Leica wide opened in action scenes<---no good?

[travis1]

hi..title is a little misleading.

 

Imagine a scene where u need f2 for the film with your M body. The

bride is walking down the asle(sp??) towards you and you have to say

snap the sequence. You can't use zone focussing at say f2 so you keep

turning the lens to focus and you hope you get some in. A AF camera

would have almost got every frame sharply in.

 

No, Im not bashing the M or any manual camera, I just find it

difficult to follow the focus in wide opened situations where people

mve around quickly and you're trying your best to catch up.

 

This being the nature of manual cameras as it is, I am hoping to hear

some of the techniques you use to fight this problem. This is not a

Leica vs anythign question, please. Leica lenses are great, so if I

can master this little nuance, I 'd be very happy.

 

Some press photographers using the M here may wanna share some

techniques to use to follow focus accurately and quickly..

 

 

Could be as simple as "just learn to focus, quickly."

 

But sometimes don't you think an AF should just be the tool for these

situations?

 

merry Christmas.

[roger_shrader]

Set the focus prior to the object, and let it come into focus as it advances.

[roger_shrader]

Sorry, let me elaborate. Adjust the lens to a focal distance of say ten feet; as the bride advances from a further distance, she will literally walk into focus when she reaches ten feet. Just be ready to press the shutter when she reaches the focal plane.

[travis1]

Roger, thanks, but that means only one shot in and then adjust focus again. That's where I have problems. SOme shots worth taking are just OOF when I try to get a sequence of snaps. Perhaps it all boils down to the technique and quickness(or slowness) of my focussing techniques.

 

Say in a crowded scene in a temple where people just zoom pass you. Certain facial expressions I try to capture at low light f2 often falls OOF. I can wait at one focus spot but I only capture what is given at that spot. To hunt them down is often a headache. IMO.

 

Often times I feel a f80 would do the thing nicely. ;)

[m_.]

Sure, AF might work better in this but once you get used to your Leica and especially the lens you use the most often, you get pretty quick with the focus. That's another reason you use only one lens and you can do the focus and camera adjusting even when you are asleep. I normally pre-adjust the lens focus to the approximate distance and only turns it a small distance before clicking away. Always prepare a few more to follow just in case.

 

However, you do miss shots from time to time. but photography is all about surprises - most times terrible but once in a while you get that one.

[m_.]

and travis, a few times when i have to cover weddings for friends, i do take an n80 with a Tamron AF 20-40mm zoom with me for the exact reasons you mentioned. although i consider myself to be fairly quick in operating my m6 and 35/1.4 system.

 

 

Another way I do is to go really wide (21mm with M) and just shoot...<div></div>

[________1]

Measure a string ten feet in length. Tie the string around the subject�s waist; keeping the string taunt, stand back ten feet. Don�t forget to focus the camera to ten feet. Shoot, shoot, shoot. Every shot will be sharp as a tack.

[ellis_vener_photography]

<I>Sorry, let me elaborate. Adjust the lens to a focal distance of say ten feet; as the

bride advances from a further distance, she will literally walk into focus when she

reaches ten feet. Just be ready to press the shutter when she reaches the focal

plane.</I><P> what if she is blinking when she hits the distance you have focused

on/ or is looking away? My pont is on I make all the time: "Professional

photographers get paid for producing great pictures, not excuses." Otherwise you are

working for Miracle Studio, whose slogan is : "If the picture is good, it's a miracle."

[fotografz]

A/F, even with tracking isn't an iron clad guarantee you'll get in focus pix at f/2 or

wider. But it does mean you may have a better chance.

 

Per your wedding example: there is a reason why procession shots are usually with

flash and a more forgiving aperture (f/5.6 or 8).

[james mitchell dc]

Sorry to be late, but I'm happy to see that Travis got his Hero icon. He is a great guy.

[jay_.]

People tout Leicas as being ideal for quick candid shots, and extol the virtues of its fast lenses shot wide open. Both may be true, independently, but from 35+ years of using Leicas, my experience has convinced me it's next to impossible to get more than one sharp shot off trying to do both. Marc is correct that even the best AF system (IMO the 45-point of the EOS 1V/EOS3)isn't a foolproof solution but it runs laps around a Leica.

[tom h.]

Hey, I just noticed- long overdue (re hero icon).

 

Tom

[roger_shrader]

Wow, you folks are pretty rigid. I would not expect every shot to be in focus, even with an AF camera. That is unrealisitc. 10 feet was an example. Let me explain...

