AI lenses with Digital SLRs

[andy_blagbrough]

Having contributed to this forum for a while, I know need to trade-in my brownie points

and seek advice. I am a FM3a and FM2 owner with MF AI, AIS lenses. If I got a D70 or DX2,

what would the compatibility problems be? I know the obvious problems - no AF. But what

about such things as depth-of-field, reading the the aperture, AP exposure?

 

The reason for these questions is that I have been asked to investigate the purchase of a

Nikon DSLR for use in a laboratory to photograph specimens using pre-AF lenses. Any

help please.

 

Andy B

[wilsontsoi]

In your case go with the D2X as it will support proper metering with Ai, AiS lenses (you can input a focal length and maximum aperture of the manual lens in D2X menu) while the D70, similar to N80, won't meter the old manual focus lenses (although you can use light meter and set exposure manually.)

[anupam]

Everything will work except metering on the D70. On the D2X, you'll get spot and center weighted metering. I don't think you'll get matrix metering but verify that from D2x owners.

[bjørn rørslett]

Sure. D2-type cameras (D2H/D2Hs/D2X) do give matrix (and colour) metering with any AI or AIS lenses. Be warned that the exposure, for AI lenses, will only be correct if you set the aperture directly on the lens, not by using the command wheel on the camera itself. For AIS lenses this constraint doesn't apply.

[lex_jenkins]

Getting satisfactory control over DOF isn't as much a problem with the current batch of Nikon dSLR sensors as it has been with the smaller sensors in P&S digicams.

 

With a fast lens on a Nikon dSLR you can still get satisfactorily shallow DOF. I can't say I notice any particular differences between using a 50/1.8, 85/2, 105/2.5 or even 300/4.5 on either the D2H or F3HP/FM2N at the wider apertures.

 

But I haven't done any real testing either. To test methodically I'd set up a main subject, a foreground object and a background object, shoot at various apertures using both the dSLR and 35mm SLRs, and compare results. But since I haven't noticed any deficiencies in routine shooting situations, I haven't felt any need to do any testing.

 

As for previewing DOF, I can comment only on the D2H, which I own. Whether using AI, AI-S, AF or AF-S lenses, DOF works as usual via a single button located to the right of the lens mount. It's handy but I've never found DOF preview to be an essential tool.

[david_h._hartman]

D2X, D2Hs, D2H, D1X, all thumbs up for manual focus Nikkors.

The first three have a particularly good viewfinder for manual

focus lens and the first three also give you matrix metering and

aperture preferred exposure automation if you press the Function

Button and select the focal length and maximum aperture. IF using

flash you get the SB-800 and Nikons CLS (creative Lightning

system). I always think of clearing the screen and in DOS (disk

operating system). This includes not only AIS and AI but also AI(ed)

Nikkors. If you don't imput the lens data still get good old

Nikon Center-Weighted Metering with a choice of how concentrated

it is towards the center of the frame, e.g. like a F2As or FM2n

or like an F3HP or F5, your choice.<br>

<br>

I find most lenses 50mm and longer work very well with the D2H, e.g.

50/1.8 AI, 85/2.0 AIS, 105/2.5 AIS, 135/2.8 AIS and surprisingly

my 25~50/4.0 AIS works very well. Good glass is good glass. Wide

angles really arent on the DX format and are more likely to

show CA or other artifacts. By adding a couple of new lenses at

the short end youll do fine.<br>

<br>

The D70 offers no metering but the lenses all work in manual mode.

If the budget is tight then Ill recommend a clean used D2H.

Im loving the camera. I bought mine at Nikons fire

sale closeout. If the budget is healthy then the D2X

is the camera to buy. The D70 and D70s finders just dont

cut it for manual focus. They are hobbled by a lot of viewfinder

features, low viewfinder magnification at their low price point.<br>

<br>

---<br>

<br>

<em>The reason for these questions is that I have been

asked to investigate the purchase of a Nikon DSLR for use in a

laboratory to photograph specimens using pre-AF lenses. Any help

please. --Andy Blagbrough<br>

</em><br>

If you can find one and can spring for it I can highly recommend

a 70~180/4.5~5.6D ED AF Micro-Nikkor but on a tighter budget the

105/4.0 AI or AIS and 105/2.8 AIS Micro-Nikkors all work very

well on the D2H and Im sure the D2X. The 200/4.0 AI and AIS

Micro-Nikkor will show some chromatic aberration. This is often a

problem with older IF lenses.<br>

<br>

The D70 and D70s do not meter with the AIS and AI Nikkors but if

the lighting is consistent this might not be a problem. Im

sure all of these cameras can be shot tethered to a monitor

though you cant see the image until after its taken

as these are all SLR(s) with a mirror. Im particularly

doubtful of the viewfinder of the D70 and D70s but if the camera

was attached to a low power microscope this might not be a

problem.<br>

<br>

My recommendation is still a clean used D2H or a new D2X

depending on the budget. I doubt that the extra resolution and

file size of the D2X is actually needed for your application but

it might be desirable. If the D2X produces files that are too big

you can shoot using medium size. With the D2H and D2X

you can shoot NEF + JPG Fine at the same time. You cant do

with the D70 and D70s. I dont know the D1 camers.<br>

<br>

Best,<br>

<br>

Dave Hartman.</p>

 

