patricks Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Pwerful photos, Brian. I visited a very similar event on Park Avenue (!) in New York a couple of years ago. It is extremely intense to hear the chanting and the loud thump of hundreds of bare chested men hitting their torso at the same time, it felt almost surreal. I wish I had a camera at that time. Extremist views and etno-centricity in any religion/culture/country is dangerous. Nuff said on that topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bds1 Posted November 18, 2003 Author Share Posted November 18, 2003 Patrick Magnum photographer Abbas did some shots of that, they are in his book about Islam and no doubt on the magnum site somewhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Smith Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 "Iraqis will not stop fighting until their land is free" Cracking thread. They have had and will have a long fight - first the Turk, then the British, Western-supported kingdom, Baathists, Saddam, now the US and when the US pulls out, themselves and the Kurds (again). I feel sorry for them (and for the Kurds actually). In the end they can only save themselves - if they cock it up it is probably their fault not just because of Imperialists, Muslin extremists, Communists or US power etc. Good luck to them. Just as the Israel-Palestinian issue cannot be solved by outsiders in the end however much they may try. There is nothing wrong with oil - they get paid for it don't they? Why not use the money and rebuild their country? Ah yes that IS the plan. Robin Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric__damn_those_seagulls_1664877331 Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 "There is nothing wrong with oil - they get paid for it don't they?" Robin, I think you've answered your own question by talking about Iraq's history of occupation. America, and the British Empire before it, have cynically manipulated (through puppet regimes or outright occupation) the history of the middle east since oil became an important resource, to ensure they get the benefit of absurdly cheap and abundant oil i.e. daylight robbery. No matter how many died or were tortured by client regimes such as the Shah, Saddam (yes, Rummy�s old best friend) or the Saudi Royals, the US is happy as long as it gets very cheap oil. What oil revenues do actually go into these countries are gobbled up by the corrupt elites that the US/UK placed there and continues to support. �Why not use the money and rebuild their country?� Because the US government is using the money to rebuild it�s country! (the US economy is on the verge of a massive economic slump). Where do you think the money from all this reconstruction work is going to? Straight into US corporate coffers! It�s like shooting a man dead and then sending the bill for the bullet to his grieving relatives. Who do you think is going to win all the new oil contracts and pay the rightful owners of the oil paltry percentages? I�ll give you 3 guesses! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric__damn_those_seagulls_1664877331 Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Both Harvey and Moiz have valid points here. Moiz is justifiably upset at being labelled a "loony" but to be fair to Harvey, people must not be afraid to talk out and criticise the pernicious effects of religions zealotry. For example, this ceremony is taken to very extreme (bloody) levels in Iran and used to intimidate people and reinforce the brutal dictatorship of the Iranian government. Harvey does not seem to be coming from a racist point of view, rather he criticises all extremes in religion. I think this is more of a misunderstanding than anything else. If you are a keen follower of history, Harvey you must realise that while religion is generally a socially reactionary force and used by governments for their own ends it is not the root cause of wars and violence (that would be simple economics). God, this thread is too addictive�mix a never-ending doctoral dissertation, a broadband connection and too much time in front of a PC and you�re hooked! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moiz Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Actually ive been called far worse than loony. And sometimes they have been right. :) I have emailed Harvey about the matter and hopefully it is now closed. Now you guys can go back to talking economics and US-bashing. :) Moiz PS. Eric, loved watching you play for Utd....and when is your next movie out, its been a long time since "Elizabeth". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric__damn_those_seagulls_1664877331 Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Alas, my footballing days are behind me. I'll be raising my collar once again for my new film, however. I'll be playing myself in "Freedom Fries? Non!". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshroot Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 <i>"etc. instead of engaging them and acknowledging that there are responsible, thinking people on the other side of the aisle."</i> <P> Frank, the only problem with this statement is that is applies just as well to people on the "right" side of the aisle. <P> I realized at one point that I don't hate Christians, or republicans, or hippies, Muslims, or environmentalists, or Jews, or anyone of any color. I just hate <b>idiots</b>. <P> Well, idiots and politicians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icuneko Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 I thought this is a photography forum--not a soapbox to express one's political/economic/religious views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olivier_reichenbach Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 « I'm quite curious, Olivier, which bit of this rule are you having trouble understanding: "Please be respectful and supportive of one another. Personal attacks and flame wars will subject threads to editing or deletion." » Harvey, to make your first comment about the «loonies» and this one in a matter of hours in the same thread is an exercise in hypocrisy. So, according to you, being respectful and supportive only applies to members of the forum? But, if a member of the forum happens to be a member of the Shi'ite community who celebrates Ashura, he does not deserve to be treated respectfully and supportively? I see... But don't worry, I have no trouble understanding the rule you quote. I even extend it to the whole of humanity, contrary to you. But, when I read a comment like your first one (and all subsequent ones) which transgress all rules of decency and human respect, then, yes, I will transgress the forum's rules. Seeing that you quote this forum rule, you must know and understand the importance of the written word. I didn't start the flame war. You did. BTW, I do not consider it an insult to be called a leftist, a left-winger or anything left, but an honor. And, Frank, the name is OLIVIER, not Oliver. It's French, you see? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h._p. Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Olivier, do me a favour and grow up. If it's taken you all this time to work out that I'm a bigotted, racist, intolerant hypocrite then you really should apply for that remedial reading course... