As a Student finishing up my BFA (bachelors of fine arts) degree, what MF is best for me?

[dan_lovell]

As a Fine Art student wieghting my education in Photography, I am

looking to get out of the trap that 35mm has led me into. I enjoy

the versatility of roll film, but I am debating on which is best for

me. I want to get a more detailed image. I shoot mainly black and

white film, but occasionally go to color, which doesn't make that

much difference in the camera. I am interested in something used as I

still have to be able to afford my own tuition, but I really dont

want to stoop to an inferior quality lens or camera for that matter.

I hear a lot of fuss as zeiss optics are far superior, but I have

heard the same about Nikon over pentax in 35mm, but I have proven to

my professors that pentax is just as competetive at times. This time

I want to get something of higher quality than what I own in 35mm, so

My question leads to what would really make a difference in quality,

a Hassy 500cm, Mamiya RB67, Bronica ETRSi or Kowa Super 66? What

will last longest with minimal repair? What will give me the greater

bang for the buck, Keep in mind I am looking for used equipment, I

cannot afford an extra $4000 from my wallet.

 

From the messages I have read on all of these options, I have found

myself more confused than prior. I have heard good reviews as well

as poor reviews. I need something reliable that has the tendency to

last.

 

If you have any other suggestions for camera format please let me

know, I am in the boat of believing that larger is better, but large

format just doesnt leave me with the versatility I need, but the

quality is what i really desire, I am a freak for film grain, If I

can sense the slightest bit of grain, I believe my image is too

large, so I have been shooting Ilford pan-f film to avoid grain as

much as possible, My intention of going to a larger format is to

shoot a faster speed film on a larger format to have the ability to

make my images larger. I do a lot of Close-up Photography as both

portrature as well as Close-up in landscape. The way in which i work

varies, At times I even desire to have perspective control of a large

format. Are there any MF cameras that include perspective control,

and are they reasonable? I also stop way down in order to get the

most detail possible, with MF lenses, are there any that go beyond

f22? can I obtain F45 or greater using any MF lenses?

Thankyou for at least reading this, Dan

[david_goldfarb]

For the long term, if you're looking to medium format, I'd narrow down that list to Hassy or RB. There is a lot of that equipment around; it's easy to rent lenses in major cities or find repair anywhere in the world; and both provide a path to digital if you should want it for some particular job at some point.

 

Set aside the issue of "quality" for the moment. Both are fine systems that have made great images. If you come to the conclusion on your own experience that only Zeiss will do, then follow that path, but that doesn't strike me as the main difference between these systems.

 

Do you like the square or the rectangle? A Hassy is more comfortable as a handheld camera and an RB a little less so, but plenty of people have used Hasselblads in the studio, and some use the RB handheld.

 

You mention perspective control. Fuji 6x8 would give you that in a limited way, but if you're shooting landscapes or architecture or tabletop still life, maybe you should be thinking large format. If you prefer rollfilm, a 4x5" with a rollfilm back is easy enough to do, and you have the built-in option of 4x5" if you need it. If you want minimum grain and maximum enlargability, that also points to LF, and if you want maximum control over focus, that again points to LF. Check out lfphoto.info to see how to get started.

 

Chances are, you'll eventually shoot a variety of formats. Each has its own uses.

[jose f.]

How about one of the Calumet monorails, a decent 90 mm lens and a rollfilm back?

 

That ought to fit a student pocket and give you an easy step up to 4x5 --- which is where it looks like you're headed anyway. Then you can get f/90 and things like that.

 

Otherwise, there are good deals on Mamiya RZ and RB cameras, and on the recently-discontinued Bronica SQ-B.

 

But the Calumet might be cheaper and definitely more flexible. There are a couple 2 1/4x 3 1/4 monorails and field cameras out there as well.

 

Seems like your school should have some equipment available and the profs should be able to offer advice.

[jonathan_brewer1]

This question is asked in different form on a regular basis, if you've audited the responses from when this question has been asked before, and you haven't gotten what you wanted, then go to Photographyreview.com which includes reviews of most of the top tier cameras by users of those cameras, I've found these reviews to be pretty straigtforward with the benefit listening to a photographer who's stayed married to a camera for a considerable period with consderations of the plus and minuses of a camera over the long haul, as opposed to other venues where you get the bias and preference of folks who quickly divorced a camera they didn't like after a very short period of time.

 

There is nothing wrong with taking a quick dislike to a camera, and no sense in using something you can stand, but as I get older I consider gear less in the vein of a beauty contest and more in terms of dependability and the cameras cost effectiveness off warranty.

