WHEN TREE MEETS CAR

You've made a compelling point and you've done so gracefully. Your second comment adds a dimension that I didn't get from your first and has gotten me to think about the tree itself on a different level. Thanks. I think we still disagree on the tone of the comments about David's other photo, and that's just the way it is. :) --Fred

Came late to the interesting discussion,( just came back from Spain). When I saw it for the first time before reading ,I wondered what does it means. So I first agree with Ton, that cultures are different and therefor viewers are not always open to the local culture nuances especially foreigners( like me as an example). What Fred understood in the HOMAGE of yours David, I looked at it as an irony of the consumer American society and completely looked at it in a different way from what Fred saw in it. what you saw in the children with masks of Jack's I understood different from you, being in japan, I wonder and would like to have your explanation why it was so irritating in your eyes, that was not in mine.?

 

The way trees are used as kind of a memorial monument is bizarre for me. With all the wars and car accidents in my country I never experienced this way of a memorial( on trees) I did saw ads on trees in Israel to sell a house....or looking for work... It is taken out by the municipality workers, as trees are not a " notice boards". I saw on canyons of beautiful natural rocks in many places in the world all sorts of graffiti done on thousandth years of rocks formation , a stonecutting heart, and an address I x love y, or I ( name) was here.... terrible vandalizm ! And other graffiti in other places that kept their natural form as they were formed by nature for us human being.

 

I know what is done in my culture as a memorial for the bereaved families. If it is done publicly, it is to help society, a library, books of poetry, exhibition of paintings, other helps for community. A torah book to a synagogue. So I agree with Linda and you David , that nature is not exactly the right place to use for expressing grief and pain, that I'm sure is present in the families and groups done it. The tree has its own life and right to keep its form as nature destined it to be. I came as Ton from the medical world, I know how hard is death for a family especially unexpected, and I understand the need for a memorial. I think there are many ways to do a memorial and let the nature intact for all of us to enjoy.

 

Graffiti, is a common phenomenon, I agree with Fred that it adds some colors to the concreted cities, and some joy of skilled street artist, but the context is very important, as it is not always done in good intention. I will finish with an example I have found 3 days ago while visiting Toledo.

First, I imagine that there is a significant difference in how death and memorials are handled in your country and mine. Of course I've never been to Israel, so I might be quite mistaken. But it seems to me that Israelis live closer to random death and destruction than we have had to on our little island paradise. Random violent deaths being much more common in your country, I don't think your people respond with such maudlin and irrational efforts. It seems that in your country they simply suck it up and retaliate when possible, show no fear to it happening again, and defy those who would do such acts to take their best shots. Please understand that I admittedly am speaking from complete ignorance. Merely impression. So, perhaps you will have no understanding of these types of monuments that have spread all over the countryside and even in urban areas in the USA.

 

As for Jack's picture, it deeply saddened me. I guess the masks that those little children were wearing was to ward off pollution. Is it not pathetic to see little kids having to wear masks because we have fouled the air with our own effluents? What happened to the carefree nature of being a child? Now they can't breathe the air, can't talk to strangers, and can't be left to roam and explore. That is what that represented so very well to me. Everyone else seemed to treat it as if they were wearing some Holloween mask or something and had no thought to what was being represented. Well, we all can interpret these things in various ways, and that's just fine. But sometimes I tire of the superficial nature we sometimes adopt on Pnet (and everywhere else for that matter) in looking at the truly meaningful lives, landscapes, and events that are being depicted.

 

Occasionally some really thought provoking commentary is made, such as has occurred here on this image, but it is unusual that we address content in any serious manner. So, thank you for taking the time to follow some of the commentary and adding your own. Peace

no big deal, but would you exclude me from "everyone else" in the above statement. I think I gave a statement to that effect on Jack's photo. Have to sign off now since I'm in transit

My apologies. There were one or two people who leaned the way I did, and you obviously were one of them. As I said, that image had a really profound message to me, and to so many others it was just humor.

Thanks for your answer, that is exactly the point I wanted to express, the difference of culture and life of the people writing and commenting on different photos, that belongs to different places they are raised and living in, and especially language barriers! . But we are the same human being, David

I can tell you that we have the same reactions , feelings and maudlin toward death, that is so close to our everyday life, on the contrary we are much more sensible to death and life, and therefor this kind of memorial was bizarre to me.

