Revised Forum Guidelines - Please Read

[www.antiquecameras.net]

Give Josh a break, he is just a kid on a power trip...All Hail Josh, King of Leica-dom

[james_.1]

Perhaps a Leica Forum subsection for photos could be had? That way the dichotomy of gear talk and photos could have their own homes. But, I for one don't know why anyone would be averse to Leica photography work.

[james_.1]

Uh-oh Dcolluci...watch your post get deleted as the 1st example tee hee. This forum is about to be lobotomized. :P

[joshroot]

Ah Mr Colucci,

 

So glad you didn't miss an opportunity to show your maturity. Still holding a grudge I see? Well good luck with that.

[www.antiquecameras.net]

oops...is Josh-ing not allowed ?

[joshroot]

Let me see if I can explain my thoughts in a way that makes sense to someone who doesn't live in my head......

<P>

<b>The following is just my personal opinion. I am NOT speaking for Tony or anyone else here at photo.net</b>

<P>

I would guess that the reason most of us want to post things here, on the Leica forum, instead of on the "general photography" forum or the "photo crit" forum, is that we feel like we get smarter, better, funnier, etc replies from the people here.

<P>

But most of the reason that posts here get those better replies, is that the Leica forum attracted a high percentage of a particular type of photographer. Most of the reason was because Tony made the forum with guidelines that specified what the forum was about, and what it was about (Leica photography) drew us all in. Without Tony's original guidelines the forum would just have turned into any one of a million other forums on the internet. Specifically, I think it would have become as useless and watered down as the "general photography" forum is today.

<P>

And without some continued attention to the guidelines, the forum can easily still go down that same path.

<P>

The reason the Leica forum is different from the "general photography" forum is that we set guidelines that MAKE our forum different. Better or worse? Well that's a personal opinion. Many people thing Leica users are a bunch of know-nothings with more money than sense. But I do like our forum better.

<P>

My point is, if we want to continue to enjoy the aspects of the Leica forum that made us hang out here in the first place, we have to continue to have guidelines that reflect those aspects. Of course they will change over time (i.e. the inclusion of non-leica photos etc.), but there is an underlying theme that we'll need to stick to.

<P><br>

 

 

P.S. And for what it's worth. Yes, I sold my last M mount camera when I sold my CL a year ago. Although I shoot digitally for many many things, primarily my "work" photography. I still use my Leica IIIf (and my gold russian Leica II copy) for personal enjoyment.

[charles barcellona www.bl]

1.No "Film v. Digital" threads allowed, unless the discussion is about a very specific application. Forum moderators pay particular attention to these types of dicussions.

 

*** My personal opinion on this is to limit specific application to Leica related and only by way of comparison to other digital or film products.

 

2.Questions about non-Leica brands are generally not allowed. For other camera brands, please look to other forums on Photo.net that are more appropriate.

 

*** As in #1 above, I believe we ought to accept comparison questions on Leica vs (anything else).

 

3.As other companys....

 

Fine as is.

 

4.All decisions by forum moderators are final. If you wish to register a complaint, write to a moderator directly through email. All complaints about forum moderation are subject to deletion without notice.

 

*** Anti-sedition at its best. Too bad you can't mark headers (deleted) and freeze em for a week or so. At least we'd know what's going on.

 

5.No profanity allowed. Posts that contain profanity are subject to deletion.

 

*** I could be an instigator with response here... nah...!

 

6.Please be respectful

 

*** Fine as is.

 

7.Please use the search function...

 

*** So true.

 

8.Please categorize

 

*** Fine as is.

 

9.Please formulate good subject titles...

 

*** Fine as is.

 

10.Questions about digital cameras (other than those made by Leica) should be posted in the Digital Camera Forum.

 

*** Wait a dadburn (no profanity) moment. Are you saying that questions regarding brand C or N made in comparison to Leica film products are verboten? Or are they allowed?

 

11.Photographs posted for critique or display are allowed provided that they can be classified as fitting within the "rangefinder" style. It is preferable that posted photography be made with a Leica, but this is not a hard rule.

 

*** Define "rangefinder" style, if you please

 

12.For Sale....No such posts are allowed from retail sales outlets of any kind.

