Crowded photo sites in National Parks

[cynthia_bauer1]

Last summer I arrived very early at Oxbow Bend in Gtand Teton NP to

observe birds with my binoculars, not to photograph. The second

person to arrive was a young lady who set up her tripod and camera

in a location just below the parking area, she was the first

photographer to arrive and was very pleasant. 15 minutes later 5

cars and vans arrived, obviously a photo workshop group of some

kind, they all jumped out of their cars, set up their tripods side

by side at the top of the hill just above the young lady, then they

started asking her to move out of the way as she was in their

photos. The group and group leader became much more vocal as sunrise

progressed it seemed rather rude behavior since she was there first.

After this photographer left, the photo group started yelling at

people in kayak's and canoes on the river to hurry up as they were

ruining their pictures. So my question is, how would you handle this

situation if you had arrived at this famous location first???

[cbender]

I've been in that exact situation at Oxbow Bend. There were other individual photographers who arrived there at about the same time as myself, and we were all setup near each other but not in each others way. After a while the 'tourists' started showing up and were not happy that we were there and in their way, but it was pretty easy to ignore them since there were several of us.

[dfdncithekxlbn8kaglf33]

If this was a commercial tour of some sort, you could have got their particulars and reported their actions to the Park Service. Crowding behavior is normal and people do have to have to get along in such situation, but nobody has the right to order legit users out of an area. I have asked people to move, if they are out of the permitted viewing area and gonna block more than just my shot. Of course the best course of action is to avoid these areas altogether.

[mark pav]

That is quite rude. My first encounter with this sort of behaviour was in Europe; I'd never encountered it in my travels through Canada, Australia, or Asia. What can you do, really? You just deal with them as you would with any other rude people. It calls for a lot of patience and firmness. Don't sink to their level.

 

In your case could you have gone further into the park to get away from them? Most Americans venture no more than a couple hundred yards or so when exploring national parks. It is a real pain when you're in a spot that you especially want a photo of though.

[rosswordhouse.com]

This story makes me really sad... the group sounds like they

forgot what nature photography is all about. I'm glad the early

riser stuck to her guns and hopefully got her shot.

 

I've been in similar situations, I had my camera set up on this

great beach sunset, been there for half an hour waiting for the

light to change. Perfect beach - no footprints. Then just as the

light starts to go off, a guy and his two dogs go running through

the scene and destroy the sandy beach. All I could do is smile

and find a new location. Lost the shot, but I'm sure the sun will

set again in the west so all is good.

 

Nature photography to me is all about the experience of being

wrapped in the glory of nature and being able to share that with

others through photography.

 

To address your question, Yes, I would have said something to

the group, even if it fell on deft ears. But then again, I'm 6'5" and

just shy of 300LBS. I don't get much flack :-)

 

http://www.rosswordhouse.com

[Two23]

I've seen similar rude behavior by "workshop" groups in a number of places. It has convinced me to never do one. Once while up north of Banff, I saw a nice sunset shaping up. I pulled well off the road and my wife & I set up our tripods, all alone. About then a van pulled up and a bunch of people poured out, speaking French. Despite the fact this was a wide open area, they set up their tripods directly in front of my wife and I! And then to top it off, one of them began reaching into the open window of my car and began pawing at the lenses etc. in the camera bag I had left open on the rear seat. I took my heavy duty Bogen monopod (3249B) whacked that guy as hard as I could, hoping to break at least one rib. He yelped in pain, banged his head on my car door, and ran back into the van. I followed and told the photo workshop director that while everybody in Canada seems way too nice, I'm from South Dakota and if that guy gets into my car again, I will kill him. I also told him I'd never seen such a rude bunch of people. I then started walking towards where the first bunch had crowded my wife, clutching my monopod like a club. They scattered like a covey of quail.

 

 

Kent in SD

[qtluong]

I would check to see if there was an appropriate spot nearby to my

liking which wouldn't interfere with them, and if that's not the case, tell them politely but firmly that it's up to them to change their

composition, not to me.

