catch22

[phil r calgary ab canada]

hi all

 

thought of a dilema when i posted a response to an earlier question,

but here's a catch 22

it seems to me... that when becoming serious, you need quality

models to pose for you to convince models who will pay you for your

time and talent

 

only that requires a quality portfolio to prove -- to both potential

clients and less picky models that you'd hope would do TFP sessions -

- that you can shoot high quality stuff, any advice there?

 

how do you get a quality portfolio without being able to convince

that you can shoot quality

 

as a side question, how does the fact that i've shot regularly for

my college newspaper for the last year and a half qualify me, a

photography position where i have a editor who has high standards

for quality

 

i hope this hasn't been debated forever in earlier discussions, i'm

just wondering for a fresh opinion or three

[pdumais]

Do you need a full portfolio for TFP ? I wouldn't think so. You don't have to have the ultimate portfolio all at once, you build it as you go, and as you improve. If you don't have any friends handy, you can always try a self-portrait first.

 

I don't understand your side question. Shooting for the college paper adds a line to your résumé. Presumably some of your work there may land in your portfolio if it is interesting enough. What else are you expecting?

[christopher_bibbs]

In my limited experience, getting someone to do TFP is pretty easy. Do you really need a perfect model if you have a great idea? Doubtful. Are people easily swayed by the phrase, "you have a really great look." Yeah. Most people are flattered if you approach them correctly.

[jkantor]

The short answer is money. If you have an extra $20K, hire Giselle Bundchen and her favorite makeup artist, stylist, and hairstylist for a few hours, an experienced assistant, and rent a studio. You'll get great shots.

 

The realistic answer is you do what you can with what you've got. With off-the-street models you'll need to find that one good angle that you can shoot them from to give you one more decent shot for your portfolio.

 

And you are never going to make much money from being hired by models unless you open a studio and do volume headshots and portfolio work.

[steve_levine]

Anyone can be a good photographic model!It is the skill of the shooter that makes the difference between good & great images.

[jay_de_fehr]

Phil, while I've never deluded myself into believing I could make money in photography, I can relate to not having work to show prospective models. I, like you, assumed that this would be a major obstacle in attracting models. I was wrong. It seems that once word gets out that there's a guy with a camera looking for models, you end up turning more models away than you can shoot. For me, the important thing is to choose your models critically, for a quality that you recognize and want to communicate in your portfolio. If you choose your models on the basis of their willingnes to cooperate, your portfolio will lack the cohesive narrative that describes your vision. If you're successful in this endeavour, you can abandon your selectivity in favor of paying customers. Good luck.

[james_oneill]

1. Whoever wants the pictures pays Time for prints only works (a) both parties want the pictures and (b) You have lots of time (to make prints) and little money. I figured out that TFP is actually 10 hours of my time for each hour of the models time. I have little enough time to devote to my interests so I'd rather pay...<p>

 

2. Good and experienced models generally don't want to do TFP. They have enough pictures. They may want to shoot something specic which they don't have and may trade pictures you want for pictures they want. But why would they do that with someone who is an unknown quantity ? Which leads to ...<p>

 

3.It <i> requires a quality portfolio to prove -- -- that you can shoot high quality stuff,</i> Your're spot on there. Without a quality portfolio you're not a photographer, just a bloke with a camera. And <i>"you need quality models to pose for you"</i> to get such a portfolio. Yes. Absolutely right. <p>

 

4. The corrolory of 3. Your portfolio is an ASSET and one you should INVEST in. (Just as you would expect a new model to invest in hers by paying you for a shoot). You'd spend time and/or money printing it, you make sure it was well displayed. You'd put time into shooting the pictures for it (and if not working exclusively in digital you'd spend money on film for it) So why on earth would you not pay a really good model ? There are plenty out there and the rates are less than you might think<p>

 

5. Take a look at my portfolio. I spent more on a new camera body than I paid all the models combined. I've only been working with models for 16 months, and I'm now getting to the stage where I think I could get decent results with a novice. I regard paying someone who knows what they doing as money well spent.<p>

[johnmarsden]

Phil

 

You have a great learning opportunity ahead of you.

You will be learning how to make average models look great. You can even shoot the odd (even really odd) 'before' shot and then the 'after' shot of what you The Great Phil can do for a model.

 

Its relatively easy to snap a good model. The key to being a good photographer is knowing how to hide a models 'bad' bits and show only the good.