 

Instead of suggesting a bunch of stuff I'll give you thoughts about your statement, no offense but you want can't be given to you by one camera, what part of what you want could be given to you would you settle for, and can you track down that particular camera for your budget? What you say you want to me suggest two cameras, maybe one now, one later.

 

Quit thinking about a Kowa 66, Ross Yerkes who worked on some of my cameras says the shutter is totally sensitive to dirt/dust, there are no parts, when it quits the only thing it will be good for is as a rock to be thrown at a mugger. Ironically Ross says that this is a good camera, but it is a dead end.

 

What everbody advises and I totally agree with is that you're going to have to research this, play/rent/handle/borrow/shoot with different cameras and this is going to take you time, weaning out impulse buying/beauty contest/eliminating what you lust for as opposed to what you really need, and when I say this to you I'm speaking from personal experience, when I impulse buy, lust after a beautiful body, get excited about the newest widget, I've been sorry.

 

The best thing I did was take two years to research LF, because of the wait, I swayed back and forth until things became clear, I researched and waited and eventually the gear that I wanted found me, I've come to the conclusion that there is no getting around this process, wait, research, handle the gear, think about it, wait some more, and buy for the long haul with gear that you really want, that is gear you keep/and helps you do your best work.

[conrad_hoffman]

Everything you want to do points to large format and the answers given above make a lot of sense. I'd only add one thing- you'll evolve and your needs will change. This isn't a forever decision. I'd pick up an inexpensive LF setup, and maybe experiment with various MF cameras as you can get access to them. Whatever you do, buy things either very cheaply, or buy things that will hold their value for when you want to go in a new direction.

[NetR]

What Conrad said! Your tastes will inevitably change with time. Right now it looks as though you are heading towards wanting the quality and controls possible with large format, which would also suit your subject matter and vision. So whatever MF you buy, get it second-hand so the cost of moving on is not too high.

 

Good luck, regards, Ross

[dale_dickerson2]

If this were 1972, I would be saying a Crown Graphic with a 120 back and Schneider optics or a old classic Ektar lens. In 2003, it still is the closest to your want list, but the cameras are over 25 years old.

 

A Rolleiflex 600x camera should be given some thought on your list.

 

If you want to own the camera and simply try out MF photography, you could purchase a new Kiev 88CM kit. It is all manual, and not a heavy use system, but lenses are cheap, a new pc lens is under $1000 or even under $500 depending on contol level. The optics will not be the equal of Zeiss or Schneider, but not that much worst. Its cost means you can play around with different focal length lenses and see what they do first hand. A set of lenses from Fisheye to 300mm will not break the bank.

[steve_rasmussen]

You should really come over and read the threads in the Pentax 67 area of Photo.net. The lenses, in general are excellent with a number of f/32 lenses and even some f/45(90-180 zoom, 300mm Takumar and the larger telephotos). The bodies and prisms are better than their 35mm Pentax brethren, in my opinion. Excellent quality at a fair price, equals a great value for this system.

[OCULUS New York]

Hi Dan, Having switched to MF just a year and a half ago (after 3 years of high end Olympus digital, Nikon point and shoot w/ED lens, Leica SL2, and Canon AE) I note your concern for lens quality and offer a couple of suggestions.

 

First, you are switching at a great time for MF or LF pricing; digi trade-up has done the market in, and is what lured me. Being middle aged, I had some money to invest, and I went for Rolleiflex 6003 Pro (new), found some great new lenses on sale after a dot.com failure, and have picked up a range of used stuff off ePrey since then.

 

As a back up, I thought long and hard and decided to go with the all mechanical Pentacon Six TL that takes wonderful Carl Zeiss Jena (E. German) lenses that are about 20 cents on the dollar of what their Oberkochen brethren run (no shutters in them, but equally great glass and construction). I amassed a good camera, 80 mm 2.8 lens, 50mm, 120mm, 180mm and finally a Russian Arsat 30mm fisheye. Plus I finally found an uninstalled upgrade kit that included a Rollei focus screen, and a calibrated Kiev 66 metered prism. All this totaled about $1200, over this past summer.

 

Late in the summer, an eBay windfall of a very nice Rolleiflex SLX, II, with 80mm, 50mm, and 250mm, with 45 prism, pistol grip, flash, etc. fell into my lap. So, I decided that because the lenses of my old and new Rolleis interchanged, I just didn't need another whole camera kit, and bag of lenses, even though it was all mechanical, and I wasn't afraid to leave it in the car. The SLX covered that nicely, so now, I have a wonderful range of Zeiss/Schneider top quality lenses.