 

About Jack's children photo, I'm sensible to the polution and what happens to our glob, exactly like you( and I'm active in helping elliminate as much as possible the damages), but being in Japan! masks, school uniform,and rigid life custom are very much a part of Japanese culture and sometimes too much for one that comes from the Western kind of life style.

There is something funny in the children uniform, especially the hats, they look like children in grown up cloths. To explain other way of thinking and feelings, to explain differences, I find that words can do it. I'm sorry that it does not work with all the people, even in this and other threads .

 

Anyway, I appreciate your answer.

I've emailed you a response to some of your thoughts, and thank you again for them. Yes, culture is different everywhere you go, and we must be sensitive to that, and the sense of humor certainly varies from one part of the world to another. I scoff at religion and someone else may shrug off global warming and be religious. I am long past the point where I worry about myself, but I do worry about my progeny and the mark I have left behind. Take care.

Well you have certainly stirred up a lively conversation with this one. I have just finished trudging through the commentary and there is much to consider of what has been said.

 

I agree with Linda that this poor tree, which incidentally is our best first line of defense against poisoning from exhaust fumes, has indeed suffered a further indignity. Someone commented on the tree being ugly. All of the sucker growth at the bottom is the tree's attempts to start anew, after the severe damaged incurred by the collision. The people maintaining the memorial are hacking down the trees last chance at renewal because it interferes with there public display of grief. The obvious oversight there being that after they kill the tree they will no longer have anything to nail their cross and ribbons to.

 

I believe the purpose for graveyards is to establish memorials for the deceased and the purpose for highways is quite different. A few years back a man riding a motor bike went off the road and died at a local intersection. As much as I feel sorrow for the loss his family has incurred, every time I stop at that intersection and see that roadside memorial, I relate to it as an unwelcome intrusion upon my landscape. I did not know this man. I would not visit his grave site, so I do not feel it is appropriate that I am now obliged to view his memorial each time I drive to town.

 

You have as usual, capture an interesting slice of America and presented it in a creative fashion.

How nice to have you weigh in on this one. I'm always interested in your measured and erudite thoughts. I have to say, much to Fred's displeasure that I agree with you. Fred's primary concern (if I may be so bold as to give my interpretation) was the lack of respect some of us showed the deceased. I'll admit to being somewhat callous to the concept of death. Everyone is welcome to come out and piss on my grave if they want. Actually, I don't intend to have a grave, but I'll use that as a metaphor. My death will be a tragedy to some, but the rest of the world will go blissfully forward in its folly without me. Hell yes I'm afraid of death. So sometimes I laugh at it and scorn its impact (no pun intended).

 

 

we have this practice here as well...sad end...your direct/straight approach without artifice is full of respect and simplicity which is the most powerful way I believe....

I've just been commenting on your marvelous new posts. Thanks for taking a look.

The truth for me is...maybe if we put one of these roadside memorials up for every single person who died in a war somewhere on this planet maybe it could help stop the killing...

 

Maybe we should concerned ourselves with things a little more important than flowers and balloons on the side of the road...as we speed along in the gas guzzling machines that continue to support the companies that are getting rich off the dead men, women and children who fight for our right to whine about roadside memorials...

 

Maybe every city should have at least...oh several thousand memorials along it's streets to remind us to do whatever we can to end the killing...

 

It's nice that we can rant about the disgusting memorials on the side of the roads...must be because we have so much time to do so...

 

I too have given my 2 cents...but I guess I'll be the first to critique the image...for 2 more cents...

 

To me it looks like you slammed on your brakes and jumped out to grab a snap of this memorial...Besides the horizon looking tilted...and it needing some sharpening...

 

It has the impression that the you gave this memorial the same amount of honoring in making the image as you did in post processing...Perhaps this image would work better as Black and White...? I have seen better from you...

Sorry if I have been too honest...you know that's all I know...WVMM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, I was wondering when I 'd get blasted for that damn horizon. And, no it is not a very good image. I've done better for sure. And I love your description of how I probably took the pic. It's pretty much right on. I guess you know me. It's just a commentary. Nothing more. Some people agreed with me and some not. For a lousy pic though, it sure brought some stellar comments. So I don't think it was all a waste of time. Speaking of wasting time, how is it that you had enough time to wade through all that commentary?

 

If the current rate of erection (of the monuments, pervert) continues, we shall have them wall to wall no matter where we are. My theory is that this is simply emblematic of our form over substance society. Instead of doing something that actually has value, we do something that has the mere appearance of thought, in the hopes that it will pass as real activity. Might it not have been better for the people who placed this work on the tree to have dedicated themselves for an hour or two to pick up trash or help a homeless person or something that might have served to enhance human existence? Well, certainly in my mind the answer is yes.