[greg s]

"So my question is, how would you handle this situation if you had arrived at this famous location first???"

 

Quite honestly, I might just leave. Not because it's necessarily the 'correct' thing to do, but rather because the purpose of my being there in the first place would probably have already been reduced (the experience).

 

Typically, my wife and I try to get as remote as possible. Mainly that means travelling out of country. Herds of photographers are not what we want to see.

[craig_gillette]

Being of the 6 ft. plus and 200 lbs plus variety myself, I can also pull off the "stay out of MY space" routine and there are few language barriers to getting that point across. However, it's seldom necessary because there aren't that many bus loads of terminally boorish people. The victims or others should have reported the incident to the NPS because there is really no excuse for it, it certainly adds to the poor image many people have of photographers, and the operator should be working on instilling apprpriate behavior patterns in his/her student, not just technical expertise. They weren't using presto-logs for light were they?

 

In railfan photography, it becomes almost necessary to form camera lines - unlike a natural scene, the subject is often a moving locomotive, train, etc., and forming a stcked line allows many people to have a similar good view along with staying pretty much out of the view of others. And it may only pass once, unlike simply waiting a couple of minutes for a boat to drift by. It's very rude to break the line and get ahead of the others, etc. But the first person can usually be reasonably accomodating but they shouldn't be squeezed out either.

 

I can certainly imagine how one could take up a good spot and perhaps be in the view of others as the ground slopes down to river's edge from the lot there. My parents spent several hours waiting for a locksmith there on a family trip to Yellowstone. Probably one of the best places to wait for a locksmith I could think of.

[Two23]

It's been my experience that railfans are much more polite than bird photographers, LOL! Maybe that's why I take more photos of trains now than I ever did of birds. I rarely ever see anyone else taking train photos, so there are no lines. I do regularly follow along with the UP 3985 whenever it goes out and there are of course at least a dozen photographers at every grade or overpass. I have yet to meet an inconsiderate one. We are all enjoying the comradeship of the experience, perhaps. Maybe "nature" photographers can learn from them? Sometimes I hear a mumbled complaint that it's hard to get a photo without all the people. Really though, I figure the people are part of the deal. So I often make a point to include them! I do this for wildlife photos too. Sometimes, my subject is not so much the animal as it is the small crowd of people cornering it and taking it's photo.<div></div>

[srspears]

Ohhhh doesn't that just chap your hide?

 

It's happened to me more than I can count with wildlife. I've been patiently stalking an animal in local WMA's or FWR's and after putting in several hours watching, observing, waiting, quietly becoming part of the environment, and just as the moment of the right light, right location, right behavior starts, some knucklehead sees me at the edge of the woods or quietly laying on the ground and comes stomping up to see what I'm doing, inevitably scarring off the animal. Hours wasted, light gone, no shots. Makes me want to knock em up the side of the head with my tripod too. Never had the gumption to do it like a previous posted with the french speaking tourists. I just shut my eyes tight and wish them gone! But, that usually doesn't happen, so I just pack up my gear and go home..... not the most adult thing, but there's usually a dirty look involved too.

 

steph

[mirvin]

I'm retired now so I have the benefit of many years of experience in the business world.

When I was young and stupid I let people run rough shod over me. Now I have learned

that there are many people out there that get there way by just being rude to people that

allow it to happen. If you stand up to them then they tend to melt away. These people are

just jerks, if you let them dominate you then they feel empowered and continue to try and

intimidate people. I Just tell them if they wanted a clear shot they should have set their

alarm earlier their problems are not mine. If they feel they can handle the job they can

move me. Maybe as I get older that would not be a good challenge. For now it works. If

there is anything that really gets under my skin is when people think that they are so

important that everyone else is suppose to give up their rights to satisfy them.

