It is my vision, ladies and gentleman. Please!

[ellis_jordan]

Christmas around the corner and with it all the joy. Here is a story

which perhaps, some of you will smile at.

 

Why not give some of my recent landscape photographs as Christmas

presents to my friends? While giving away prints, occasionally I

also suggest

that the recipient may buy additional print(s) at a reduced price if

he so likes. (I charge 150$ for a matted 11x14 B&W exhibition prints,

which is much below my standard price).

 

So I first showed my recent creations to a well to-do friend (who in

his own words collects 1000$/month in bank interests alone), and

suggested the above.

 

Well, he refused to purchase any print on the ground that he �did not

have any money�, but would gladly accept two of my 16x20 photographs,

providing that I make some modifications. He wanted the background

mountains as dark as the foreground, since, according to him, the

tonal rendition of the scene was not properly executed.

 

Yesterday, I was showing few prints in a PAPC photographic club here

in NY city(of which I am president), and received additional advise.

One guy did not like the curvature of the valley on the horizon and

wanted darker sky, then proceeded to question the horizontal stretch

and asked me to crop the picture vertically.

 

Still another gentleman, while looking at a different picture,

advised me to crop the sky since it was �uninteresting� for him.

 

My photographs are all 4x5 enlargements processed to highest

standards, entirely by me. They are products of much deliberation,

both before capture, during processing, and afterwards. I do not

scorn advise, and when I need it, I ask for it. However, the final

products are the final products.

 

These critics are at best photographic hobbyists, rather �point-and-

shooters�, who shoot color with plastic cameras and who have never

worked in either color or b&w darkroom themselves.

 

I have been an art collector, and knew many artists personally whose

paintings or drawings I used to purchase. Although I was paying for

the work it never crossed my mind to impose my ideas on them. I was

happy to choose the work which I liked most. On two occasions when my

portrait was about to be made and the artist asked me if I wanted it

in charcoal or color, I chose the pastels. Another time I suggested

that he makes �something familiar� as both of us came from the same

part of the country. That�s how far I would go with imposing my will

on someone else�s creative endeavors.

 

Of course, with a client the story is a different one. I will

except any order, for example to make a photo of a pink poodle,

providing that I deem assignment attractive and will get paid for it.

 

What to do? Simply ignore the nonsense, but wonder if any of you

have had related experiences?<div></div>

[neal_shields]

Try my strategy: make sure that there is so much wrong, that nobody knows where to start criticizing.

 

P.S. you violated the rule of thirds, $30 fine.

[ellis_jordan]

PS.

I posted the above on behalf of Mr. WAZ.

[martin_pistor]

Hi Ellis,

strictly seperate the following subjects:

 

-people you ask for criticism.

 

-people you want to sell artwork of yours to.

 

-people you're giving (i.e. artwork of yours) presents to.

 

-people you're doing jobs for (i.e. prints like they want it).

 

Mixing those up complicates life.

 

Martin

[prip]

Q. What to do? A. Get more gracious friends.

[bob fowler]

Martin hit the nail on the head in far less words than I would have used.<p>

Having said that... Gallery owners who sell a LOT of work that is in line with your liking would be the ones to listen to, not P&S snap-shooters (though art CAN be created with a P&S).

[bruce watson]

I feel your pain.

 

As a collector, I feel like part of what I'm buying is the artist's vision. If I don't like it or agree with it, I move on to the next print. I've never asked an artist to change his/her vision for me. An absurd thought, that.

 

As a photographic artist, my favorite expletive from a "critic" is the "I could have taken that" remark. Yet, when I ask to see an example, no one ever brings me a print to compare.

 

The only thing to do is to stay true to your vision. Not everyone will understand or appreciate what you are trying to do. What's that old saying? Something like, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink???

[robert_lawrence]

Hmmmmm. There is one thing worse than this, giving away one of your masterpieces to be greeted with 'That's brilliant.... you must have a really good camera'!!

[timothy_hettinger]

I agree about the seperation of critics and would also add-

 

If I understand it right, he won't accept the FREE ones without modification? that's easy- don't give him one! If he wants to purchase, you MIGHT have a dilemma.

I take all criticism with a grain of salt. Sometimes people are right and the untrained eye can be fresher than those bogged down with too much knowledge. If you made the choices deliberately and think they are effective, you should stand by them. Some of the greatest work out there was criticized at first and later hailed as brilliant. I figure that if they want something different, they can shoot and print themselves.

For commercial work, you have to find a happy medium. The client usually wants something specific and they are coming to a pro for the expertise.