 

*** Fine as is

 

13.All FS/WTB/WTT posts must be appropriately titled

 

*** Fine as is

 

14.All FS/WTB/WTT posts MUST be categorized

 

*** Thats redundant to #8 above....oops, no criticizing any more...

 

15.Off-topic threads of a humorous or of temporary common interest will likely be allowed. Please use "OT: " as the title of your post. Off topics posts are subject to expiration depending on their long-term informational value.

 

*** With the moderators being the sole determining body as to what is informational. Too bad there isn't someplace you can move "To be expired" stuff for a week or so, to let people gripe about it... I mean to offer serious commentary while not being seditious toward the moderators.

 

I hasten to add two additional comments:

 

A. The nature of this formum community is such that posts regarding items considered a "Bozo-No-No" (as per above) are taken to the community many times because of the trust in relationships members have with individuals and as a whole community. For instance, somebody might ask about a scanner here - which is against the rules - exactly because he knows that the forum community can offer the perspective he needs/wants as a Leica user scanning images made with his Leica. Maybe there needs to be some easing of that ruling, or at least some revision of it.

 

B. The open nature of this community is one of its greatest strengths. We have gripes and complaints. To those I say "hooey". If you dont like the post/thread/image, read no more, and go on to another. Get a grip.

 

Thats all for now. Good day <smiles>

[jack_lo_..._t_o]

I think it's clear to all that this forum has a very distinct identity as a community-I consider myself incredibly lucky to have found it-and the true test of the rules laid down by Tony will be if that identity remains. Without picture posts and the occasional OT flame-war, the Leica Forum loses it. Tony, in both his active modes and his let'em play modes has been marvelous. I'm hoping Josh will stay with the program, and be able to control his druthers as expressed above. [NP] Hey Jeff: what were those "seven words" you mentioned(:~>)?

[Spearhead]

<i>Hey Jeff: what were those "seven words" you mentioned</i><p>

 

The "Seven Dirty Words" routine was done by George Carlin a long time ago and originated from some broadcast guidelines. Anyone that wants to read a transcript of Carlin's comedy routine (which was very serious, despite being funny) can do so <a href="http://www.erenkrantz.com/Humor/SevenDirtyWords.shtml">here.</a> Warning - there are at least seven dirty words on that page.

[joshroot]

Peter,

 

I agree with you on all points. The rating system is a joke, the crit forum gives nothing useful, there are great photographers here, and the Leica forum is absolutely something special. If I didn't think so. I wouldn't bother to spend my free time as a volunteer. So I'm not sure what I've said that you feel is attacking any of those things.

 

When I said "if it were up to me...." about the posting of photos, I meant just that. But it's not up to me. Many MANY people here like the photos (and I'll admit that I do too sometimes). And specifically, Tony liked the idea of photos in the forum. So my personal opinions had no weight in that matter. And other than mentioning the past discussions (which were both over a year ago) as an example, I don't bring it up. Photos are allowed here, and because of that, I myself have been known to post a photo from time to time.

[iván]

After a long time without posting anything but not always away from the Forum I found these new rules and couldn't help but agree with Lutz's opinion: promoting (longer life time allowed, perhaps) more intellectually or graphically interesting postings could well be more productive than prohibiting more and more contributions (most possible exception: film vs. digital, of course). In particular, I'd like to highlight Lutz's proposed objective: to obtain as many threads and postings worth to be permanently kept as possible, i.e to stick to the same criterium we use when making photographs. A grading system would certainly point in that direction but will surely invite countless opinions on the unfairness of the grading system itself. If it is true that most of us must be careful about the usage of our limited free time and too many postings are of no help regarding this goal it is also true that we will always be free to read only what we want and skip the non interesting contributions, each of us at our own will. And I feel sad to say that IMHO the average interest of our contributions has noticeably decreased from the Greenspun times.

 

I'm presently trying to make arrangemets here to go back into activity in the Forum but in the mean time I'd like to thank for this opportunity with or without the rules.

 

Best regards friends !