[stephen hazelton]

Cynthia, part of the solution is to arrive early. The second half of the solution is to hike, speedily. Rocky Mountain National Park gets 3 million visitors a year. But I have hiked until 4:00 in the afternoon on a summer weekend without seeing a single person. Most people out there won't get more than two miles from a trailheadl; go 8 miles up the trail, and you're liable to find a carpet of the most beautiful wildflowers, all to yourself. It adds tremendously to the experience of being there. And, when you do meet the occasional other soul who ventures up the same trail that far, you meet a friend, not a stranger. I remember Skeleton Gulch and the south face of Mt Meeker, Pagoda Peak and Andrews Glacier, and so many other beautiful places, and had them all to myself.

[chelsea]

Cynthia, you're not the only one who has experienced this. Darwin Wiggett wrote an article on just this problem and similar type situations:

http://www.naturephotographers.net/articles0303/dw0303-1.html

So far I've only had a couple encounters with other photographers. Last year when I was at Corkscrew swamp in Florida, I was standing near the red shouldered hawk's nest. I had my Minolta with the 300 mm lens, but with the light and the distance there was just no way of hoping for anything but a small silhouette blob, not to mention I didn't have a tripod (hear the collective gasps on that one!) While I was watching the mother coming in to the nest, a couple guys walk up loaded with gear, 600 mm lenses with teleconverters, vests and camera bags bulging with accessories. I smiled and said good morning, and didn't even get so much as a grunt in return. Instead, they noisily discussed the hawks, glared at me for standing in the primo spot, and complained to each other about not being able to get the shot. I just stayed put, turned my back on them, and looked through the viewfinder now and then. All they had to do was say hello, and I would have gladly stepped aside to let them have the spot. Oh well, rude people are everywhere. It's just unfortunate that those few rude photographers annoy just enough people, and park wardens, to ruin it for the rest of us.

[claire_curran1]

Cynthia, I wish I had an answer for your question. I have encountered this problem at times, even when I have hiked some miles before sunrise and been the first person to the spot. I recently got to a rather unphotographed location 40 min. before sunrise. No one else was there. About 5 min. after earthshadow began with a near full moon setting and being reflected in perfectly still water, a fellow arrived, took note of me, and proceeded to set up directly in the middle of my image pointing his camera in my direction away from the moon. I invited him to join me, then pleaded, and finally viciously cursed him. He did move then, but I went back the next dawn to cover my bases. Leaders of photo workshops often are the worst offenders. They see a large format photographer out shooting and that is a magnate for them. I have had them descend upon me with upwards of 25 participants, some of whom line up behind me waiting their turn to use my tripod holes. My rule of thumb is if a photographer gets to an area before me, I respect their first rights. I never move into their image unless I okay it with them. I never set up too close unless they don't mind. I always ask. This should be standard behavior for all photographers. Workshop leaders inparticular must remember that student photographers are in your class to learn by example. What are you teaching your students with rude behavior and copycat photography?

[louie]

I can't say that I've had this experience. A couple of times photographers have asked

me to stay in their shot because I added scale. Usually, if I arrive at a prime spot and

there's a bunch of tourists with point and shoots behind me, I'll step aside for a bit to

let them get their shots. When I was at Katmai, the lower platform was filled with

photographers with tripods and telephotos. If I had to change film or lenses or

nothing special was going on, I'd be sure to let other people step in and snap their

shots. I was spending hours at a time hanging out at that spot, so it didn't hurt me

any to let others get in.

 

In other cases, I've always worked cooperatively with other photograhers. For

example, Antelope Canyon can get pretty crowded with photographers, but

everybody was pretty good about letting each other know when we had an open

shutter - people would just wait until you got your shot. At other places, people

usually didn't just set up at one place for that one shot. Photograhers tend to move

around and try different angles and compositions. If anybody really was waiting for a

specific moment, I've never seen anybody fail to move if they were politely asked.

Asking somebody to stay out of a particular area for an extended period of time

doesn't sound quite fair to me, though.