 

In total, I have about the same amount in the SLX, including a monster 350mm that I recently bought. In sum, you can buy top of the line, used stuff reasonably now. And I mean amateur, cared-for equipment, as opposed to pro war-horses. And I don't see the value of these lenses sliding any further down--ever.

 

I attach here the link to my Pentacon kit; the camera and macro set are sold, (about $400 as upgraded) but the lenses are gonna go for <$300 each. So, keep it in mind, but if you decide to go for the Pentacon, I HIGHLY recommend upgrading the screen, at a minimum; it makes it a whole new camera. And you can do it yourself in about 5 minutes. HOwever, the Practika factory in Dresden will gladly do this for you and overhaul the camera too for about $300! Try that with any other brand! Serious German machinery, in an Amazon 35 mm configuration that takes wonderful shots with several Zeiss lenses...for about a grand.

 

http://www.photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=317478

 

The original Rollei Pile is pictured on the mahogany sideboard--about $800 as you see it). If your $4000 budget materializes, I would strongly suggest the later Rollei 6000 line; with HFT coated lenses and probably the best metering system on the market, it's hard to go wrong. Then, you can graduate to the PQ series auto lenses and upwards, gradually. And that includes a perspectice control/shift Schneider lens (just got one of those off eBay too).

 

Lots of EURO options are available, where the value tends to stay...Good luck, have fun.

 

Ray Hull

[db1]

No question...go for Hasselblad. It will withstand a lifetime of use and (some) abuse.

[stan_strembicki]

I think you'l find at f16, most MF lenes will look pretty good, the real issue for

you should be long term reliability, ease of repair, parts etc. The good news,

prices very flat and some great deals out there. I agree with previous post, for

someone like you, consider the Pentax 67, avoid Kowa, its a dead end

camera. IMHO, I think Bronica will be there soon. I've had lots of students buy

RB's and most trade them after a year, they are great studio cameras, but are

heavy, clunky, load in the field.

[george_rhodes]

Dan,

 

I agree with Steve, that you might want to consdier the Pentax 67 system. You say you are a freak for grain. The 6X7 format will give you an image about one third larger than the 645 format, which means a third smaller grain. You say you are looking for a perspective controp lens. Pentax makes an excellent 75mm (equivalent to about 35mm in 35mm format) perspective control lens for the 67. There are also two excellent zooms available for the Pentax 67, lots of wide angles, two macros and even telephotos up to 800mm. Pentax lenses are excellent performers. The camera and lenses are built very rugged and take a lot of abuse. You can pretty much find anything for the Pentax 67 system used on ebay, just about any day you look, at very reasonable prices. The system has been around for many years. You may want to check out the Pentax forum.

[hendrik]

Dan,

 

I can't agree more. I have used Canon, Nikon and Pentax in 35mm.

Rollei and Contax in MF.

Sinar 4x5 and 8x10 in LF.

 

The quality difference is more profound the larger the format and therefore the lens quality becomes more important.

 

I don't care what who says, Zeiss,Shneider & Rhodenstock is GREAT.

 

Get a good Rolleiflex, start saving for a Zeiss equiped MF that can be used with a digital back in future, and when you have you own studio - invest in a LF.

 

The Contax 645 I use have endless possibilities and a great aray of lenses. The 120Macro is also a wonderfull Portrait lens, and the 35 and 45mm are great for landscapes (the minimum app. is f32)

 

Enjoy

[chris_waller]

You might also consider the Mamiya C330 S TLR which is a very flexible, robust and reliable machine.

[b_kosoff]

Dan,

From what you have described I think that MF is the way to go for you, MF is

the most versatile and best compromise between the quality of LF and speed

an portability of 35mm. Which MF system you choose is dependant on many

factors. As i have used or owned most MF systems I'll list some comments on

each, whether you choose 6x6, 6x7, etc, is dependant on whether you "see"

in square format or rectangle;

 

6x6 choices: These cameras also do 6x4.5

Hasselblad-

Light weight, good optics, wide distribution, rentals galore, cheap used gear

galore. As you do macro work the zeiss 120mm is your only available lens

here.

 

Rolleiflex 600x series:

Much heavier weight, but includes advanced built in metering and motor

drive. The built in meter works well with macro shots. Better optics than

hasselblad as Rolleiflex includes nearly the entire Zeiss lens line, but also

has a large line of fantastic schenider lenses. The choices for macro include

Schneider 90mm APO Makro (great lens), Zeiss 120mm macro and the

Schneider 150 APO makro which requires a bellows but is an awesome lens.

