Interesting observations about Target one-hour photo labs...

[canon_eos_rules]

Today, I talked to the local Target's one-hour photo manager. In

between talking about taking great pictures, the harsh words about

Wal-Mart, and such, I heard some interesting stuff. Some examples:

 

-There's a slugfest going on beween Kodak and Fujifilm for Target's

photo business. Until recently, all of Target's one-hour photo labs

were run by Kodak/Qualex, but Target is testing running the labs

themselves in 50 locations nationwide (primarily in the Chicago

area), using Fuji Frontier machines, Fuji Crystal Archive paper, and

Fuji Hunt chemistry. On the other hand, in Minneapolis (Target's

hometown) and Orlando, Kodak/Qualex is testing new servces using

Noritsu equipment (as opposed to the Gretags in most Target labs).

The tests are 2-year agreements, so Target won't make a decision on

who to go with until 2006.

 

-In the 900+ stores where Kodak/Qualex operates the one-hour labs,

Kodak will transition all the Picture Makers to the newer Picture

Maker G3 models with 5-second 4x6 printing and camera phone printing

capability via IR and Bluetooth by the end of this year.

 

-One interesting fact: The day after my high school had prom, the

photo lab's sales more than doubled that day from $100-$150/day to

$400 that day alone! (In case you were wondering, they had to change

BOTH glossy and matte paper that day, but not the lustre.)

 

What do you think? Do any of you photo.netters live near any of the

Target/Fuji test sites? If you do, have you tried their prints?

[barefoot]

Fascinating.

[eric friedemann]

It is not unusual for my store to see 100 rolls of color print film come in on a Monday. This year, the Monday after Mother's Day and the Monday after prom, we had 300 roll plus days. That's $3,500 in gross processing recepipts alone.

 

We've had the Battlestar Gallactica of Noritsu optical machines for years, which, I think, can kick out more prints per hour than any other store lab optical machine made. (There are larger, higher-volume C-print machines for full-bore labs housed in larger spaces.)

 

We are currently looking at replacing the optical machine with a high-output, 300 d.p.i., laser/C-print machine from Noritsu. (Our other printer- a Noritsu 2901- cannot handle the volume of digital work we're getting.) I believe this new monster costs $250K.

 

Sadly, our big-a$$ed optical machine cost $250K when we got it, I want to say 15 years ago. As a trade-in, the optical machine is worth $10,000. And it wouldn't do us any good to sell the optical machine on ebay. There is used optical equipment out the wazoo for sale there with no bids.

[r._odinal]

Film is still a HUGE indu$try.

[biotime_biotime]

I don't have your answer but I can add some local info for so cal. 1.

 

1.The Targets here have all gone to Gretag digital machines for their one hour work and

 

2.I was told that when they send a roll for Kodak picture perfect proessing it also gets done on Gretags. I don't know how accurate this part is.

 

My experience on the Gretags is they overexpose to an unacceptable degree. I asked one operator to make sure he "kept full color" and he said he understood but that printing looked poor also.

 

So I have been going to Walmart with a Frontier 370. My worost prints there are if I give them Fuji film. The best (and they agree) are if the run Kodak HD400. I also get quite good prints from Polaroid 800 (agfa).

 

My very best roll to date is with Kodak HD on Noritsu digital 3011 at Savon. I have only taken one rool there so far but plab to try them out further.

[scott_eaton]

Any comments on what gas stations, 7-11's, and all nite liquor stores are using in your area as well?

 

Thank god I have two pro shops in town running Frontier's that know what they are doing.

[canon_eos_rules]

Biotime, Gretag did make a VERY high-volume machine for wholesale labs (like the Kodak/Qualex labs) called the Netprinter 812, so that might be what Kodak Perfect Touch processing is using. (If they did, they probably got them at 30-50% of Gretag's price because Gretag was being liquidated at the time.) It was a 500-dpi RA-4 machine about the size of a Frontier 390.

