Metering question - Velvia 50 vs Velvia 100F - night photos

[lindsay_robb]

This is a continuation of a question I asked a few weeks ago really.

I hope I can explain it ok.

 

I purchased a used Pentax 645 manual. I put a role of Velvia 50

through it to test. Here are the important results for this question:

 

1. ISO 50 - underexposed

 

2. ISO 40(?) - slightly underexposed

 

I didn't test the camera at ISO 32 because I didn't think I would

have to. I have now put another roll of Velvia 50 through and I am

waiting for the results of ISO 32.

 

Assuming that I am happy with ISO 32 results:

 

1. I have ordered my first rolls of Velvia 100F but I will not have

time to test a roll before I leave for a trip next week. Would I

probably be right in assuming that Velvia 100F should be set at two

speeds slower as well for correct exposure? I know I should test it

but I don't have time!

 

2. How much can Provia 400 be pushed? I will be attending a night

festival with torches. I have purchased a decent flash (so I've been

told) but I have to work out how to use it this weekend. Should I

use the flash? I really would prefer just the torch light on

people's faces but I don't know if the Provia 400 will be fast enough

without a flash.

 

Please try to answer as many of these questions as you can! Thank

you!

[art_haykin]

Have your meter checked instead of mindlessly wasting film. Irrespective of the ISO, the meter should give correct readings, assuming, of course, you know how to use it. Shooting torch lit faces with a flash will destroy the effect.Meter the faces at 400. If it's not fast enough, figure on 800 and have it pushed 1 stop and/or take along some 800 film.I think you need to study up on ISO numbers and the basics of photography.

[lindsay_robb]

I don't really see why you think I don't know the basics of photography merely because I admitted that I don't know how to use my flash yet (I have never needed a flash in my photography before) and because I couldn't remember the ISO number between 32 and 50?

 

I already asked the question weeks ago about my results with the VElvia 50 and got quite a few responses. My question pretty much was "is this normal?". Everyone came back to me that time and made fun of my question or told me of course it was normal.

 

So tell me why I need to read up on photography basics and ISO numbers?

 

To be honest, I get very tired of people telling me I don't know what I am doing whenever I post a question on photo.net. If I knew all the answers then I wouldn't have any questions!!!

[ed_skibeki]

Lots of people on this forum regard questions as an opportunity to wax professorial... don't worry about it.

 

Velvia 50 is widely regarded as an actual 40 ISO film. Lots of people with accurately calibrated spot meters can't be completely wrong.

 

Velvia 100 is pretty much bang on 100 ISO. Interestingly, for low light work requiring long exposures it needs no reciprocity adjustment for exposures approaching 1 minute, whereas the 50 emulsion requires quite a bit of it (info available on Fuji web site)

[lindsay_robb]

Thanks for the useful answer Ernie!

 

I had heard that about many pros rating Velvia at 40 but since I was always happy with ISO 50 on my old GS645S and my EOS, I just found it alarming to have to set my new camera to ISO 32. Considering your comment about Velvia 100F, I suppose my best bet is to use ISO 100 and bracket well, at least for this trip.

 

I have read that about the reciprocity failure at 'short' long exposures. This will be helpful for my landscape shots. However, I attended this festival last year and I know for a fact that there is way too much movement for any type of long exposure. Plus there is definitely no room in the narrow streets for a tripod. I will be lucky to manouever my monopod in the crowd.

 

Therefore, I need a 120 film that will be able to handle low light (torch light - real torches not flashlights) photography shots, handheld at 1/60 or faster. Maybe this is the question I should have asked in the first place. Any suggestions?

[petteri_pavas]

Lindsay,

 

I have used 50 Velvia now for about ten years. Initially I had serious underexposure problems due to trying to expose it 1/3 stop under, a practise that worked with the other slide films I was using in the 80's.

 

Then I read somewhere, possibly Amateur Photographer that the recommeded speed setting for film was 40 ASA. I tried that and it worked. At that time used mostly the meter in camera, various Olympus OM's at that time.

 

A few years later I got an exposure meter, Minolta Flashmeter IV which I have used most of the time since. It works on principle of measuring light falling on the meter, NOT reflected light. With that system - I have now a Sekonic 508 - I have had no problems of getting the exposure correct setting it at 40 ISO.

 

There are however, differences among meters. Gossens from factory, based on my experience, give slightly different readings from Minoltas. In the beginning I corrected by internal adjustement the reading Sekonic gave to have it to correspond with Minoltas. It has worked.