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Smith Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Eric It is fascinating to learn there are still Marxists around and that everything still is thought to come down to economics, imperialist oppression, the class war etc. etc. I have not heard all this guff for quite some time. Rob Appleby is of the same opinion and oh the fun we have had rehashing all this stuff (see earlier threads if they are still there). I am afraid I am a cynic and believe that there really are bad people out there that sometimes need to be stepped on or everyone suffers and that not all evil stems from being oppressed or due to imperialist misdeeds in the dim and distant past. Some people are just monsters. I place Saddam in that category (and plenty of others) so I am glad he is gone although I wish he was dead too, but we live in hope. I am also for a "forward" US foreign policy in Congo, Liberia, N. Korea and so on, but we all know the voters will not accept this. For this the US is accused of being hypocritical - yes it is, but then so are you to demand regime change in those other countries and yet not support it on an odious regime like Saddam's. Robin Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric__damn_those_seagulls_1664877331 Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Very insightful, Robin. I was reading your latest post and trying to locate one single fact in your commentary but alas, nothing. I suppose to you and Frank it probably does appear that I am a "know-everything doctorial student" seeing as I employ the magical and mysterious method of �evidence�. As far as you being a �cynic� I think you must have mixed up that word with the adjective �gullible�. It really seems you�ve taken hook, line and sinker the US and UK governments� absurd falsifications. All I can do, I guess, is point out the fact that you are in an internationally derided and despised minority of supporters of American government criminality and genocide. p.s. I suggest you talk to Rummy and Bush senior about their long-term loving relationship with the evil monster Saddam. What does that make them, eh? Remember Rummy shaking hands and laughing with Saddam on tape a few weeks after the horrific crimes of Halabja (and then selling him more chemical weapons)� there I go again: those pesky facts, always getting in the way. Annoying isn�t it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry_rory Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Be very careful with what you say to Eric Cantona. This is how he used to deal with those he considered racists..... http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/january/27/newsid_2506000/2506237.stm Of course I am not convinced that our "Eric" is THAT Eric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric__damn_those_seagulls_1664877331 Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 What a cheek, Trevor. C'est moi! Will the seagulls never stop following the trawler... will I never have peace? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry_rory Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Seagulls only follow a trawler if they smell something fishy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry_rory Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Any Manxman could tell you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric__damn_those_seagulls_1664877331 Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 I haven't "trolled" anyone. My user name is clearly understood by all the UK users on this thread and I have already made reference to it above. You're have exposed your blinkered ignorance and insularity very well on your own. Ta, ta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olivier_reichenbach Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 This whole thread is proving my point. How a seemingly detached and casual comment on other cultures can initiate anger and resentment between people who might otherwise live in harmony and understanding. And this why, Harvey, real grown-ups don't insult others so light-heartedly and irresponsibly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nesrani Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 "It is fascinating to learn there are still Marxists around and that everything still is thought to come down to economics, imperialist oppression, the class war etc. etc. I have not heard all this guff for quite some time. Rob Appleby is of the same opinion..." I'm not a Marxist, Robin, - I don't think I'm an 'ist at all - but I do believe that economic (as well as religious/ideological) interests are behind the attack on Iraq, yes. And I also believe that the demonisation of Islam serves economic/imperialist interests by minimising aspirations (nascent nationalisms, among others) which we take for granted as being the right of any national community in our own countries. Afganistan is a prime example of that, as is the current situation in Iraq itself. And Palestine, of course, is the longest running version of that particular distortion. However, it is futile going over this stuff on these boards because no-one ever actually reads what anyone else says. I think if I ever have the chance to do so, I would like to do a documentary on how the attack on Afghanistan served to divert and crush local nationalisms in Pakistan, Afghanistan and the other 'stans in the interests of US hegemony in the region - leaving behind a far worse situation than it found. That would be an interesting story. Well, one can dream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nesrani Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 BTW - re the Halabja gassing, so often cited as proof of Saddam Hussein's inhumanity, the following may be of interest: http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0301-06.htm As far as I understand it, no-one really knows who gassed the town, although forensic evidence points more strongly at Iran than Iraq. I'd be interested to know more about it if anyone has any relevant links or information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nesrani Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 Frank Petronio re Eric Cantona: "Your views are so extremely opposite mine that I can hardly believe you're serious." Unfortunately it's all too easy to believe that you are serious, Frank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric__damn_those_seagulls_1664877331 Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 Interesting Xinbad, but there is very little evidence to suggest that Saddam didn't carry out the Halabja attack. With or without Halabja, Saddam was (and is) an inhuman psychotic, as most CIA puppies are, such as the Taliban, Osama Bin Laden (yes, him too), the Shah, Suharto,Pinochet etc, etc (not enough space on a unix server for the full list). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h._p. Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 "this why, Harvey, real grown-ups don't insult others so light-heartedly and irresponsibly" Political correctness is the enemy of true understanding, Olivier; there will be a lot less friction in the world when people like you remove the steel rod that's been inserted in your rectum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nesrani Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 Of course, Eric, I agree about Saddam Hussein's nastiness. You're on form Harvey - I bet you're a big fan of King Lear's side-kick, the Duke of Kent (was it? - can't remember). English plain-speaking is just a mask for rudeness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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