Panoramic photography advice

[ken davis]

Hi folks,

 

I'm getting ready to embark on a new world...panoramic photography.

A lot of this is due to my wife's interest in this as well, so we're

looking at this as a joint investment rather than my usual

selfishness.

 

I'm looking at several possibilities, and I'm hoping someone here

can offer some insight.

 

First, there's the high end Linhof Technorama, the Fuji G617, and

other 6x17cm full panoramic cameras that are very expensive. These

use 120 film and view camera quality lenses that are very precise

and very expensive, the probably deliver the highest in quality.

 

Second, there's the rotating drum panoramic cameras such as the

Noblex and other types. There are 120 and 35mm format versions of

these cameras. They use a fixed lens that and a rotating drum with

a slit in it. The slit allows light to pass through to the lens,

and then eventally to the film.

 

Third, there's the Fuji TX-1 and Hasselblad Xpan and XpanII which

use 35mm film and can switch between 35mm single frame and panoramic

mode. The camera has three available lenses and various other

accessories.

 

Fourth, there's panoramic masks for my 6x6 Hasselblad and a 6x17

mask for my 4x5.

 

And, of course, as I'm sure there's several of you chomping at the

bit to tell me, the digital world of stitching several images

together in Photoshop and the related equipment to scan or digitally

record the images, the computer equipment and software, and the know

how.

 

I've established my own pros and cons on each of these, but most of

that is from reading and a recent rental of one of the above

solutions. Without putting my own two cents in, I'm asking for any

relative experience anyone has including the usability of the

equipment, available processing of film, scanning, likes and

dislikes, etc. I'm getting ready to make a fairly sizeable

investment and I'm Turing to the experts here for some advice.

 

Oh, and one more thing. Are there others that are interested in

this enough that we could make a separate panorama forum?

 

Thanks for your help!!!

 

Ken

[mendonphoto]

Stitching digital files together will drive you crazy. It's no solution for somebody serious about panoramas.

[ken davis]

Thanks, Aaron. That was kind of my take on it, but I wanted to hear it from someone else too!

 

K

[neal_shields]

http://truckgenerator.com/subdomain/sueandneal/panaramas.htm

 

I have an old Panon which was the progenitor of the Widelux. It is a swing lens 140 degree field of view.

 

Most of the pictures on my page were taken with it. You can minimize the "cigar" effect by only shooting at a 45 degree angle or less to your subject or you can shoot stright on and "go with it" as I have done in some of these shots.

 

If you define "panorama" as field of view instead of aspect ratio, you are stuck with the cameras that you mention. My Panon has a 50mm lens and paints a 140 degree field of view. It is also very wide vertically for 120 film.

 

However, I don't think you can get compulsive sharpness with a moving lens. Some vibration must be transmitted to the body. Also a 1/200 of a second exposure takes about 1 second to make and a 1/50 exposure takes about two or three seconds.

 

A friend of mine just got a Fuji 6x17 and I think with a blank sheet of paper doing what you are doing that is the way I would go.

 

I also make "panoramas" by using half slides on my 4x5 and 8x10.

 

In one case I put my 90mm Super Angulon (designed for 4x5) on my 8x10 and got a round picture with about a 100 degree field of view.

 

I had intended to crop it to 3x8 but decided that I liked it in the round better.

 

Before you give up on stitching have a look at this site which I think is too cool

 

http://geoimages.berkeley.edu/wwp.html

[leslie_cheung]

You think you need to narrow it down to

 

1. landscape (still things) or people (doc / moving things)

 

2. swing or not

 

3. final print size ratio and output method

(if you are not printing it yourself, lab fees will be the bulk of the

cost for panos imo)

[paul.droluk]

Hi Ken, are you aware of our camera.. the Fotoman 617? It uses many standard large

format lenses from Schneider's 72XL to Fuji's T300. At $1600 for a complete camera less

lens (Body, Cone, matching Helical Focus Mount and Finder) it is a more versatile and more

competetive alternative to the high priced spread. CNC machined from a solid billet of

T6000 series aluminum, we joke that it's the only camera you could use in a bar fight...

and take pictures of the aftermath. Several Fuji and Linhof users have purchased one...

most notably Ross Wordhouse, a dedicated professional pano shooter. Search the MF & LF

forums for threads, and of course our website (www.fotomancamera.com). And a BIG YES

to the creation of a Panoramic Forum. We get ton's of email's... there's a lot of interest.