 

I've been at Ox Bow bend, and I don't see why that group couldn't just find another

spot. It's not like you're unreasonably restricted in that area. And really, what shot are

they gonna get down there that hasn't been done before and by better

photographers?

 

If it was me, I'd have waited until I got the shot I wanted, and then moved on. If I

could accomodate them for a time before my shot, I'd move and come back. I

wouldn't have stayed for the entire sunrise, as I simply don't stay in one spot for too

long. I'd probably be less inclined to be accomodating if the photo group was being

obnoxious about it.

 

As for yelling at the boaters - that's just plain

wrong. Their activities on the river are just as valid as anybody else's. Photographers

don't have any special rights above anybody else in the parks.<div></div>

[alex_lofquist]

One of the top nature/travel photographers in our camera club has a way to avoid some confrontations with the P&S groups. He will usually be with a few of his friends at the side of the road, perhaps photographing bear or moose. If they see a tour bus coming , they will all turn their cameras in the opposite direction. The tourists will debark and perhaps photograph in that direction assuming there was really something worthwhile, then pile back in the bus and quickly leave. The fellows will then resume shooting the original subject. I understand that they get quite a few laughs to brighten the often overcast day.

[steve_levine]

Travel in the off season,use your center digit raised in a salute....

[cynthia_bauer1]

Thank you for all of your responses. To finish this story, this young photographer probably did not get her picture as she packed up and moved on. We later ran in to her a short distance down the road, crying in her car. She said a few photographers from the organized group had stopped by and apologized for the group's behavior, and said it would be the last time they ever went with an organized photo workshop.

[michael gordon httpwww]

This kind of stuff is to be expected when you're shooting roadside from the same tripod holes that thousands before you have used.

 

Go for a walk and do something different. I have never had such an encounter, and rarely even see other people.

[phule]

<< and said it would be the last time they ever went with an organized photo workshop. >>

 

I hope that the group in question is not representative of photo workshops as a whole. I'm going to be participating in my first one this fall. I know that I would never behave so rudely and I certainly hope my other workshop shooters would be equally civil.

[christian deichert]

I've had my share of shooting in crowded spaces. I will typically ensure that I set up somewhere off to the side, out of folks' way, but I take my time. If I am in the way I will move, but I typically stay out of the way. I have never been treated the way you described the group treating the young photographer, and the actions of that group disgust me. I am 6'1, 210 lbs, and if any group treated me like that, they would have second thoughts real quick.

 

Have to say, though, that as much as I enjoy seeing some of the more popular spots and shooting them, I really enjoy having less-seen, out-of-the-way places to myself. In one day at Arches National Park, I shot three major locations: sunrise at the Windows, later morning at Tower Arch, and sunset at Delicate Arch. Sunset at Delicate Arch was crowded, even in freezing temperatures in February. I had a much better time at dawn at the Windows, where I had to share my location with two other photographers but we stayed out of each other's way. By far, though, I had the best time at Tower Arch -- I met people coming out as I hiked in, I met people coming in as I hiked out, but I had the place to myself for hours. At one point I lay down on my back on the rock and took a nap in the sun for two hours, my blissful snores doubtlessly echoing off the sandstone.

[pontus_gustavsson]

New addition to my camera bag: Ear muffs.

[greg s]

I got a chuckle reading about Rose-Marie's Corkscrew Swamp experience. Something I've noticed with some people (not all) roaming around with big telephotos is they act like they're on a mission from God. There can be a tendency to get too involved in the process... Corkscrew is a busy place and patience is needed, not to mention basic manners.

 

My wife has ID'd a guy with a 500mm who drives way too fast around the loop at our NWR, obviously looking to photograph specific glamour birds to the exclusion of everything else (including manners). It would be comical if he weren't so agressive and rude in his quest.

[david_henderson]

Do we know the name of the person running the tour? Is there

any reason why they shouldn't be up here in lights (red ones) so

that those people who feel offended by this behaviour can

choose to avoid them?