[eric rose]

Tell them to f&%k themselves, but of course in a Xmas friendly way. I mean it is the season to be jolly, right? I print the image the way it should be printed. Period. If you don't like it, then don't buy it. Barnbaum has lost sales because a client wanted it a different size than what he deemed the print should be. He just would not budge. Artist integrity is everything, at least for "art". If it's a commercial job, well then do what they are paying you to do.

 

Personally I do not give away any of my fine-art. For holiday images I will do something in keeping with the spirit and give those away. They are obviously meant as a large version of a Xmas card or the such and will not be confused with my main business focus. Whenever you give away some of your "fine-art" it reduced -your- value.

 

In my years of doing business I have always found that the ones who brag about how much they make etc. have the least disposable income. This is due to the fact they are maxed out on credit to keep up the appearances of a lavish lifestyle.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

Eric

[john_kasaian1]

Six words: "It's supposed to be that way." Works every time.

[davidv1]

I'd say you've just shortened your Christmas list. "Please reprint that 16x20 so I'll find it acceptable as a gift"? I hope he wasn't a very close friend.

 

If a client wants a change, and wants to leave a deposit, it's up to you whether or not you want to print it his way. It's his money, and his taste. You don't have to sign it. Being a critic is easy - just find something to complain about in everything you see.

 

I like the sample you've shown, and don't think it needs any 'improvements'. I'd happily accept a free print. Not everyone is so generous with their work.

[jay_de_fehr]

This year more than any previous, I was inundated by requests from family and friends for photos as gifts. One of my sisters in law chose several from my proof books that she liked, and left which one I wanted to give her up to me, but none of the rest made any specific requests at all. Bear in mind that my photos are portraits of my family and friends, as that probably has a lot to do with their reception, but I've never given a print as a gift that wasn't subsequently matted, framed and hung in the home of the recipient. I am flattered and honored to see my work in the homes of my family and friends, and among their most prized possessions. I can't even imagine how I would react to the reception of Ellis' gifts to his friends, but then again, I've never offered to sell my friends additional prints either.

[dan_fromm1]

Ellis, the example you posted is, to my taste, too symmetrical for words. Not what I would have done in that setting. Not at all.

 

On the other hand, there's an awful lot of room for disagreement about what works and doesn't, and its good to see photos that I wouldn't have taken myself. Sometimes when that happens I change my mind about what works. I mean, I have a long and glorious history of, um, error. Often in doubt, usually wrong, that's me. Clearly don't know everything yet.

 

Give the non-paying critics a polite hearing, roll their suggestions over in your mind because they might have some worth, and go on doing what you think best. As you said, its your vision. As you didn't say, its your time and other resources too. If its a question of work for hire, you can always offer to shoot and print to order, cash in advance, no refunds.

 

I've never had quite the experiences you did, but then I don't show my work much or often. I onced visit a stock agency specializing in wildlife photography with a portfolio of fish pictures shot in setups that looked much like the places the fishes had come from. Rocks, leaf litter, mud, no plants visible. Very true to nature as I've been in it in the field. The folks in the agency politely explained that their market's definition of natural involved lush vegetation and that their clients wouldn't buy my stuff as it was. I took the news as an introduction to reality and marching orders.

 

Your critics were tire-kickers giving you a hard time with no prospect of sales. The folks at the agency were trying to get me to produce what they could place. There's another of the differences between amateurs and pros.

 

Thanks for raising the question and showing your example.

 

Cheers, and season's greetings too,

 

Dan

[jorge_gasteazoro4]

I think you are being a little over sensitive. You should take the comments from whom they come from. If John Sexton had told you this, would you be upset? I bet not, remember many people in the photo clubs are generous with their opinion not because they have interest in what you have done, but to show how much they know about photography.

 

In the case of the friend, if this is a good friend who does care about your art, then perhaps listening to his opinion might be worth while. Perhaps the friend does not know about photography, but he detected something not "right" with the pic. I looked at the pic and I think he does have a point with the sky, not because it is too light but the clouds in the upper part of the frame are too gray and take away from the luminosity which the picture seems to have. I like the curve, it seems to cradle the trees, I like the far mountains, they are bright and a nice counterpoint to the foreground, but the upper clouds seem to take away the luminosity of the print overall, IMO.

 

Sorry for the little critique but sometimes it pays to listen, I have a friend who does not know a thing about photography, but is a water color painter and has a wonderful sense of composition, many a times she has told me "why dont you...?" and darn it if she is not right!