 

But hey, pendejo, while you were getting all critical on me, you didn't mention that white line bottom left that came to be because I rotated the image a bit and then did a sloppy crop.

 

As far as your being the tough critic, I love your honesty, I love your comments, and I even love you (although sometimes that's a bit difficult). Hope you are making some good images up there somewhere in the middle of Montana.

One part of Juan's rant that I agree with is that the world needs more action, the part I do not agree with is that the world needs more memorials. The effect of throwing up memorials all over the place is to diminish there impact to the point were comfortable, lazy people (only talking about myself here ) with too much spare time wind up not tasking them seriously :)

 

Now if each time someone smashed into a tree, their family went out to plant another tree, rather than trying to finish off the one that got hit, they would actually be doing something of use.

I think Juan was being facetious, but knowing a bit about the boy (he hosted me for a week in his home, which is why he has good reason to dislike me now) one can never know where the hell he is coming from. (In polite company they call that being "mercurial," but in Juan's case, it just being a loose cannon. lol

 

I still get a kick out of the fact that such a mediocre image can attract such stimulating conversation from such brilliant folk.

Ditto! all your comment! And Especially the last one!

 

 

(Juan, it is not going to work many of them...;-))

 

 

First...My point is that we are spending too much time blathering about memorials...obviously there are to many now...if there were more...I can only imagine the amount of whining about the balloons and flowers on the side of the roads....Oh...not to mention all the people who may have lost a loved one....

It is too obvious with all the famous cemeteries around the world...that we as human are not very quick to figure out some of our sick patterns...

 

My question is... are there really soooo many of these roadside memorials to cause a whine a-thon about them? I realize I now have been sucked into this vortex....!? I live in a state that only recently started to have speed limits on our highways...I see crosses/memorials everyday...they remind me to slow down and to look out for those who don't...One memorial is of a friend who lost his mother a brother and two sisters all in one moment because ofsomeone else's carelessness......

 

 

Yes Gordon...tree planting is a good response...it is only the first step...as is addressing most social concerns... there are many steps to cure our ills. I know of about a couple of million clear cut acres between the west coast and here in Montana that could use some re-planting...!

 

I think the first step that comes to my mind is...getting David to stop trying to convince me that I dislike him...He really is not a bad guy...in fact we know that as far as grandpas go he is probably one of the best...

 

Perhaps... David could be a little less Falkeinstienish...I think it's good to be aware and point out social concerns...maybe a little more focus on technical..and let his his camera do a little more speaking...

 

Don't get me wrong...I believe that a snap shot is to a "Quickie" as what a well made photo is to making love...there is a time for both...and both are equally important in our creativity...

 

Mercurial...? WTF...? Loose 'Canon'..... I can own both...That I am one...and that I shoot one...Now can we start talking about something else? Peace...juan...aka WVMM

That Falkenstien one really hurt. Touche!!

Word for word, you've done more whining about the whining than most of the whiners. Kinda makes you wonder just who has too much spare time?

 

BTW after reading your post in the CC forum a few days back I have been, for the first time, rummaging around in your portfolio, yeah that was me making all that noise flipping pages. I figure a guy with such beautiful dogs and who takes such amazing photographs must not be a half bad sort.

He just talks bad. He's really a big ole softy pussycat, unless your name is John F----------. lol

I was starting to wonder if maybe I'm supposed to sell my camera, donate the money to charity, give up all hobbies, and get my ass to volunteer in a soup kitchen pronto. :) Most times, we're only familiar with a small fraction of what people we don't know do with their time. People who put up monuments might do it quickly, getting back to their community service the minute they're done nailing the cross to the tree. On the other hand, people who work in soup kitchens might be going home and abusing their children. Unfortunately, human nature is not terribly cut and dry.

 

Even photographers and artists make important contributions to the fabric of humanity (if only by amusing themselves and keeping themselves busy enough not to be getting into trouble), though Mother Teresas they are not. Plumbers aren't exactly the most revered people in the world in terms of their selfless acts as plumbers, but I hate to think where we'd be without them. There are lots of ways to contribute.

 

I do agree with Juan on an important photographic matter regarding this image and others of David's:

 

". . . and let his camera do a little more speaking."