 

As of recently, Gretag's assets were picked up by a "new" company called San Marco Imaging (which actually was a part of pre-bankruptcy Gretag), and they are again making the Netprinter and the Masterworld Digital series (Masterflex Digital, Master 5, Master Plus, the latter two being new models that Gretag had already developed, but never shipped), as well as parts for older MasterLabs and Masterflex units. (Good thing, because Gretag machines go through parts at blockbuster speed.)

[everitt]

Yawn

[biotime_biotime]

Apparently some of you are either to tired (yawn), or so professional you never had the need to try and stretch your funds. Or is it just rudeness? Well I have far more than two pro shops here in LA, I can pick from any number. Am I going to spend hundreds or thousands on them espicially for experimental or non-commercial work, no. Would I hand commercial printing to them, of course. My main effort is finding the best neg film for my particular scanner which anyone who has tried knows is not as easy as throwing some Provia on a scanner. In the course of this experimentation all this minilab discussion comes up. Obviously most of the non-pro operators cannot extract the best their machines are capable of but do you think it is of zero interest that the digital Gretags consistently overexpose my prints or that the Walmart Frontiers consistently do much better with Kodak and Agfa film than they do with Fuji films or that a Noritsu 3011 have given me far better results than either? Or that scanning negs as a positive has not worked well on my scanner. Possibly you have read my posts on these other issues but have I not received any valuable feedback from anyone. Or this is a case of Fuji blindness? If you have anything to offer people who are making a effort to address some of these issues it would be much more appreciated than your thoughtless answers.

[everitt]

This thread is ridiculous to begin with Biotime. For the consumer 1 hour labs

(walmart, walgreens, etc.) the quality is so variable from one store to the next

(the operator is much more important than what machine is used) that's its

useless to speculate on the quality of prints of a certain chain using a certain

machine. If the operator is a complete dolt, then having a frontier isn't going to

much good.

[biotime_biotime]

If having any discussion about consumer minilabs is ridiclous why are there so many posts from people trying to deal with it and the myriad of related issues of film/printing machine/chemistry combinations and all the other processing/printing issues nobody can agree with? All you can do with these forums is to try and find some sort of general consensus on a given topic. Most of the time this is fruitless as opinion is all over the place. Should the discussion be limited to just pro labs while there are any left? WalMart and the rest may be all film users are left with as they try to get the last gasp out of film. The operators may or may not be dolts and the variables are difficult if not impossible to ever nail down as you say but minilabs are a fact of life for many. I would love to hand every roll to A&I or whomever but it's not going to happen. I'd have to drop film first. Fortunately for me the prints are not so important as the scanability but I would like to find a reasonably affordable and consistent combination of neg print and scan as many others are.

[everitt]

The consumer labs are like rolling dice. You have to find one you like

personally. So, unless someone recommends a specific store location for

their output, it's still a gamble.

[chris_d2]

Well for a Kodak Lab Operator in Target, I must say that Lustre paper is the most awesome paper compared to the gloss and matte, however one problem with many of the other labs (target, etc.) is the fact that they don't keep up with the machines. Where I work we use the Masterlab 740+, only two store use the Flex's. Our Masterlab prints out the best prints I have ever seen, however when I go to the other labs the quality is so different. There is no way that Walmart's picture are "better", I deal wth a lot of Walmart's upset customers (which we have two SuperWalmarts withing 10 minutes of each other), and there prints are horrible and faded.

 

Unfortunatly most photolabs are set up for ease of use, for instance the Glossy, Matte, and Lustre paper share the "glossy" paper channel, (in other words when you put your matte in the machine still said Glossy), no matter what lab you go to. That makes a difference when switching between paper due to the fact that when you run a paper emulasion test on your glossy paper on the glossy channel, the machine will adjust to the paper that you have in their so when you change to matte or lustre which have a different emulsion, the print are not optimal unless you rerun a paper test. Our lab is the one and the only lab that is set up to have a Glossy, Matte and Lustre channel (thanks to me) so we can have our individual paper settings and retain the quality. As far as downtime, we have had none since i have been their except for when they change the racks and rollers.