 

-Iván

[asher]

Hey Peter- careful about "complaining" about the ratings/critique. Don't you know? It's all been said before, should never ever be discussed again, doesn't belong here, and has nothing whatsoever to do with Leica photographers shooting differently from everyone else...<P>

For the record, that's sarcasm.

[henricus]

Reasonable rules for reasonable folks. Thanks for the work you guys do to keep it tiddy.

[crackers_.]

Ratings - is what Brian was explaining, ad nauseum, in 'Feedback' around 6pm when someone here was looking for his sponsorship that set sail two months ago. If there is only one paid responsible figure available, he should be the punching bag out front and it shouldn't be left to a moderator to have to excuse mismanagement.

[bruno_menilli]

Tony

 

Just a few queries about your new guidelines:

 

 

Rule 1) Are Leica (especially R in the future) digital versus Leica film threads allowed? I'm asking this as a question regarding Nikon digital versus Nikon film in, say the artic, could be considered a very specific application?

 

 

Rule 5) To make this workable, can you explain what you would consider a profanity, or set out some guidelines?

 

Rule 7) Searching for old answers is of course correct, but what you get is, old answers, and maybe the current position, or thinking ,is what is needed, so why not allow specific questions to be revisited?

 

Many thanks for all your good work.

 

Regards

 

Bruno

[roger_michel]

josh -- as you know, i agree with you 100% on the photo posting

policy. but i think we were the only two that took a hard line when

the subject came up.

 

if you are going to try and sensor photo content, i think you will go

crazy and get ridiculed. why not try a no pics policy for a while

and see how it goes??

 

this place was great in the old days when there were no pics!!

we had a lot of fun without them!!

[Tony Rowlett]

Quite a few responses in a relatively short time, and they keep rolling in even as I write this. Many have brought up things already that I didn't consider, and several have brought up issues that I was more or less expecting. And, indeed, we have some quibbling going on. At any rate, thank you all very much for your attention to this thread. That we have this many responses, as varied as they are, is very telling of our community here.

<p>

Please understand that I did not set out to make major changes to our Leica community. Further, while this forum can get a little bit "out of hand" from time to time, it's a great forum and there aren't any major ordeals to be solved ASAP or else!

<p>

The main dilemma, of course, is keeping our sense of community while the forum grows while at the same time being a "community within a community." Back in the early days of this forum, we were "The Leica Photography Q&A Discussion Forum." Now, we're the "Leica Photography" forum within <i>photo.net</i>. There is a difference. While we are still a community, we can no longer be a <i>commune</i>; we cannot be <i>hermits</i>. We have to use photo.net in the way photo.net is designed to be used. That is the price we have to pay for our continued existence. This is the reason for directing some of the posts to other photo.net forums.

<p>

Anyway, I'll of course be closely monitoring this thread.

<p>

Svante said, "...but Brian seems determined not to do anything about the administrative problems concerning mailed in cheques."

<p>

Svante, I understand you are very frustrated by the delay in receiving your acknowledgement. There are quite a few people in the same boat. I assure you that things are being done to correct the subscription problem, and, as Bob Atkins said in another thread, there is probably nothing under-handed going on. You are probably not purposely being ignored. Please just be patient and these issues will get worked out. Meanwhile, I don't think it's fair to make public statements like that about Brian when they are only your suspicions. I'm sure Brian is doing all that he can under what seems to be mounting pressure. The good news? There are a lot more subscribers than is suggested by the screen icons. RIGHT??

<p>

As Josh has confirmed, the Leica R (SLR) line, along with all the photography that it fosters (long range, wild life, macro, etc.) is perfectly acceptable.

<p>

The Words/No Words (N/NW) posts are wonderful. I love them. I think they should be allowed. They seem to always be titled appropriately, so those who dislike them can easily skip them. As far as I am concerned, our forum is home to some photo-heros. Many of these N/NW postings are really fantastic. I chose my words carefully in the rule that applies to N/NW posts: "critique or display."

<p>

I don't know what rangefinder photography is. I know what it isn't. It's not studio photography, so that would make a Mamiya 7 Rangefinder studio portrait shot not really that acceptable. It's not macro work. A closeup of an insect's eye taken with a Canon 100mm macro lens and a strobe probably would not be that cool, except... if it was along side a photograph taken by the Leica 100/4 macro for comparison purposes, which would make it OK. A landscape photograph taken with a view camera probably would not be OK. This all seems like it makes perfect sense to me, and it really hasn't changed at all.