<p>PS: should I read the whole question before starting to

answer?

[david_h._hartman]

<em>With a fast lens on a Nikon dSLR you can still get

satisfactorily shallow DOF. I can't say I notice any particular

differences between using a 50/1.8, 85/2, 105/2.5 or even 300/4.5

on either the D2H or F3HP/FM2N at the wider apertures.

Lex Jenkins<br>

</em><br>

I think you need to open up about 1 stop to get the same shallow

DOF and blurred background, film v. DX. This is not as bad as I

though before owning a DSLR. The flip side is you get the same

DOF for close-up using 1 stop wider aperture. I have not tested

either, this is just an observation. I did compare a 105/2.5 AIS

and 135/2.8 AIS for bokeh (excuse me) and they are

about the same quality with the 135/2.8 having the larger blurred

disks from an out of focus point light source. As I recall the

subject was at 2m and the blurred background target was at 5m.

Increasing the distance from the subject to the background if

possible will help blur the background.<br>

<br>

I friend who later sold me his 105/4.0 AI swore that it had good

bokeh and it does, wide open. It can be used as a portrait lens.

It might benefit from a black mist filter (Harrison

& Harrison Black Dot knockoff) to soften the image for older

skin. One can also place a sharpened layer over the raw

background and then erase the skin areas to eliminate wrinkles or

just not sharpen the image. Every DSLR comes with a free soft

focus filter. All you have to do is not use in camera sharpening.<br>

<br>

Anyway the DOF of the DX format is a plus for close-up

photography, not a big one but its there.<br>

<br>

Regards,<br>

<br>

Dave Hartman.

[douglas_green1]

The Nikon-based bodies that will meter with AI lenses are the D1, D1x, D1h, D2h, D2hs, and D2x, as well as the various Kodak DCS 600 and 700 series. The Nikon D100, D70, D70s, and I believe D50 will mount the AI and AIS lenses, but not meter with them. The pro series bodies will offer spot and center-weighted metering, but most or all of the matrix modes won't work (except in the D2x).

 

Personally, the need to have at least center-weighted metering was a big issue for me, and it's the reason I never got a D100 or D70. I recently looked at some of the used Pro-series cameras, and seriously considered buying a D1x, before settling on a used Kodak DCS-760, which is a 4 year old 6.1 Megapixel body that is built into an F5 chassis. The DCS-760 and the D1x both seem to be selling for $1000-1400 for complete kits used, depending on condition and how many/good the batteries that are included with it and how carefully you shop. My DCS-760 set me back a bit under $1100 in Excellent shape with AC adapter, charger, and a couple of NiMH battery packs last month on the 'bay. 4 years ago, when it was new, this was an $8000 outfit.

 

The only issue with the Kodak DCS series is that these are large - heavy cameras, essentially, a Nikon F5 with a digital sensor back and a big battery pack. The D1x is slightly lower resolution, slightly slower in bursts, and doesn't have interchangeable finders, but it is smaller, lighter and better ergonomically. But it's still about double the size and weight of a D70.

 

The other choice, of course, is to use a D70 without metering. In a lab environment, you can use the histogram and trial and error to get good exposures.

 

I'm pretty happy with my DCS-760 - especially the image quality, which is outstanding, but it's not the kind of small and easy to carry camera that I'd choose to sling around my neck while I was on vacation.

[greglyon]

Andy, as others have stated your AI/AIS lenses will work on both D70 and D2x, but you'll get NO metering at all with D70. If your 'lab specimens' don't move and are under consistent lighting you can consider the D70 a possibility. I use mine with AI and AIS lenses all the time, but only with relatively static subjects. You can take a picture, look at the histogram, modify as necessary and reshoot. I suspect that in a lab situation with consistent lighting you'll quickly know the approximate exposure and only need minor tweaking.

 

That said, if theres budget for one of the D2 series cameras why not take advantage of the added benefits.