The rolleflex is not widely distributed and will be hard to find rentals for. In my

opinion, and i used hassy for 25 years, the rollei is a superior camera system.

Used Rollei gear is available, but not nearly to the same degree as

hasselblad. Rollei also has a superior film back system.

 

Bronica and Kowa, are simply cameras would not consider. I owned a

bronica and was not impressed with it. Kowa is a dead end, forget about

parts, forget about digital for the kowa

 

6x7 format;

Pentax 6x7

A giant 35mm camera basically. A good value, but lacks interchangeable

backs which means no eventual upgrade path to digital. Giant focal plane

shutter not the best way to do macro work.

 

 

mamiya RZ- big, heavy requires a tripod, but then again you should never

really handhold ANY SLR MF camera. The larger negative is an advantage to

be sure if you are looking to make larger prints. If you intend to stay small with

the prints, under 6x magnification, you'll see little difference between 6x6,6x7

and 6x4.5. The lenses are good and there is an extensive lens line. Also the

Mamiya is widely available used and as rentals. if you are ok with the weight

and size of the mamiya RZ you may want to consider the:

 

6x8 format;

Fuji GX680 series:

Big, I mean big and heavy. After using this camera a hasselblad feels like a

matchbox car. This is a camera primarily designed for the studio but as I use it

extensively in the field i can say that it is very workable. the film is quite a bit

larger than the other 6x formats, 56mm (6x6) 65mm (6x7) versus 78mm (6x8).

This camera has modest lens movements, shift, tilt, swing combined with SLR

handling and a motor driven film advance. For lenses of 180mm or greater, I

use LF lenses. For macro work you could use the 180mm Rodenstock macro

LF lens, the 240mm APO Ronar and others. You will need to add a rail and

extended bellows to do this. This camera is is short supply and will be hard to

find in it's most current model, gx680III on the used market.

The older models are available and show up on ebay frequently. This is not

an easy to find camera either new , used or rental. Only serious pro suppliers

carry this stuff.

 

I have not talked about the dedicated 6x4.5 cameras as i have little

experience with them and the 6x6 cameras can also work in this format. i

have left out the rangefinder MF cameras as they are all unworkable as macro

cameras.

 

Regarding f45, the only lenses that i would shoot at f 45 are LF camera

lenses. MF lenses are not optimized anywhere near that small an aperture

and diffraction would be a serious problem. If you must have f45, then the

Fuji6x8 using LF lenses might be the best way to go. But with ANY lens, f 45 is

a compromise on quality.

[bob_salomon]

"what MF is best for me?"

 

How can anyone, other then you, answer this?

 

Get yourself down to a camera store or two - if you are earning an BFA in photo there

are stores near you somewhere. Or go to your school's cage and get your hands on

some equipment.

 

What feels right for you? are you right or left handed?, Large or small? right eyed or

left eyed? Prefer square or rectangular? Need speed or not? Need interchangeable

lenses or not? Shoot fill flash or not?

 

What will you do with a BFA?

 

Shoot weddings? Portraits, Teach? Landscapes? News? Sports? Industrial? Commercial?

School Portraits? Only you can answer such a basic and such a silly question. You

don't and shouldn't care what works best for someone else. It is you you have to

please. And since it is your money a little checking on your own would make the most

sense.

 

The answers you get here are not really answers. They are mostly justifications of

someone else's choice.

[andrea_browne]

Fuji GX680.

[dan_lovell]

I really apreciate all of the answers I have gotten, Thanks everyone. I have looked into some of what you have mentioned, and I find that it is useful. And as for the questions coming back to me, I guess the question was really, what will last, with the least repair, and i have gotten that question answered as well. I am going to try to find a few of these cameras to check out. I like square format most and with 35mm that is a lot of cropping, but cropping isnt bad if it is what is intended. Weight is not that big of a deal, all of my shooting is done via tripod anyway, so something big and bulky isnt that big a deal, and LF is too bulky and not as mobile. Ideally I think LF will become sought after, but as of now, I have a need for mobility. Thank you all again for your help. As for trying them out here at my school, I am at a dinky VT State College, which has a tendency to be limited on budget as to what it can purchase for student use, so we have to supply ourselves with equipment. Thanks, Dan

[cxc]

Consider a Fuji GW690 or GSW690, depending on whether you want normalish or wide-angle. This will maximize your film acreage with a minimum of change from 35mm technique. Close down the lens, and use a tripod, for every single shot, and you should be able to print big.