 

The thing with Velvia 50 is that apart from, in my opinion being absolutely fantastic film, it takes a fair proportion of professionalism and experience to give out its best. I usually bracket 0, +1/2 and -1/2. Most often all of these are usable as pictures, but they are also clearly different in the way they look. The margin for correct exposure is very narrow and always with important pictures I bracket and choose afterwards which one I like most.

 

For me the 40 ISO setting works with Velvia 50 in bright daylight. In diffuse light like in solid gray overcast weather or mist and fog, however, I correct the reading usually about half a stop under, i.e. the exposure is somewhere between 50 and 64 ISO. If I don't do that the pictures will turn out looking overexposed.

 

So, based on what You write, I would recommend You to bracket a little bit at 1/2 or even 1/3 stop steps 1 - 2 stops both ways from measured (at 40 ISO) exposure. Try to be as consistent as possible with how Yuo determine the correct exposure, if using reflected light measurement method I would recommend having a grey card. This should give You indication where to set the film speed for Velvia 50 in Your system of exposure.

 

Velvia 100F I have used only this fall but so far my experience is that it is comfortably close to old Velvia to use, which Provia 100F was not, and the speed is really 100 ISO. This film seems less contrasty and so more forgiving in harsh light. Also I found out the hard way that underexposure by half a stop in diffuse light does not seem necessary. Your experience so far with Velvia 50 suggest Your measuring gives slightly lower readings than 40 ISO for film speed. If that is consistent, then I would imagine best speed rating for Velvia 100F for You might really be 80 ISO or thereabout. In any case, I would recommend bracketing as ever with a new film.

 

Provia 400 I have no real experience of. I would guess You catch the atmosphere best without flash, or just with a bit of fill into the faces. I have relatively fast lenses, e.g. a 1,4/35 mm in Leica M6 so I just use Velvia even in low light. Though in a situation You describe I would probably use Fuji G 800 colour negative film, I have very good experiences with that.

[mskovacs]

Well your shutter speeds are also going to depend on how fast your lenses are...probably not too fast in medium format. I agree that flash is going to ruin all of your torch light effects. If the event is meaningful, this probably isn't a good time to learn about flash... it can be difficult to master.

 

You are indeed wasting film since you can complete the test with 12 slides. Pick a medium toned subject in even, unchanging light and bracket exposures +2 to -2 around your metered reading in 1/3 stop increments (keep careful notes). Evaluate the slides side by side on a light table and pick the best exposed slide. That is the speed you should shoot at. ADVANTAGE: this takes film speed and meter variations into account, as well as your own sense of medium tone. I shoot my two Nikon F3's at -2/3 the rated ISO because they both seem to overexpose. I don't even know if I'm inadvertently shooting at ISO 40 with Velvia...don't really care either!

 

Shooting available light under "average conditions" indoors, I find 1/60 at f/2 with 800 speed film the norm. Have you considered using a fast print film? It will be difficult to nail exposures under those kind of conditions with slide film. Personally, most of my available light work is in B&W, although the Fuji 800 speed colour print films work well.

[lindsay_robb]

Actually, my first test roll was almost exactly as you described Mike. The Pentax 645 only brackets in half stops (the one thing I do not like about it so far).

 

I got back my second set of test shots tonight. A little confusing because some of the shots contradict the first roll (I am still getting the hang of the centre-weighted metering). But after much 'hmming' I think I will be setting things at ISO 40 for bright outdoor shots, which will probably be most everything I take.

 

Thanks for everyone's help. I believe that I will post my film type question separately in order to attract more attention. Cheers!

[robert_potts1]

The Velvia ISO speeds thing is confusing. Fuji intends V50 to be highly saturated. These colors tend to look unnatural to many people and shadows tend to block up fast, so they overexpose it. V100F is intended to be less saturated. I rate mine at ISO 100, but mavens of saturation may bump it up to ISO 125.

 

I read somewhere once about someone using an orange or red gel over a flash to capture faces around a campfire for a commercial shoot. I suspect that to make this work, you will need to phony up a light source or use a colored filter on your lens. At any rate, you will need to do some tests and maybe do something like this next year. Be careful to warn folks who you intend to photograph before you pop your flash in their eyes.

[m_.]