[nikonboy]

I have used by 105 f2.5 AI on my D70 a few times. Interesting that even thought the meter doesn't work the focus assitant (Electronic range finder) still works. Guessing exposure actually isn't that hard.<div></div>

[duoying_liu1]

I have used Nikon for a long time. I have a few AI and AIS lenses. They are good lenses and work on my N90s, F4 and F5. Unfornately, on D70, there is no light-metering function with any of these lenses, even no stop-down light-metering function. The metering function, it's just a few lines of code which is already in Nikon's D2X and D2H camera software. To make using manual-focus lens more difficult, Nikon even cut off the code that possibly let D70 customers to use stop-down metering, which needs only a path of the light information to be displayed (the display function, now we can see only -- on the display). It clearly Nikon decided to remove these functions from D70 to force the customers to buy their new G lenses. The D70 is a great camera, Nikon knows it would be better with the ability of using AI and AIS lenses with metering function, but it decided to remove it purposely to make it more profit with this new product, by hurting many of us who have its manual-focus lenses. In last few years, Nikon has changed its guide-line doing business, not like old days when Nikon thought about its existing custmers and made its new products to be backward compatible with older lenses. Remember the time when it transferred from manual-focus to auto-focus camera. For last few years, many of us stayed with Nikon, even its major competiter, Canon, kept rolling out new products with advance technologies. We thought Nikon would take care its custmers when it rolls out new products. Today, with D70 and the manual-focus lens in my hands, I feel being betrayed. Taking look some of new products that I bought made by Nikon, the 80-400mm VR is harp, but no AF-S, even not an IF. The 24-120mm VR is so soft at 24mm end and the image taken at 24mm with f < 5.6 is useless. Is purpose of doing these to keep us to buy its new products which have some update/fix on these features in near future?

[david_h._hartman]

Duoying,<br>

<br>

Nikon is catering to a lower customer base with the D70. You

mention the N90s, F4 and F5. These cameras are made for the high

end market. The D70 is a low end camera like the N75 but with the

significant cost increase of the CCD and additional electronics.<br>

<br>

You are not going to get the quality and performance you are

accustomed to in a new DSLR unless you buy a D2Hs or D2X. By far

most photographers will want the larger 12.4MP images from the D2X

so there is an unfortunate and significant increase in price.<br>

<br>

Were you to buy a Canon model instead of a Nikon model youd

need to move to the EOS-1D Mk II to get a similar build quality

and performance. The entry level Canon DSLR(s) suffer many of the

same problems as the entry level Nikon DSLR(s). The lens on the

Canon 20D when I looked at it a Best Buy was the worst Ive

held in my hands. The image moved all over the place it was so

loose. The viewfinder seemed smaller but with more bite than the

D70. It was a keyhole. Anyway I would not be happy with a 20D.<br>

<br>

I dont know the reason but the Nikon F100, D2H, F6, D2X and

D2Hs do not offer stop-down metering via the DOF preview button

as found on the F5, F4s, F3, F2As, FM2n, FE2, etc.<br>

<br>

I really think Nikons motivation is price point, size and

weight, not forcing customers to buy G type lenses. The D2 series

of DSLR(s) have good AI and AIS Nikkor compatibly and viewfinders

that are well suited to manual focus. My D2H and F5 have the same

quality of build and ease of use. Unfortunately you have to pay

to play at this level. For some of us this requires sacrifice.<br>

<br>

Since you are used to the viewfinders of the N90s, F4s and F5 you

are not going to be happy with the D70 even if it gave metering

to AI and AIS Nikkors. When using AF lenses you will not be

satisfied with AF the D70 offers since you are used to the F5.

These camera are at opposite ends of the market.<br>

<br>

Its a bitter pill but you have to pay to play. I bought a

Nikon D2H on fire sale for $1,995.00 over the D70 specifically

because of the viewfinder and auto-focus performance. I did not

buy a D2X specifically because $3,000.00 price premium.<br>

<br>

I know this will not be popular but to me a prosumer

product is one that has a feature list like a professional or

high grade product but lacks the quality and performance of these

products. I think a more honest term would be a "pseudo

professional product."<br>

<br>

Life is hard, the you die.<br>

<br>

Regards,<br>

<br>

Dave Hartman.

[ShunCheung]

If the primary purpose is to photograph lab specimens, metering shouldn't be a main issue. You should have plenty of time to shoot a few test shots, check the digital histogram, adjust your exposure and reshoot. A D2X seems to me a major overkill for such purposes. You are simply wasting your money on a very rugged body with start-of-the-art AF, metering, large memory buffer .... I happen to have a D2X myself and it is great DSLR for nature photography in harsh environments. Inside a lab, you can take advantage of almost none of those features.

 

I would check out the D70, especially its viewfinder, and see whether it works for you.