 

Most of the top models have bits of them they consider ugly. (beats me I can't find them for want of looking) but they believe that. They prefer to work with photographers who they know will respect them and keep them looking gorgeous.

 

Think about it. The problem is not with lack of models, but rather with you idea that you need great models for a great picture.

 

Na! You need a great photographer for a great picture.

 

Have fun and work hard. (They were tips number 2 and 3 by the way!)

[yance_marti]

Phil, photography is sometimes a difficult business. To get in the pro side, it isn't enough that you have experience. You have to be very hardworking and also have a very good vision. Technical expertise has to be proven. Don't just work for the college newspaper, make your own assignments that are beyond what they use. I have worked several years for my college newspaper and the assignments they provide are really not portfolio stuffers. I usually made some self assignments that were never published but gave me a greater range than what I would have had. Use the limited pull of your newspaper position to create some assignments that are on a pro level. Really you have to think on a pro level to be able to do pro work. Once you do that then the subject is secondary to getting good pictures.

[EricM]

There�s some good responses here. I�d like to add that it is okay for you to turn people down as well. Keep your vision, do not yield to it. If you are interested in shooting and obtaining great model shots while seeking volunteers, then be discerning with those that offer. As Jay said, once word is out for awhile, they�ll start asking you. If you plan to start showing your books in the future to the local agents for testing work, then your book must be relative to their clients. Shoot young people with great skin and bodies, this is three quarters of the battle. Start ripping apart fashion mags and gluing them into a blank generic art sketch book. Make notes and draw all over it. Imbed great images into your subconscious. Learn what angles the body must be at the camera, learn what focal lengths you must use if you choose to shoot below the hips. Learn which way the wrists are twisted, the fingers shaped. Like I said, if you want the work from the size 3-4 17 year old model world, then that�s what your volunteers need to be. The male to female ratio has to be 1:5 minimum. Great model photos consist of a million subtleties, right down to the glossy lips. Come here and post for encouragement and improvement. Cheers, and have fun, because it is.

[twmeyer]

I'm serious.. and I haven't really felt the need to hire (in any manner) "quality" models, what ever that means. This is because I'm not <i>that</i> interested in photographing "models". I want to photograph people who are interesting looking... that is, they attempt to externalize their interior condition, and do it well. These people are everywhere, and they actually <i>want</i> to be looked at, and even photographed. But they generally are wary of photographers as a genre, because "Hey, I'm a photographer...and I'd like to photograph you!" is a line that has about as much credibility as "Hey, I'm a great lover... and I'd like to screw you!", probably because they've been used interchangeably for sooo long.<p>The upshot of this is that you need to work on your credibility, and get accustomed to being turned down a lot. Keep asking, pay attention to who says yes and watch their reactions to your opening lines and subsequent explanations. Learn what to say, and what not to say. Don't be Chester the Molester disguised as a photographer. Offer personal references, ask people when you're out with friends, and let them testify as to your authenticity. It works... t<div></div>

[EricM]

nice shot Tom!

[gene_m]

Try onemodelplace.com

They have a whole list of models, from those who have never worked before to professionals with extensive experience. I just found a girl in my area who specifically stated in her profile for new photographers not to be intimidated by her experience, that she'll work with just about anyone who pays. She's just a college student trying to pay her bills.

[phil r calgary ab canada]

Thanks so much for the encouragement!!

i totally will think through the points coming forward, parts that made sense going with an "average" person who dresses up eccentrically with their inner style showing is awesome for a shoot though much more hesitant then "pro" who knows what to expect

 

but pro will make good photog shine, but a good photog needs a lot of mistakes to hide "the bad bits" spare me we're not looking for greek statues, before knowing how to make pro look brilliant, so it seems like i just have to keep getting out there and sticking my neck out to be shut-down or get lucky

 

which by the way being twenty really starts to feel like a pick-up line, hey... i'm a photographer, how you doing?? you wanna do a photo session at my place or yours... arggg

 

sooo wrong, but perception of others, does asking personally have to be only way to find out if they'll say yes or not because i could spend a lot of time doing that, or post an ad up at school and have more willing people to narrow down opposed to seeing someone on the street or cafe (nice shot from above there) and going wow... they'd be great! i guess i'll have try the posting and find out:) after my other projects are done that is

 

thought of doing lots of stuff above and beyond basic shots for articles and making them exciting anyway by being with college newspaper status, but idea-list is mile long after i get my assignments in school and otherwise, but there's the summer off *grins* thanks again for all the suggestions, now for the hard work bit:)

 

gooday

 

phil