color within the lines. And only then will the good ones learn to ignore the lines and do something worthwhile. Too many of us think the first stage of coloring outside the lines is the artistic one. That's the baby stage. There's several more stages to go beyond that if you want to be any good or do anything worthwhile. And realizing that it's rare that a photo cannot be improved would be a good stage for all of us to keep in mind.

 

I can count on one hand the number of photographers on PN whose work has actually changed or deepened in the year and a half that I've been a member. Interestingly, those who have changed are the people who get into sometimes heated and sometimes personal discussions over elements of their work. The others, who continually pat each other on the back and graciously receive those same kinds of pats over and over again, are not growing. I think Jeff and I have enough respect for each other that we say what we say to each other knowing we are not simply trying to take over for the other. I always sense a genuineness from Jeff in his comments to me and I like to think that I comment to Jeff in the same genuine way, not just to get him to see things my way but to get him to take a second look at seeing them his way. Neither Jeff nor I need anyone else's help in defending our visions. But we could all use help in expanding our visions.

 

Jeff is one of the few people I bother to comment on anymore, because my time has become more limited than it had been. I bother only because of my attraction to his work and my respect for what he does. I wouldn't bother to look so carefully and make the observations I do if I didn't notice over the months that the things we say to each other and discuss seem to have an overall effect on our work. That effect may not become evident on the particular photo in question, but may come out in some elements that find their way into future creations.

 

Sorry, your post made me mad.

I'm not quite sure why you are so incensed. If I remember correctly, you yourself made an allusion that you might just be trying to change it to your vision. I also know you have warned me to be aware of that in criticism I have received from others. Of course you are right that any image could be better. Unless it is perfect, then, by definition, it could be better. Since there are damn few perfect images out there, I guess there are a lot of revisions that need to be made. You are a perfectionist (and I mean that as a compliment). I'm much less so. I don't think either one of us is necessarily wrong. My only refutation would be that we can woulda shoulda coulda ourselves to death. At what point does one's contemplation of one's navel become counter productive.?

 

I know you to be a hell of a scholar and intellect, in addition to being a perfectionist. I guess I should have left you out of it and just said it had a feeling that I thought might have flopped if attempted by many others and stated my reasons for finding it worthy.

 

I am not at all angry, but I do think you somewhat overreacted to my comment. Peace

Excellent forms, light, shadows and tones, Jeff. Very good work! Regards!

Thanks gentlemen for an invigorating read. David, I appreciate your thoughts regarding the photo. Although not perfect, it is pretty much as I wanted the end product to be. You are absolutely right that laboring and fussing over a photo usually leads to diminishing returns. There's a point where you say "enough" and move on to something else. I went in several directions here from technicolor geraniums to almost graphic B&W and settled upon this muted, toned version here. It ain't a perfect, jaw-dropper, but it ain't half bad, and I'm relatively happy with it.

 

 

That being said, I did put it up for critique rather than silently slipping it into my portfolio, as I usually do. I was hoping to gather some discussion on technique and so forth. Fred, you always rise to the challenge and offered some interesting suggestions. Usually, if I haven't done so already, I try on the suggestions for size. Sometimes the suggestions yield a paradigm shift, and I go in a different direction. Other times, they don't really float my boat. But the point for me is this. A photo isn't an end unto itself for me, it's a discussion starter. I've got a hell of a lot to learn. Thumbing through photo magazines and peering into others' portfolios is usually a humbling experience, and I come away convinced that I'm not there yet.

 

 

A hearty pat on the back is nice, but it doesn't last very long. And at times, it feels like the "reviewer" hasn't put much thought or energy into looking at a photo at all. I don't expect a lengthy review and most of my photos don't call for much of anything, but it's always nice to receive a thoughtful, constructive, and even well thought-out critical review. It shows that someone was paying attention, and it makes me feel appreciative, rather than pissed. Still, we walk a fine line as reviewers offering critiques that serve to enhance others' vision while not imposing our own. Both of you are thoughtful, well spoken, and intelligent reviewers. I always enjoy when you show up, and far be it for me to do anything to shut down the conversation.