[John Crowe]

I have considered the panorama idea and often try compositions that could work. My concern is that I see it often being used when it should not be. Personally I think you would be better off going for a flexible system that will allow you to create images in many different styles. You can get a 6x15 format on a sheet of 4x5 film or at 5x14 (same proportion as 6x17) you would have a little room for finely tuning the composition after the exposure. That way you can do panoramic images at many different focal lengths from extreme wideangle to telephoto. With respect to original image size you are not giving up much to the 6x17 format. You have the flexibility to work with different films very easily and you can work sheet by sheet rather than depending on roll by roll shooting and processing. Why limit yourself, when the alternatives don't seem to justify themselves.

 

 

Just a few of my thoughts. Make of them what you will.

[majid]

To get an idea of the trade-offs, get the book "Stretch" published by Rotovision.

<p>

I have a G617 (the fixed-lens precursor to the GX617). It has an amazing lens, but it is really a camera meant for use on a tripod. If you want a more casual, hand-held style, a X-Pan would be more appropriate. Then again, you could just crop a 6x6 or 6x7 frame (e.g. Mamiya 7II with a 43mm Biogon) to get the same results.

<p>

Don't belittle stitching. If you live in the San Francisco Bay Area, visit the <a href="http://www.vistapointstudio.com/">Vista Point Studio</a> one of these days. Huge panoramic prints made by stitching in Photoshop (without any special software like Panorama Tools) frames taken using digital backs on a Hasselblad with the 100mm Planar.

<p>If you are interested in a G617, contact me by email. I am thinking of selling mine as I don't get enough use out of it.

[runkel]

Of course the images from a rotating lens camera are qualitatively different from those produced by a fixed-lens panoramic camera or cropping. The moving lens yields a wider angle of view than the widest fixed lens, but does so by exposing each part of the film with the central image from a well-corrected normal lens. With a wide-angle lens, resolution decreases toward the extreme edges of the frame, but a rotating-lens negative does not have "edges" in an optical sense. And the simple normal lens on a rotating-lens camera is not pushing the limits of optical design like a seriously wide-angle lens must. Thus, the Noblex in particular has a reputation for images with remarkable sharpness across the entire frame. I beleive the lens does a "warm up run" to get up to constant speed before actually making the exposure, and this may help explain why the vibrations Neal posits are not a problem in practice.

 

I would expect to use a tripod almost always for serious panoramic photography because of the need to keep the camera precisely level when using wide-angle or moving lenses. Also, if you need to use a center filter to compensate for light fall-off when using a fixed wide-angle lens, that will lenghten your exposure times. The rotating-lens camera won't require a center filter.

 

I have no experience using any of the cameras you mention, but in your positon I would really consider something like a Noblex because it gives you images that can't be obtained any other way. However, it's obviously a special purpose camera that takes one type of picture. I imagine the learning curve for a Noblex is steeper and that minimizing the "cigar" effect may require care in subject selection.

[nick_evans1]

Hi

 

I use a Hassleblad X-Pan1 camera which I love and it produces some brillant pictures. I always shoot slide film (I prefer it) and I scan my images. I use the 45mm and the 90mm lens (30mm is too expensive) and shoot generally with the the lens stopped down to F8. The big advantage for me is that you can flick between 35mm and panoramic depending on the picture you are taking.

 

I f you are interested in the X-Pan then I would go for the newer Series II as it has some nice features on it which are missing from the first one (might have to trade mine)

 

The scanner I have will only do 35mm so I scan in two halfs then stich. Photoshop CS has a really great automaic stiching tool which works a treat. So long as you have set your workspace up then it really is not much of a problem.

 

HTH

 

Nick

[jo_irps]

I second what Matthew has said before, but want to add that to make good panoramic photos of a great vareity you need more than one camera. Each system, rotating or fixed lens, has a special field of application and has limitations.

 

To work with a Noblex in landscape for example, the horizon has to be in the middle of the frame in order to cancel out a bend horizon, but otherwise this can always be corrected by special programms. Buildings can have the cigar effect if shot straight from the front, in this case a fixed lens camera can do much better.