 

As to your last question, yes I have been in similar situations where an "opinion" is given unsolicited, if it is a person of whom I respect his/her opinion I listen, if not I say thank you, please show me your prints so I can better understand what you mean...usually shuts them up..:-)

[._._z]

<i> What to do? Simply ignore the nonsense </i><p>

 

Of course, if you think it's nonsense, or if you don't accept or respect the criticism of

others, just ignore it. Then again, perhaps some are trenchant observations that you

don't want to hear. When you're ready to accept whatever value you can from

criticism, you will. In the mean time, don't sweat it. <p>

 

By the way, what does PAPC stand for?

[skygzr]

Ah, yes, the unsolicited suggestion from a dubious source. Sometimes it�s actually helpful, and sometimes�.

 

I remember reading an essay by Arthur C. Clarke. He was writing about all the, uh, interesting correspondence he received (this was back in the sixties, when you actually had to send a letter). He would get these rants from people who were just positive that modern science was all wrong and could PROVE it, by golly. The proof (if there was one) was usually ten or so pages of smeary symbols in a previously unknown language. He had a standard answer for all such correspondence�.�Dear X, You may be right. Sincerely, AC Clarke�.

[tim_curry]

Free advice is worth what it costs. Merry Christmas!

[william_whitaker1]

<I>If you always try to live up to the expectations of others, you'll never fulfill your own.</I><P>

Merry Christmas,<BR>

Will

[Sandeha Lynch]

There are times when you have to say, "You know, that's a really interesting idea," (and sit and listen) and times when you say, "You know, that's a <i><b>REALLY</b></i> interesting idea," (and walk away) ... ... depending on who you're speaking to.

[oskar_ojala]

Martin summed it up pretty nicely. In my country, we have a saying that goes "don't look a gift horse in the mouth", meaning that your "friend" suggesting "improvements" to work which he would accept free of charge is extremely rude. Naturally, you don't live in this country, but a lot of people in the US have some distant roots here, so maybe there's a bit of that saying left...(?)

 

Anyway, I don't think it's possible to quality work by having finished one's vision and then starting to make modifications that others suggest. You should be humble to criticism, but that doesn't mean you should do the changes a critic suggest. Separating the useful critique from the useless is good for learning :)

[david_nevin1]

Ellis,

 

Take a look at the motivation for giving away prints. If you were giving away prints as Xmas presents to friends, then why approach them trying to sell the duplicates. If someone--especially a friend--approached you the same way, how would you feel?

 

Their critical responses might simply be a defensive one--find fault so they aren't expected to buy your prints. Especially from your friend with money, who is used to people trying to get it away from him.

 

I think the moral of your story is if you're going to give a gift, give a gift. If you're going to try to sell something, start clean by being up front about it and not trying to give away a gift.

 

The beautiful thing about photo.net is that you're able to get reviews/critiques of your work by people who, typically, don't have a bias for/against you. It is difficult to be an artist in your own town where everyone knows you.

 

A good story--thanks for sharing it,

 

Dave

[wieslaw1]

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OK - I am the author of this theme and asked Ellis (who is my assistant) to post it on my behalf because I was not able to log in myself.

<BR><BR>

Yes, Martin is perfectly right to adhere to the 4 rules expressed. It was my fault to offer a photograph to somebody who, irrespectively of his wealth, lacks visual orientation. On several occasions I heard my friend saying that he does not like museums, and indeed, when I took him to MOMA, he was bored.

<BR><BR>

Dan - I agree. Symmetry in composition is usually very formal and boring. Suitable for presenting church interiors. I do not recall many symmetrical photographs in my portfolio, the one above is unique. Here, is another version, a second choice, which I had contemplated before printing the panorama. Take it or leave it.

 

<I>Yavorova Valley in the Tatras. Oct.03. Linhof Techn. 4x5, Super angulon 65mm.</I>

<BR><BR>

Jorge - this is exactly my point - need to distinguish between a constructive and useless advice. Your painter friend has been visually trained and has the same qualifications as a photographer. We just discussed this problem (critique and the way people comprehend a "good" or "bad" photograph) with few proffs of our club. We have to take an action and provide some education to our nonprofessional members, who otherwise will never grow. The democratic principles we adhere to allow any of our members to exhibit his/her work along that of Eva Rubinstein and Ryszard Horowitz, who are also club members. That boosts the ego of the individuals, but disparity of the photographic quality is large as there is no selection regarding the merits of the art presented.

<BR><BR>

Your advice regarding the sky is well taken, but you have not seen the print. I showed scanned negative here, cropped, but without final dodging & printing. Similar but not identical. As to hypothetical criticism by J.S I know what I would tell him. That his " Places of Power" are lacking scale and that he should include a human figure now and then. The same applies to my mountain photography and it is unfortunate that I was unable to have a proper companion (i.e. someone who would go on 10 hours trekking without interfering with my photography) to provide scale. I attempted to do it myself with a self-timer, but so far not successfully. Having said that, above all I would prefer a nude model, to continue a project started some time ago.