Thank you sir. It's always nice to hear from you.

Thanks for your further thoughts.

 

I don't see my photographic endeavors as perfectionist in nature. I'd say each photograph is a new challenge for me, sometimes a renewed desire to want to explore in more depth a particular challenge I'm working out. I've never felt the time spent on a photo to be laboring or fussing. I'd describe it more as a world I allow myself to get lost in, a place I go where each new gesture, movement, gradation, is a feeling, a touching of an emotion, or on the all-important surface, a visual realization. I don't think "perfection" (I think perfection is a confused concept and a misleading one) is a realistic or even a worthwhile goal, but digging deeper is. There's nothing more exhilarating to me than facing an expressive or emotional challenge, or even working out a very practical photographic technique. That can take hours or days, but it just doesn't feel like "labor" to me. If it did, I doubt I'd do it. So, as I said on my recent photo of Ian, my challenge now is allowing the poses of my subjects to be less casual, less passive, with the right combination of "staginess" and spontaneity for various results. I'm not in search of the "perfect" pose, I'm in search of poses that work integrally and harmoniously with the stories I want to tell, the personalities I'm working with, the mood I'm after, etc.

 

My immediate reaction and desire upon reading Jeff's response to me was to come back and say, why not take up a challenge? Instead of disguising the details you've got here because including them made the image too cluttered, is there a way to include them and still avoid the cluttered feeling? Is there a way, for instance, to approach the highlights here in a manner such that the interest they hold would act as a main subject, allowing any details brought out to maintain a secondary role and not "clutter" up the photo? That's only one possible thought. There would be many ways to approach this in terms of allowing details to read yet not interfere. I felt David's comment immediately serve to stifle that comeback I had in mind, but I won't allow it to. I know that Jeff will decide where to put that sort of challenge, and I don't think he needs to address it if he feels disinclined, nevertheless I think it's worthwhile putting it out there, if even it gives someone else an inclination of how a photo can be approached.

 

My experience has been that complete self challenge is difficult. Others may do a better job of self-challenging. I don't know. It's been very helpful to me to have various pairs (one dedicated and usually coming prior to others) of eyes challenging me as I go along. The challenge has been not to change my viewpoint or expression to suit theirs, but to expand, enhance, and deepen my own viewpoint and expression. The one thing said to me most often about specific photos, especially in the period which I consider to have come late last year and earlier this year, is "now make it yours, just take it further, keep going with it."

 

I'll leave you both with the thought that I think the most insightful criticism we can levy at each other is not that we are too fussy or take too much time with each photo. It's precisely the opposite. A lot of the photos we run across stop just about where they should begin or at least somewhat short of where they could be. The idea of critiquing would be, at that point, to lay down some artistic and/or technical challenges. That rarely happens.

I appreciate you returning to this photo to add some additional thoughts. I'll add mine as well. I think each person brings their own motivation, energy, and personality to the creative process, approaching photography in different ways and taking from it different things. My natural inclination is to fuss and fret about the details, so much so that along the way I stop being creative and start being counterproductive. An outside pair of eyes, looking in at my work, may reinvigorate the process, which is why I appreciate your (and others') comments and suggestions about going in a different direction. Still, I get to the point where I feel I have to let a photo go and move onto to something else, at least for the time being. Occasionally, I'll go back and revisit what I've done, sometimes with a fresh perspective and new skills to accomplish something different.

 

 

Right now, photography meets a need for me as one of the few ways I can express myself, mostly because if I'm interrupted, I can hit "save" and there are no supplies to put away. I've also discovered some fantastic folks on PN and other places whose ideas and viewpoint and wit add considerably to the creative process.