 

CXC

[tariq_gibran]

You may also wish to look for an older used Rolleiflex sl66. This camera offered the

modular SLR design, similar to a Hasselblad 500 series but with belows and the ability

to tilt the lens up and down 8 degrees as well as mount the lens in reverse for

extreme close ups. All mechanical and Great Zeiss lenses as well. Heres a link for

more info: http://www.sl66.com/sl66_models_sl66.htm

This would be smaller than the RB-RZ-Fuji 680 route but larger than the Hasselblad

and a little bit more cumbersome to hand hold. In person, the camera looks larger

than you might expect. For the best set up for the money, I think it's hard to beat a

Hasselblad 500CM kit which I use and love. You may also wish to check out the

Bronica GS as its more compact and hand holdable than the RB/RZ but still gives you

the large nice 6x7 size. Great lenses as well. In fact, I think it would be hard to really

choose between Mamiya/Zeiss/Bronica/Pentax as far as quality goes. The best of the

newer(last 10-15 yrs) Mamiya and Bronica glass is on par with zeiss glass. I had a

Mamiya 6 with a 50 which I actually tested against a Zeiss 50 CF-FLE and the Mamiya

was sharper. I have seen results from both Pentax 67 and Bronica GS which also blew

me away. Pentax 67 may also be anther option for you if you don't need interch.

backs. Sounds like you definately need an SLR with what your shooting though so you

would most likely want to pass on the great TLR and Rangefinder(Mamiya 6/Fuji 690/

670) bargains out there.

[carbonado]

Yeah, all this is great advice. But it's about as exiciting as a turnip. It's blah blah blah. Everyone's heard it all before.

 

I have but one word: Holga 120.

 

Buy one, stock up with film, forget everything you've learned in college, break the rules, and have fun.

[andy_buck1]

Dan -

If you like square, an old rolleiflex (3.5E, maybe) can't be beat for quality/cost ratio. On even just plain quality, it's hard to beat.

 

Carbonado -

Holga 120 is 2 words <s>.

[mr._kenny]

rollei 6000 series for me. 6006 + 150 + 80 + 50 + 2 backs = $2000 or so. easy to use. spend more money/thought on your studio lights -- i'd recommend profoto, at least 1200 w/s for portraiture with a MF camera, and you sound like an f16 kinda guy -- maybe 2400 w/s for 2 heads. monolights are cool if you are starting out, but you'll want the big pack sooner or later, better to get it sooner. also get a camera stand, you can't knock it over tripping over sync cords. and a good stereo, you'll need it for the long hours you'll be putting in in the next few years.

[david_henderson]

I sometimes disagree with Bob Salomon, but not this time. Your

list of candidates includes all the main MF formats. To make

this decision you really should decide what shape of image you

want to produce and narrow the field down. This isn't a reliability

issue, it's how you see your photography. If you can't decide

whether you want the bulk of your images to be square or

angular or something in between then quite simply you shouldn't

be making this decision yet because no-one here will be able to

solve that one for you.

 

Let me also have a word about reliability. If you're told that

camera x is very reliable, that may be true for the marque on

average, but does that mean that all the individual cameras of

that type perform the same? I suggest not. What it means is

that some cameras of that type have never malfunctioned, and

others may have broken down a lot. In short you can't easily tell

from overall reliability performance whether your specific camera

(or car or whatever) will be reliable or not. Even the supposedly

reliable brands have individual examples where the reliablility

performance is abysmal, and the reverse is also true. Better

really to buy something where the repair shop is convenient and

competent, so that if you do happen to get a bad one -which can

happen with any brand- it will get sorted quickly.

 

Medium format lenses are not, generally speaking "better" than

35 mm lenses btw. MF cameras make bigger images and it's

that extra size and consequent smaller enlargement that gives

you better sharpness and less grain visibility. Grain shouldn't

be much of an issue if you choose the right films or unless you

want to make some extremely large prints.

[mskovacs]

If you are planning to buy into a large & expensive system like Hasselblad and you think there is any chance that you will do commercial photography in the future (i.e. not fine art), then you should consider a system that will work with a digital back. Yes these backs are likely far outside of your reach but you need to future proof yourself to some degree if you want to make a career out of photography.

 

The other approach is to get a cheap enough camera that it won't matter. Many of the suggestions above fit the bill. For me that meant a Rolleiflex. I think for you, the suggestion to get a LF camera is a good one.

 

As for detail, I had the chance to view some platinum 8x10 contact prints at the Banff Springs Hotel in August and WOW!