 

I was just trying to make a basic point: you don't always have to rely on a focus ring to do all of the work. You can let the object move into a preset focal point(my first example), you can move to and from the object, and you can adjust focus on the lens. At F2, moving the camera forward or back one foot would be enough to throw something in and out of focus with never having to move the focus ring (lean into it, or lean away and watch for the moment of focus and snap). Why does that not seem to be a beneficial point to make? Combine all three, and you have a pretty flexible system of focusing. Of course you do have to be focused within the general range of that distance. Use the force. Practice. I must be crazy for thinking this way. Oh well, it seems to work for me.

 

Well, remember this; if you use AF and miss that special 1/4 second long opportunity for a smile shot, you can blame it on the camera's slow and inaccurate AF system.

[roberto_watson_garc_a]

Dificult, have you tried using a motor drive, nothing to do with focus, but not have to wind may help to concentrate on focusing, or use faster film to get wider DOF. sorry if this is too obious.

 

Another one: lock your focus to the distance you want and backwalk before your subject making a frame as you match focus.

 

Tab mastering is another not less dificult solution.

 

Think that at the end there´s mostly one picture tha´s going to be "the one", but I understand what you´re after for.

[jamiew]

There are reasons so many pro wedding photographers use 35mm/Digital SLR's. The others use MF and I have been to numerous weddings where the photographer has to ask the couple to stage certain events to get the shot. The photos turn up excellent, but man does it put a damper on the flow of the wedding.

[wai_leong_lee]

You got to choose the right tool for the job. Leica's are not good for sports, wildlife, fast action, and apparently for wedding strolls down the aisle.

 

If you can't focus the Leica fast enough to use it for the walk down the aisle, don't use the Leica. There are ways around the problem, which other contributors have highlighted, but they may be inferior compared to a fast AI autofocus.

 

Use the Leica for the "mood" shots, use the SLR for action/long tele shots.

[kelly_flanigan1]

Use a Russian Lennigrad; and a 50mm F2 LTM Nikkor (new 50mm F2 LTM Summicron wont fit Lennigrad). The super loud Russian shutter will cause the bride and groom to slow down; and look directly at you; the photographer. Place a bunch of super glue on the aisle; to get the bride and groom stuck at the 10 feet mark. At 3 frames per second; your chances of getting a frame is better than one single "roll of the dice" shot :)<BR><BR><BR>As kids we threw cans in the air; and shot them with BB guns. Shooting a F2 with a rangefinder; with a moving object requires practice; but still will have a low yield. <BR><BR>Maybe a 4x5 camera; at F22; and a bulb flash!:)<BR><BR>Many of todays digital users like the super wide DOF that arises with P&S digitals.<BR><BR>A friends wedding; they went so fast up and down the aisle; that nobody got any shots worth a flip. There was no decent rehearsal; and they dimmed the lights during the aisle trip. interesting.

[henry_ting2]

I've read somewhere (maybe I can provide a link if I found it), that Nikon is in the works for building a sensor in the eyepiece that will measure the photographer's eyeball and will interact with the AF to lock into the focus zone based on that data. Imagine all one has to focus is look at the subject and the lens automatically selects the focal range.

[steve_barnett2]

Henry, Canon have had that in their top end cameras for years.

 

Travis, it is a problem, especially if you expect to get more than one in focus picture. A lot of good advice has been given. Apart from the obvious solution, which is use an AF SLR with focus tracking, I did use Leica M for low light pictures in my days as a theatre/Press photographer. I always took the pictures at the last dress rehearsal, for publication the following day, and had easy access to all areas around the stage. One of the keys to getting sharp pictures at f2 was to know your ground, know where the steps are, know where you will fall off the stage, over the Director, a bucket and brush, etc. And learn to walk backwards in the dark. In many places like this it is easier to move yourself and keep shooting at a set focus distance than adjust the focus tab. This way you match both the speed of the person you are photographing, and their direction. In public this is more difficult, but again having a good look around for things to avoid falling over is essential. The main point about moving with the subject of course is that the composition remains the same and is not affected by the subject getting closer. Look at Press photographers in action, and even with modern zoom lenses they pan and move to keep their subject at its optimum size. And if you have a friend/assistant with you they can be the eyes in the back of your head, steering you away from stairs and pot plants while you snap away.

[karl_georg_wolf]

Lot´s of good advise above!