See <BR>

<A href="http://www.photo.net/photo/1469656"> Nude Symphony</A>

<BR><BR>

This would be an interplay of pure forms, far more interesting than ordinary landscape photography. Unfortunately, the logistics did not permit engaging a model at that time. Perhaps next Summer.

 

<BR><BR>

PAPC = Polish American Photographic Club

<BR><BR>

Oskar - I had no idea that the saying you are quoting is popular in Finland. The exact one is common in Poland.

<BR><BR>

I think we had an interesting discussion, more engaging than usual " How sharp is the lens" ,or " Am I crazy..." .

<BR><BR>

I also note that there are a number of participants in this thread who live in NY or NJ. I will try to contact you to arrange a meeting/presentation in our club in Manhattan.<BR>

So thanks everybody for your input. It will be in order to summarize with an anecdote:

<BR><BR>

Famous French painter Camile Corot used to study and paint nature, often at the Seine river banks where he became a familiar figure among the passersby. Some of the onlookers, attracted by his canvas, would come up with a friendly advise, telling him what or how he should paint. Alas, Corot was not very intelligent.

<BR><BR>

" I do not understand" - he would reply handing over the brushes - " why don"t you paint it yourself" .

<BR><BR>

Happy Holiday!!!<BR>

waz

 

 

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[User_503771]

Boy, what a situation!

 

I guess I've been luckier than you, in that I haven't had as much criticism. But is it also lucky for me that I haven't shown my work to nearly as many people as you have?

 

Interesting times we live in too. So many photographers working, making such phenomenal work -- seems to me it's more than ever before. This is good! And more of it is seen, because of improved communications (Internet, etc.) -- also good! But now everybody's an expert, even more than before. This is -- guess!

 

Regarding the composition: I don't usually like placement of a major composition element in the middle of a picture. But I like this photo a lot. As I gaze, I notice that it's not entirely symmetrical, which adds a little tension. (The mountains to either side don't match. How did that happen?)

 

I also tried to figure out how it could possibly have been improved, and came up blank. Move either way and the lower tree trunks would have been lost in the background, not to mention changing all other relationships, angles, etc. Additionally, who knows from looking at the print: If you'd moved to the right, would you perhaps have gone over a cliff? To the left, perhaps you would have fallen up a cliff? Or walked into the middle of a road at rush hour? Who knows?

 

Ansel Adams always stressed that composition is up to the individual, and quoted Edward Weston as having said that it's the "strongest way of seeing" a subject.

 

I think you caught your subject at a most fortuitous moment -- time of day, placement of clouds. Wow!

 

At various times of my life I've been a painter, then a musician, and now -- for quite a while -- a photographer. I've made my living for nearly 25 years close to or in the graphic arts (typography, proofreading, graphics camera work, desktop publishing, etc.). Looking back, perhaps one reason I've rarely felt I was being overly criticized is because I've been blessed with "selective hearing" or "partial deafness"(?). Or perhaps because people have perceived in advance that I don't tolerate much bulls**t.

 

As I write, I recall times that well-meaning people have offered me advice, and I've been touched by their concern, even if the advice was on occasion particularly bad. I just thank them for their ideas. This sort of thing makes me happy -- somebody cares! And the ones who are malicious about it, just consider the source and move on politely, or not so politely, as the situation warrants.

 

But as one of the above posts indicated, your personal integrity is the most important thing. In everything I've done -- and will do -- I just figure that I'm a craftsman working towards higher ground in my work, and I feel fortunate and grateful when I achieve something I consider to have attained that higher ground (called "art"). Then I find sometimes that pieces I had considered to be only decent craft hit others as art, and vice-versa. Life consists of a parade of unique individuals and viewpoints across one's path, plenty of them gratefully received, many others taken with the proverbial "grain of salt!"

 

Anyway, before I *really* get started rambling, all I can really say to sum up is: Keep up the great work! If I had dough right now, I'd probably buy that print right now. And, of course, no matter what you have to put with up by way of criticism, in the end, always keep your own counsel! And then, of course, keep up the great work! And, ....

 

Merry Christmas! Happy New Year!

 

'Bye for now......

[michael_j._kravit1]

Comment:

Camera clubs are full of the "rule police".

 

I have some rules of my own......

 

Rule No.1

Never join a camera club.

 

Rule No. 2

When in doubt refer back to rule No. 1