 

Then again you have your nasty labs (the target 30 minutes away from mine) that don't mantenance the machine and are down 30 hours a week and eats more film than it develops.

 

Overall Taarget has the lowest priced best prints, and as for the Disgusting Perfect Touch Processing using Gretags?? Well the outlab is run pretty much humanless, I would be 90% sure they don't use Gretags.

[scott_gloger]

I am a professional photographer. I have been completley digital since November of 1999. I can tell you that the "location" and the operator have a lot to do with the final quality of the prints. FOr example... I used to use a "professional" lab One that is a BIG BOY in the pro industry. I found out that all of thier 11x14 and smaller digital work is done on a Noritsu minilab. I have Costco about 10 minutes from my studio. When they opened I took some digital files to them just to see what they would look like. They came back light and contrasty. I was told that the machine automatically does density and color correction. I asked the operator to turn off all of the auto corrections and print the files AS I GAVE THEM. The results were on par with the prints I recieved from the "PRO" lab. I have been using them ever since. (At a INCREDIBLE SAVINGS in cost AND SPEED I might add) The moral to the story is... IF you give ANYONE who has one of these machines a GOOD file where no correction are needed than the results will be great. If you give them garbage then the results will be garbage.

[ken_s1]

I would like to respond to EOS Rules and Biotime Biotime (see a special note for you at the end).

 

Here is the scoop

1: Gretag Machines that are at Target are minilabs and true, they do have a bad reputation. The digital versions have a much better reputation. Called a MasterFlex Digital.

1A: The NetPrinter 812 is not a "VERY high volume machine" - when we say High Volume 20 thousand prints per hour is HIGH Volume and no minilab can even come close to that and most are lucky if they can break 1500 prints an hour - not even 10 % speed of the HighVolume machines.

 

2: The machines that are used in photolabs are High Volume Machines minilabs cannot handle 30,000 plus rolls of film a night.

 

3: The machines that are used are manufactured by Kodak, Agfa and Gretag.

 

4: The Gretag machines that are in most photolabs are very old and are used mainly for 110 and 126 film printing. (Film Splicing and Film Processing are performed on other pieces of equipment made by various manufacturers.)

4A: There are other Highspeed machines made by Gretag that produce very high quality prints from 135 and reorder negatives.

 

5: KPP and Regular Processing - same equipment - just an additional inspection (you should get this quality without paying a premium anyway!)

 

6: Perfect Touch I believe now comes standard on KPP - the printing equipment is different. They use Kodak High Speed Digital Printers - and have many names associated with it - 10k and Mercury are 2 of the names.

 

7: Gretag high speed machines in the early 80's set the standard for quality and speed. Which is why the Agfa is an almost duplicate form of the Gretag.

 

8: Gretag Assets were bought out by various companies depending on market wholesale lab (high volume) or minilab.

 

9: San Marco was at one point part of Gretag Imaging, and was bought out of the bankruptcy.

 

10: NetPrinter was manufactured out of Denver Co. as a coompany Gretag purchased.. when the bankruptcy occurred they were bought by San Marco.

 

11: The Wholesale Division was bought by Kis photo-me and is now called Imaging Solutions AG

 

12: Imaging Solutions produces HighSpeed digital equipment (originally being developed by Gretag - very high quality and high speed) there are several places in North America and Europe that have this equipment.

 

13: If you have Reorder film - any one in the industry knows the process and the pitfalls, good news however is that there are a couple states where Walmart is your best choice.

 

14: In the end when you send your work to a highspeed lab - there is no telling what equipment was used to produce it. (not necessarily a bad thing) - truth is - in general the quality you get depends upon the people that work in the wholesale lab. Some Labs are better than others. Some labs are very bad and you wonder how they survive.