 

In case I have to take a photo (with either M or R-LEICA or any other manual camera) of somebody approaching me, the only method which really works IMO is prefocussing.

 

I focus on a certain spot on the floor and release the camera (min. 1/60 sec., lens wide open if necessary)) once the person has reached the point, better a tiny bit before because of timelag. At least I got one spot on picture that way instead of fiddeling around with no end and with poor results.

 

Moving with the party is a great idea. Works for real pros not for a small amateur like me ...

 

Best regards

[andrew_hull]

Contax g2?

[bobflores]

I hate to state the obvious, but you could:

 

Use a flash...(and therefor greater depth of field).

 

Use faster film (see above)

 

Practice focussing on moving objects (it's tricky, but not THAT difficult)

 

I have to say that capturing something with a very shallow depth of field in low light that is moving would be a challenge for ANY camera (auto focus or not). At f2, even an autofocus camer with infrared sensors for focussing is likely to catch the wrong focal point and still give you a fuzzy photo.

 

The real truth is that wedding photographers use SLRs, Digital cameras, and Autofocus cameras with FLASHES. The ambient light wedding photography that I've seen, whether done with a SLR or rangefinder, is usually of a static image, not something in motion.

 

f2 is a VERY difficult aperture to shoot a picture of a moving person with. At some distances and using some lenses, it will mean the difference between a nose or an eye being in focus. The reason I gave up on my Nikon was becase in low light situations, shot wide open, the autofocus would choose the wrong part of the person's face to focus on. With a rangefinder, I can choose between eyes, nose, mouth, ears etc...

 

If I absolutely had no choice but to shoot at f2 (or 2.8) with no flash and was worried about focus, I'd shoot the longest lens I had and let my feet do the framing. With a 135mm lens and a good distance between you and the subject, so long as you are in the ball park, you'll have enough DOF to stay in reasonable focus.

 

In fact, I just shot a Christams pagent at a local church for a friend in exactly this situation. Stage lighting was nothing more than 60 watt bulbs on track lighting high above the stage and I was at the very back of the room so as not to disturb the performance. I used a 135mm lens with "goggles", set aperture at 2.8 and focus at near infinity and shot the whole performance handheld at about 1/30 of a sec. The photos came out pretty good considering the circumstances. I'd be happy to share them if you like.

[fotografz]

Travis, this is a good thread because the shot that plagues me most of all is the one I

care least about... but is essential in my wedding client's opinion... so I have to get it

every-time. It is indeed the stroll down the aisle.

 

Weirdly, I never missed it when shooting with a big clumsy, Hasselblad. That's

because I pre-focused it, used a D-40 FLASH and set f/5.6 or 8 aperture. Only after

starting to use an AF Canon did I start missing any procession shots in an attempt to

capture more ambient light using a wider open aperture. I don't know what it is,

maybe the herky-jerky cadence of the wedding party, that tricks the AF tracking, but I

went back to manual pre-focus, flash and more stopped down apertures. Arty ideals

in a pix isn't an excuse a bride wants to hear when she sees an OOF image of her and

her dad walking down the aisle.

[mskovacs]

The bride on the move is indeed a tough one to deal with using ambient lighting. At my wife's sister's recent wedding, I got some B&W ambient light shots by prefocusing on every other church pew and firing as the bride came into focus. I managed 6 shots with my fast motor drive, none with a candy-coated expression but she was falling apart and crying along the way.

 

Bob I agree with every point you made except one. What about manually focusing your SLR? (or touching-up focus with AF-S lenses) The issue I have with many AF cameras, split-image focusing aids and rangefinder patches is that you're stuck with focusing in the middle of the frame. If you need to recompose with a moving subject you're going to miss focus anyhow. On a plain matte screen with an SLR/TLR I can let the focus lie wherever I wish.

[charles_twiss1]

Now don't blow a gasket! I know how much you guys love your Leicas and I agree they are good. But there are better cameras around for this sort of work, especially weddings. Trying to do what you are doing, wide open aperture, moving subjects etc would be hard enough on any MF camera. Try it on a Hassleblad!

AF would not be foolproof. To focus on the chest at f2 would have the face unsharp due to the depth of field. (or lack of it!)But either AF, stop and pose or a flash shot with more DOF would be better than struggling to get it in focus. Especially looking at the picture produced....you have feet cut off, distortion and Leica or not, it still looks no more than a snapshot!