<p>

I hope I have addressed at least some of your concerns. As I say, I will continue to monitor this thread.

[tom h.]

"All things in moderation- including moderation"

 

Tom.

[svante.johansson]

Tony,

 

It' not just a suspicion. Brian said: "Well, I agree it is a problem, but I don't know how to solve it without hiring people to do administrative work, and we can't afford that." That statement makes it quite clear that Brian does not intend to work towards solving the problem.

 

I am quite patient, in fact I am now four and a half month patient. I really appreciate what you do, but the problem will not go away until someone takes charge over administration.

[joshroot]

Other than moving threads that really don't belong here to a forum where they belong (I.E. "Who uses the Canon G2?" or something like that), I don't think Tony or I are saying that threads will simply be deleted. Just that the OT topics with no long term value will be set to expire. They will still be there for 3-4 days, which is plenty of time for any regular user to see them and respond, even over a long weekend. You just won't be able to search back in the archives and find a post about a funny ebay auction that someone saw, or a camera store sale that happened in 2001.

 

As for knowing when a thread was going to expire, the best we can do is a post from Tony or I that says "this thread is set to expire in 4 days". It would be wonderful if there were a way to set a "timer" on the OT threads that everyone could see. That way we would all know when a thread was going to go away. But photo.net is slow to move on technical issues. And truth be told, it has far more pressing needs at the moment (lost subscription checks comes to mind) and I wouldn't even bring up an idea like that to Brian.

 

Especially considering that the "higher-ups" at photo.net generally take a MUCH harder line regarding the existance of OT threads. I think you would see the Leica forum swiftly change if there wasn't someone like Tony at the helm.

[stuart d]

I applaud the <i>intent</i> of the revised guidelines, but as many others before me have pointed out, their <i>interpretation</i> and <i>execution</i> may have a deleterious impact on the community that has formed around this forum. So please read the feedback and consider carefully before implementing the guidelines in their entirety.

 

<p>I won't reiterate any points brought up by other contributors. However, I want to point out the implications of one of Josh's comments:

 

<p> <i>"I will be moving threads to other forums if they don't fit here. If you ask about a Canon EOS lens here, the thread is going to end up in the Canon EOS forum very quickly."</i>

 

<p>Unless the moderators take special care, they will fall foul of two guidelines - #7 & #8. Simply moving a thread without first searching the archives will litter other forums with duplicate questions/threads. If it does duplicate an existing thread, will you direct the forum member to the appropriate location in the archives before deleting their message? If it hasn't been asked before, will you recategorize the thread, as each forum has its own set of categories. I point these out as concerns that (1) enforcing the guidelines will mean much more work for you, and (2) any short-cuts in moving OT threads will anger other forum moderators.

 

<p>Finally, if studio work isn't considered rangefinder photography, we'll lose Mike Dixon's work which I know is appreciated by many here.

[stuart d]

oh, and Ralph Barker's too. To lose input from either or both would be a shame.

[tom h.]

"I think you would see the Leica forum swiftly change if there

wasn't someone like Tony at the helm." - excellent point, made

all the more so by the fact it applies either side of the

"moderation line". Swiftly indeed.

 

Tom

[Tony Rowlett]

<i>"Finally, if studio work isn't considered rangefinder photography, we'll lose Mike Dixon's work which I know is appreciated by many here."</i><p>

I think Mike uses a Leica M camera for most or all of his work, which makes <i>any</i> genre by him perfectly acceptable. Be that as it may, however, his work -- even his "studio-ish" work -- doesn't strike me as studio work. I think it points to his skill as a photographer, though.

[Tony Rowlett]

It's not a hard rule. I said that! "It is preferable that posted photography be made with a Leica, but this is not a hard rule." On <i>my version</i> of the revised guidelines, this is under #11.

<p>

New guidelines notwithstanding, I am not targeting the posted photography here. And, in fact, this is not really a new rule; this is something we've lived by for years, though it may be the first time we've documented it (on my version, anyway).