 

Two invest in one or two cameras, you have to decide which film format you want to use. This is in relation to what print size you want to go, and hence which scanner type is neccessary. For the 120 format film and a frame size of 6x17 only a flat bed scanner will do. For 35mm film and a frame size of 24x66 you can either use a dedicated 35mm film scanner and stitch two halfs, or you can use a MF film scanner for 120 format which scans up to the size of 60x90mm (56x87 to be precise). The results from a dedicated film scanner gives you much better resolution and therefore can print much bigger. This is not to say that you can print bigger as from scans of a flat bed, but the max practical resolution of a flat bed is less than maybe 50% of a film scanner. If you are going to send out for a drum scan or a Imacon, than there is no limit for a 6x17 format. But you get huge file sizes und you need at least 2GB Ram for post production.

 

I work with two cameras, the Noblex 135 which I love for its precision of/and the reproduction of an almost 140 degree viewangle. My second camera is a homebrew (converted 6x9 folder) cropped to 4.5x9 with a Schneider SA 47mm (looks like the Veriwide). I can crop further to a bigger ratio and keep the 90mm horizontal lenght which is more real estate as the Xpan can give me. I have a MF film scanner which covers all kind of formats I am using including 35mm and some more 6x9 cameras I have.

 

To sum up: your choice is betwenn a 120 Noblex and a 6x17 (I recommend the Fotoman) with a flat bed scanner, or a 135 Noblex and a Xpan with a MF film scanner.

 

Jo

[awindsor]

My film panoramas are not extremely wide and are produced by cropping 6x6 images from my SQ-Ai. This has the advantage of still being easily portable. These are panoramas in the sense of format since they don't take in a very wide perspective (my widest lens is a 50mm).<P>

 

I also composite digital images. In this way I can get both rectilinear extreme wide angle images and cylindrical projections like a Nobilex. I currently use the extremely cheap and extremely light Panosaurus panoramic tripod head. <P>

 

Check out <A HREF="http://www.tawbaware.com/maxlyons">Max Lyons'</A> site to see what can be accomplished using the compositing technique.

[steve_swinehart]

I have a 6x12 with a 45mm lens giving a 110 degree FOV, and have made panoramic style photos by cropping my 4x5. I have also used panoramic software to make a 5 shot panorama from five 6x6 images.

 

Here's what I've found:

 

The least expensive and most flexible way to do panoramas is using a 4x5 and cropping. If you use something like a Speed Graphic or Crown Graphic, you can even hand-hold the camera. Making a single shot allows you to get images with moving objects, changing conditions, etc. This feature also applies to 6x12 or 6x17.

 

The 6x12 is good for very wide angle shots and can be hand-held. However, you must be careful as to making sure the camera is level to avoid distortion from the lens curvature. Tilting up or down will distort the image unless you are shooting a vertical format.

 

The panorama software was really quite easy to use and made a stunning image. The drawback is that in making the multiple exposures, you must carefully level the camera and if you are not shooting subjects at infinity, a panorama head that rotates the camera at the len's front nodal point is must. Also, if you have moving objects or changing conditions, stitching is not a very good answer.

[wyverndude]

First: What Steve and John said. :)

<P>

And... you left out the Horseman SW612, and SW612Pro

<P>

I have had an interest in panoramic images for some time, and looked into many options.

I have a Horizon-202 which I've been pretty happy with; but (like any swing-lens) it runs into the limitations of the design: requiring the camera to be level to avoid pretty dramatic distortion.

<P>

What I really wanted was extreme wide angle, with view camera movements, so I made my own camera <a href="http://www.photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=384691"><u>(see my portfolio)</u></a>.

But anything is a compromise.

<P>

I consider the camera I made for myself as no-compromises... because speed of use and portability ranked very low in importance to image quality and control. Your compromise will likely take different factors into consideration: the cameras you mention cover polar opposites of format size vs. portability. What you ultimately decide is most important to you will make some of the cameras you mention unacceptable... at least in some applications. Which may require you to buy more than one :)

<P>

The least-investment approach will be to mask your 4X5 view camera to (approximately) 6X12 -or simply crop your images that way. (There's also 6X12 120 rollfilm backs that will fit your view camera, but they're not cheap).

<P>

You might want to play with that for awhile, to find what direction you want to go, and the relative importance of which feature you would choose to compromise for another: Wider? More portable? Lower per-print cost? Faster use?

[rayfraser]

Here is an example from insomniac40 of Linux-Hacker 1 2 many 4 all threads:

 

<a href="http://www.photo.net/photo/3026862">merger of four images together in photoshop elements</a>.<p><p>

 

quoting insomniac "Nothing fancy. Just stood there and took photos as I scanned the field and merged them together. It would have come out a lot better with tripod and shutting the flash off. There is always next time now that this camera is multi-use."