 

 

As I mentioned, I don't dismiss any suggestion, and I always try them out unless I've already done so prior to posting. I consider these suggestions as a sign of respect and investment in someone else's art, so keep them coming.

I've not been around much lately but I am happy to have stopped by to catch this image and the ensuing exchanges. Your social graces are matched by your creativity. I often find myself in awe of both.

 

In this instance I do understand what Fred is seeing in the potential for this image however I feel satisfied with the scene as it stands. The brickwork is just obvious enough to be there, if I look for it, but is secondary enough to avoid competing with the compositional strength of the double spindle repeating motif. The subject matter may be cliche but your treatment of it certainly is not.

 

I have to comment, that I have often offered up critical comments on aspects of your images that did not work for me and the fact that you are always so open and willing to give consideration, while remaining dedicated to your own vision, is in some part why I continue to follow your work. Those who do not hesitated to both offer and receive constructive and sometimes contrary opinion, end up richer for the experience. I have only been around this joint for a year but I concur with Fred that I have seen leaps and bounds in some peoples developement and they are always the ones who engage in honest dialogue.

Well, when responding to criticism, it's hard to strike a balance between being immovable and stubborn and being a leaf blown about in the wind. I'm always amazed with how angry people get over photos--absolute venom over 3/3's and digitized screaming over a bad review. Yikes. If people have the capacity to get so worked up and upset over a photo, no wonder the world's in perpetual crisis. I don't entirely understand how someone can become so pissed over an opinion, as if you hit 'em dead in the face or something.

 

 

So, thanks for such a nice comment. I'm always happy to hear your thoughts because you do take such time and care in what you say (as does Fred, Jack, David, and so many others).

Dear Jeff, thanks for you interest on my "...it's for you,...Adam" and for geving me the possibility to know you and your job,...really a very interesting and nice job!...This in particular, is a wonderful B/W,...just from a master, like you are!...I have also seen a lot of words on your shot: I'm sorry, but my English it's not so good and fluent for a so reach conversation!...But I hope, however, to have also you among my PN friends! For the moment:...Ciaomau!

 

 

 

 

A late thank-you for your kind words and thoughts. I appreciate it!

Not sure why, but this image makes want to go sit on my deck and enjoy the evening shade. Pretty powerful stuff. : - D

 

 

Love the play of light and shadows. The image is "cool" on the eye. Very well seen.

 

Cheers,

 

-Ade

Excellent light and detail.Regards and thank you Jeff.

.... And the sound of the grasshoppers while they play their violins at the dim light of the warm southern evening... The squals of the cranky door when the worn but tough lady of the house invite`s the grandpa and the children into the supper. This is like the meeting of the Walton`s family and the modern times...

 

When returning from the mind journey to the past, I see my monitor and hear the humming of the coolers inside of my computer. Boring stuff!

 

This image, full of play with the light and dark, is also touching deeply into the longing for the more peaceful times. This also touches at the level of the architectural viewing. The hand carved parts of the porch are something that one rarely sees in the modern factory pre-built houses.

 

Lovely and moody capture!

 

Alpo

Ade: As I recall, this was a cooler summer day, making for a very enjoyable walk. The last vestiges of the afternoon sun made for some interesting shadows. Thanks.

 

 

Janusz: Thanks so much. Always a pleasure.

 

 

Alpo: As you know from your profession (and me from mine), the world is searching for inner peace, and I think scenes that demonstrate a fleeting moment of stillness and presence always have a calling.

So true, Jeff!

7/7, fine work, like it a lot.

beautiful light and shadows. and the tone is gorgeous. good mood. it seems that something was going to happen after a summer breeze. regards.

Thanks both of you for such nice comments. Peace.

This is very nice.

Nice pretty tight crop and lovely shadows. Very good light.

Rgs Emilia :)

I'm glad you like this one.

A wonderful study of light and shadows! Very beautifully done with great tones and presented with presence...nostalgia clearly speaks. Thank you for sharing. :)