 

15: As for Kodak Film getting better results at the Minilab - Bad Quality Control.. if you know how it is done you should know this... and who in their right mind would use polaroid/3m film - too much silver retention causes diffusion and bad effects for the machines that must analyze the negative. (Those printers are Giant Cameras and they must analyze the film before making the exposure on the paper).

 

And a special note just for BIOTIME.

You simply want your negs digitized and to be comparable with your prints is that what you are asking now..?

Ok here is the scoop for you - The Gretag Machines Overexpose - nope that is technical maintenance and quality control. BAD SHOPS BAD TECHNICAL PEOPLE. PERIOD.

The Frontiers better with Kodak and Agfa film - Quality Control - Film Balance - Period. If you knew what was involved you would understand this. (I know from what you write that you don't, and that is OK - you just want prints and scans to match - but now you have to know something...because you are now trying to compare apples and oranges etc..)

If you want a scan from your neg and want it to match - usually you get a JPEG a JPEG is not a true match of what was scanned - nor does it have to be the same resolution that was scanned. (It is considered a LOSSY format as well ) Get a TIF file if you want better. The resolution also plays a part is it 1024 x 768 pixels at 300 dpi or 150 dpi SIZE divided by DPI will give you the maximum number of inches at the stated DPI for example 1200 x 1800 Pixels at 300 DPi will give you a 4 x 6 print at 300 DPi - trying to make that an 8 x 12 will result in 150 dpi and so on. If you want the scans - what base do you want them 4 base 8 base 16 base ?? Do some research.. because what you are asking doesn't have a simple answer such as take them to Joes digital shop...

 

There is a whole lot more detail that could be added but we will stop here.

 

 

[biotime_biotime]

Wow Ken you really know your minilabs. Mostly I was trying to give the seemingly unpopular Eos Rules the feedback he requested about the Targets. Of course everyone knows that all these labs/operators are extremely inconsistent, duh. I never said it was the machines fault. The operators around here don't even know the brand of the machine they are working on! My local Targets are all on very new digital Gretags not the old ones. The Rite Aids have those. Really the operators give it their best shot right after they get back from smoking dope. The colors look so much better you know. I based my overexpose/too light on these new digital Gretags from various stores and they were definitely were typically washed out.

 

The Polaroid I happened to test was Agfa by the way not 3m so take a breather on that one too.

 

For some reason my Fuji brand film prints consistently were the worst even on the Frontiers and Kodak brand film prints have been better on all the local machines even on the Frontiers. Just an observation, I am sure you know why. Of course it is not a native Frontier problem or why would I get such great prints back from pro labs running frontiers, who would be so stupid as to assume so?

 

Most of the time the lab prints are usually just a by product because I scan my film myself. I can take my neg film to a pro lab for 6 dollars for process only or pay the same 6 dollars and get a set of prints with it, sometimes great, often crap because of the operators. I don't blame the operators as the stores don't train them really and they earn Wal-Mart wages, how much can one expect? When I want nice prints and don't want to pay pro prices I go to a Savon with a Noritsu 3011 if a certain operator I know happens to be working that day and I thank her dearly for adjusting each frame for me.

 

No, I was not asking for my scans to match my lab prints because I have never ordered a cd from any of these places as the file sizes and quality are inadequate and I do all my own scanning. What I was looking for was a neg film that would scan well on MY scanner and give me a level of digital quality I would find acceptable. The only neg film I worked with that came close was Kodak 400 UC.

 

I work in commercial offset printing with Creo CTP installation for 6 color 40" Heidleberg press and do not need a lesson in file types, thanks all the same. By the way .jpg and .tif have little to do with color or resolution it is just that jpgs are compressed when saved with resultant loss of quality.

 

Of course you can substitute dpi for dimension that's why we talk in terms of file size. Any PhotoShop user knows this.

 

Maybe you should learn more about digital imaging before you spill over from your mini lab world.