[rayfraser]

I have now also created a simple panoramic using a cheap CVS Blue camera: <a href="http://www.photo.net/photo/3039963">Metro Beach Panoramic</a><p>

Not very good, but not bad for a first time effort.

[3d-aeropanoramic project]

on my rotating panoramic camera-only forum there are links to discussion-groups. there are more around(not listed). pls ask the people in the lists.

http://login.prospero.com/dir-login/index.asp?webtag=pancams&lgnDST=http%3A%2F%2Fforums%2Edelphiforums%2Ecom%2Fpancams%2Fstart

deep insight of horizon-panoramic cameras.

i have also roundshot 65/70/220 with shift. very limited and heavy.

if you have money you should eighter buy a used roundshot 220vr or the smaller roundshot super 35.(worlds best rotapancams beside super 70) super 35 can be converted or built as 35mm -film unperforated version(more image height).

if you want universal rotapancam with changing lens and shift, buy cheap lookaround(search with google). i have a testcam. negatives from the constructor are razorsharp. i will use 18,24,28,35 and 45mm lenses. perforated and unperforated film. you will need training to run handdriven camera. but its perfectly working. no more mess with electronics. you can develop film on the road in every lab.

if you need more hints for other camera-design ask me at europanorama at arcor.de

keep in mind: all the horizon or noblex 35mm cameras have wideangles.

shift in noblex is too limited. but sometimes enough. new horizon s3-pro would be a good choice. if only i hadnt a problem with unsharp image at fstop 16. a friend will test his camera. if he has the same problem then i would not recommend it.

for landscapes you will need normal to longer lens. check all the boring panoramic landscapes made with wideangles then you will understand. i have seen landscapes of asia shot with 125mm lens on 120/220(60mm)-camera. imagine these made with 50mm-wideangle. background objects are simply too small. in addition the foreground-background-relation(i dont know the right term) is better with a longer lens. any 6x12 or 6x17 with shift-mechanism is highly recommended. if you will invest in a version without you will soon miss it. filmflatness is another issue which the fotomancamera must prove. unfortunately i had no time visiting them at photokina.

if you need more tips pls ask me at europanorama at arcor.de

forget any widelux-even free of charge-endless troubles-forget ancient 120 ones like panopic/panon 120(no coating, huge refexions!)-the ones with hexanon 50mm.

michael przewrocki

http://www.3dpanimages.tk

25 years in rotating panoramic camera-world

[3d-aeropanoramic project]

a good idea is using one of the special shiftadapters from http://www.zoerk.com to use mf-lenses like pentacon six/kiev-lenses on 35mm cameras. shift left-shift right and stitch the parts. wow! with http://www.autostich.net software and other one mentioned here http://www.panoguide.com you can even make mosaics with huge informations.

[bailie photography]

hi all,

<p>

The option of stitching is not all that bad. Firstly, please visit my <a href="http://members.optusnet.com.au/kimyan/bailie/landscape/main.htm"> portfolio.</a> All were taken with my D70 and stitched.

<p>

I have yet to get these printed but I suspect should be ok. My interest is really to get up to 40" prints and I don't think my D70 is good enough for that at 300dpi. But I'm considering getting a 1ds(mkII) and hopefully will be good enough for 40" at 300dpi panorama.

[ken davis]

My word, it's amazing what a resource this forum is.

 

Please forgive me, but my photography has to take a back seat from time to time to my real job. I will get around to responding to each of you individually and thanking you for your input and relative conversation. In the fairness of time and brevity, I wanted to address a couple of issues for those that may need this help in the future.

 

First, I did find an Xpan for a good deal and decided to try this first. Again, this is more for my wife than for me. My second approach has been do find a 90mm or wider lens for my 4x5 and just get used to it! Third, I've not ruled out the Fuji/Horseman/Fotoman/Technorama way, but dollars are dictating a different solution at the moment. Jennifer is delighted in her new camera, and maybe I have gained some points that I can use later :-))

 

I am already discovering that there are challenges in the area of processing/printing/scanning, and I'm hoping to summarize those and solutions soon for this and other forums. I am also discovering the challenges/limitations of our chosen format and will illustrate those for posterity at a later date. With regard to a forum on this topic, if someone will guide me in how one creates a forum here, I will gladly donate my time to helping with and possibly mediating such a forum.

 

Really, folks, from the bottom of my heart....you are the greatest friends a photographer could want. I will try to get back to each of you in the next few days.

 

God speed,

 

Ken