 

I think David has a lot to say and a lot to say that needs saying. Maybe I'm biased because I agree with most of what David has to say. I think something we might fruitfully discuss is whether David is making photographic commitments with his images or is being more demur. David, you were surprised that I called your work objective and you don't see yourself that way. To me, that difference in our perspectives is worth more thought and talk. I know you're not objective and I know you have strong opinions. But, to me, those come out more in your discussions than in your images. Even the current one could be taken in a neutral and "presentational" manner. What would an image of this tree look like that actually expressed disdain? Do you think it already does? What do Juan and Gordon and others think? Would that be a photographic challenge here? Most of us assumed you had some sort of negative feeling about this "monument" and you know you had it. Is that translated visually somewhere in the photo itself?

 

And I don't think that a photo like this HAS TO take some sort of stand. Personal "presentations," presentations that get to the heart of the matter, can be very moving photos as well.

When I first looked at this image, before reading the extensive commentary which was already present when I chimed in, I took this image as an objectively matter of fact presentation of something that caught David's eye. I had an immediate negative response to the subject matter but did not feel that David was trying to steer my emotions with his approach to the shot. The fact that David chooses to shot the subjects which he selects is a statement in itself, however I usually get the impression from David's photography that he is presenting us with images extracted from the ordinary madness of day to day life without embellishment, allowing us to reach our own conclusions. To me that is part of the charm and skill of David's artistic statement. When I look at David's photos I do not get my panties in a wad if his horizon is not straight or an occasional highlight is blown or whatever. These are not studio still life images or classic landscape photos. They are David's fascinating take on his corner of the world taken in his own unique style and I think it is important to view them within that context.

As usual I digress. Back on point, I did not get the impression David was trying to sway my mind with his presentation. After reading David's comments his feelings on these memorials becomes quite clear :)

I think both of you know that I normally do not take a photo unless I'm amused or disgusted with the subject matter, or emotionally involved (grandkids). The fact that it sometimes does not get translated is most interesting. It gives me something to think about.

 

In this case, Fred, you are quite right that one would not necessarily view it as a negative or a positive. I can see how someone might look at it and think it was a poignant reminder of the random tragedy that befalls our existence. Not amusing, and not disdainful. I suppose that even though I have made it clear that I do not approve of such displays by my words, that one could at the very least say that I took it because I'm interested in the forms these memorials take. That would be true. I can't tell you how many times I've stopped and looked at the contents of the roadside memorial. Sometimes I take photos, others times I don't.

 

Someday I'd like to learn to take images just because they are good. For instance portraits. I'm not really able at this time to take a good portrait. Just haven't been able to get to where you are Fred (not sure about you, Gord, when it comes to portraits, I mean). Portraits seem to me to offer more neutrality. Going the other way and doing scenics is the opposite. It would be hard to form a negative reaction to almost any Ansel Adams landscape. So I've been pushed into a whole other way of looking at how I go about making my images. One thing that is not likely to happen is that I do not see myself becoming technically skilled. Don't want to, don't need to. And even if I wanted to I don't think I've got enough brains or time to do it.

 

And, Fred I'm intrigued with your challenge. I've always kind of assumed that others would know my opinion by seeing my images. Perhaps I've assumed too much. I will have to examine that concept much more closely. Thank you for putting it on the table.

". . . learn to take images just because they are good. For instance portraits."

 

Can you elaborate a little here. I'm not understanding. What do you mean when talking about an image you would take just because it is good, and how would that relate to portraits?

 

"Portraits seem to me to offer more neutrality. Going the other way and doing scenics is the opposite."

 

Not sure what you mean by the "neutrality" of portraits and how that differs from how you understand scenics.

Okay, I'll try to explain what I so poorly said. When I look at a portrait, if it is a good one, it does not matter if I know the person or not, it does not matter if it is a good person or not. A good portrait makes you think you know something about the subject (doesn't matter how far wrong you are). So there is only the question of technical competence, e.g., cluttered background, blown highlights, which may or may not be intentional, cropping, etc. So, if you have the magic of a good portrait, it is beyond the point of subject matter. If it is done well, you have to react (so I think). On the other hand, if you come across a beautiful scenic, there is little interpretation. It's just there. Sure you can marvel at God's creation or mother nature or whatever. But it's damn hard to have a negative reaction. Now, on the other hand, take http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=5718633

Totally neutral in my mind. Could go either way.

 

Or this: http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=5146653

 

If you don't look at the title, what conclusions might one draw from it?

 

I don't know if I've made myself any clearer or not. Sometimes when I'm "talking" with you I feel like I'm painting myself into a corner. Perhaps the case here.