Lindsay:

 

It all depend on your shooting style, really. I rate my Velvia 50 at 50 and 100 at 125 sicne I prefer to have slight underexposure for punchy colors. I think you can go pretty safely with the rated ISOs for Velvia. Make sure you meter the highlights instead of shadows for slide, which you probably already knew.

[nick_wilson2]

I would add that it is HOW one meters that is relevant to the speed of a film in practice.

 

Velvia isn't a true 32 ISO film, so there might be something in the way you meter or a calibration problem. Maybe you are reading from too bright areas of the image, which will underexpose. This is fair enough if you are consistent, but you are losing speed.

 

Even with metered readings (especially with a spot meter), then the subtle choice of surface to meter from is relevant. Are your tests 'night shots'as implied? It is very easy to underexpose them, if metering from bright lights.

 

Velvia is a saturated film. I have always rated it at 50, but know others rate it lower. But some of that is to desaturate the film, which is less relevant now with Provia having such fine grain. Other benefits, like opening shadows, depend on subject matter.

 

The point to Velvia 100 is to gain the Velvia palette, otherwise why not use Provia? There can't be too much point in choosing to use Velvia 100 and then trying to reduce its characteristics.

[mlfly]

It's a shame you can't do a couple of test rolls before your trip. My first attempts with Velvia 100 were _slightly_ overexposed at 100. 125 is more accurate for my system. To put this into a working perspective, Velvia 50 exposes properly at 40 for me. In your circumstance, I would try 100 asa but bracket another shot at ASA 125.

 

Mike

[lindsay_robb]

Thanks to everyone for all your helpful answers!

 

I think I am going to use ISO 40 and 100 and simply bracket the hell out of anything that I know is fab. And keep extensive notes (or try to - I hate doing them).

 

Technically, if I could find a lab in Manchester that is somewhat accessible and doesn't send 120 away for processing then I could get one test roll in before I left. I've tried this before and all the processors I could find were either inaccessible by bus or sent their 120 to Kodak or someone else.

 

Thanks again!

[david_holland1]

If you're interested in the reason everyone is saying forget the flash, it's that the light from a flash falls off very rapidly as distance from the camera increases. Thus exposure is dependent on distance from the camera. It also depends on film speed and aperture, but not on shutter speed, since the duration of the flash is almost always faster than the shutter. If the subject is exposed correctly (not that easy in the first place if you don't know the film speed or the distance precisely), then anything closer than the subject will be overexposed and anything farther will be underexposed.

 

Something to consider in your project is color temperature. Torchlight will be about as warm as light can get, so you may need to do some color balancing to get your film to look like what you remember.

 

If you do, then the suggestion to go to a print film makes even more sense. Not only are faster films available, but you'll get more exposure lattitude. The half stop differences that show up easily in slide film are a lot more difficult to detect at the film speeds you're using. If you don't have time to test exposure, print film will be a lot safer.

 

The other thing to consider is that it sounds like you're heading into a very high contrast situation. If you don't want bright spots in a dark sea, you might think about how to decrease contrast.

 

The way that works the best, if your torcholders light up early, is to shoot while there is still ambient light and use a slight bluish filter and a little underexposure to make it look like night. From now on when you go to the movies and see a night scene, look for that technique and you'll see pretty often. Otherwise, it takes a lot of strategically placed lights to deal with the fall-off problem.

 

And by the way, another thing to consider is that a 80mm lens for medium format may have the coverage of a 50mm on a 35, but it is still an 80mm as far as hand holding shutter speeds and depth of field are concerned. As you know the only way to get more shutter speed and more depth of field is higher film speed. When I hand hold my 645, I shoot 400 film even in daylight, and if I were you I'd shoot 800 print film and push it a stop.

[mskovacs]

Lindsay you don't have to use auto bracketing. Can you not set the aperture to any inbetween value that suits you on this camera? Anyhow, 1/3 & 1/2, not any real difference under most shooting conditions.

 

Forget about getting the hang of centre-weighted metering for the test. Pick a subject that is of neutral tone across the entire image frame. (a brick wall on an overcast day, green grass on an overcast day etc) Set to a middle aperture (use a tripod), meter at the shutter speed indicated and bracket around it by changing the aperture.

 

A hand held incident meter is a handy thing to have. It won't help you for the night festival but in many cases its much easier then metering with the camera.

[cheec]

Lindsay,

 

I have a Pentax 645 and found that the results are best for

1)velvia @ ISO 32

2)velvia 100F @ ISO 64

 

Chee