7 x 17 construction

[andy_duncan1]

I just subscribed tonight, and was browsing the ULF forum for

information about 7 x 17 cameras, and noticed that there were many

people that had built their own 8 x 20, and 12 x 20, and 7 x 17

cameras. I also saw that Sandy King builds his own holders. I have

been wanting to start photographing the 7 x 17 format. So, here's

my question: those of you who have built their own cameras, and for

Sandy, how did you do it? where did you get the plans, etc... to

build your own cameras? was it much cheaper than buying a

commercially made camera? would anyone be willing to send me their

directions/specifications/plans on building a camera and film

holders? I'm a college student desperately wanting to get begin

photographing with these cameras to get a large negative for contact

printing (POP and I'm learning the Carbon process), and need a way

to get equipment for cheaper than what the manufactureres are

selling it for. Any help would be extremely appreciated.

 

Thanks in advance,

Andrew Duncan

[william_whitaker1]

Andrew,<P>

 

You have a choice. You can become either a camera builder or a photographer. The process of designing and building your own view camera (of whatever size) is fraught with complications and compromises. That is assuming you want to end up with a camera which will be something other than a nightmare to work with in the field. Building your own view camera is not an economical means of acquiring a camera. You'll easily end up spending as much as or more than a new (or used) one would cost when you factor in tooling, materials wasted, your time, etc. However simple a view camera may appear to be, to make one which functions effectively does involve a lot of work and time. That's time which would for many of us be better spent making photographs. Don't ask me how I know....<P>

 

Now I realize that I sound like an old curmudgeon (I'm neither) and I don't want to thoroughly discourage you. I would advise, however, that you learn the processes you wish to use, such as carbon, etc. in a smaller format and save your money until you can purchase and old Korona, Folmer & Schwing or such in the format you want. The cost of film and printing materials rises enormously as you increase the negative size. So does the cost of film holders.<P>

 

Regards,<BR>

Will

[allen_whittier]

Would a 7x17 "Hobo" (search "Hobo camera" on Google) work for you? One would be easy to build. I'm building an 11x14 for a 300mm lens right now. I'll build one for a 20 inch later on. You don't need to build your film holders to speck for a custom camera. Make them 2 inches thick so they are easy to build and use double sided tape, low tack, to hold the film in place. Cameras don't always need to be complicated.

[tim_curry]

I would have to second Will's answer. I've built two 4x5 "point & shoot" cameras and I can tell you that it takes a lot of time and costs more than it would to buy an older camera that works or a basket case and just fix it up. I have all of the machinery it takes and 25 years of wood working behind me (thank God it is behind me now) and it took some doing. Yes they work, but I still ended up buying a new Shen Hao 4x5 when all was said and done because it had better features.

 

I don't want to discourage you from building, but I think your time would be better spent in lurking on web sites like ebay until you find one you can afford. If you can't afford an 11x14 or 7x17 right now, save your money and time, beacuse you can't afford one. Get a 4x5 Crown Graphic setup for a few hunderd bucks and make your mistakes on it. There is no reason that a 4x5 can't give you all of the learning available in 7x17 and at 1/6 the cost. Best of luck and make no small plans, but make haste carefully.

[terence_m.]

Andy,

I agree with the others in many respects. But it all depends on expectations. Like you, I was eager to try out some alternative process. If you want a camera with features, and rigidity that you can carry everywhere, listen to the above. If you NEED to get 7x17 out of your system, and are willing to sacrifice features and portability, you have some options. I've succesfully used a camera made of two cardboard boxes (actually three) that fit into one another. The front one held the lens mounted on a lensboard and held to the camera with duct tape. The rear was actually two identical boxes. One had a ground-glass made of scuffed up plexiglass mounted to the inside of a cutout the size of the film, so that the plane of the image was the same as where the film was mounted in the other box. I used this first box to focus, marked how far into the front box it was with a ruler, removed it and inserted the film-back box to the dimension measured, making sure the boxes are parallel to each other (I guess you could make the boxes produce a little swing or tilt, but transferring the measurements would be a lot tougher). The film is hung with tape on the inside of the film-back box (make sure you mark which side is the top of the box. The film back box had a darkslide that slid out the side and had felt light traps. Inside the box it ran inside a slot made with cardboard "rails". If you know you're going to want some front rise for an architecture shot just mount the lens higher on the front box, etc.

 

Was it perfect? No. But I had spent about $20 on materials and about 5 hours of my time and got a camera that can shoot 16x20 negs with no movements. Of course, it's a pain to carry around (although light-weight), and catches every gust of wind. It also requires a bit more depth of field due to the "accuracy" of my method of measuring film distance, etc. After accuracy of focusing it's the quality of the lens, the flatness of the film and the light-tightness of the enclosure that make a usable neg. Is it high art? Probably not, but I'm happy with it.

 

Subscribe to:

http://rmp.opusis.com/cameramakers/cameramakers.html

 

and go through their archives. Some of these guys go really over the top, but others are even lower tech than my cardboard. I keep meaning to build a fixed-focus wood camera, but never get around to it. Too much work for me.

 

It's all about expectations and motivation.

[allen_whittier]

Andy,

 

Al here again. Listen to Terence on building the camera. I wrote you a description of how to make a camera out of black foam core last might and my computer crashed while sending it.

 

I recommended three boxes that fit inside each other like film boxes to creating a light trap. The middle size box moves in and out between the large and small ones that are nested together.

 

Line things with felt and shade light that might hit the sides and reflect back on the film. The inside front needs felt too. A lot of light reflects off of film and needs to stop when it hits a surface.

 

If you build a rigid single focus camera, (set at infinity or hyper focused) you can create a fine focus with thick felt or light tight foam rubber under the lens board with wing nuts through it all to tighten or loosen for fine focus. You can get a lot of focusing done in half an inch of movement. carry a few extra pieces to stack in to move the lens out for cloce-up shots.

 

I'm a retired mechanical engineer with everything I need to build a great camera in wood or metal at my disposal, and I'm building a simple box. I can build a lot of these specialized cameras in the time it takes me to build a great one. When I decide I want the great one I'll know exactly what I want and buy it, if I can get it broken for a bargain, or build it if nothing is available.

 

Once on eBay I saw a great bellows made from Nogahide with repair goop or something like it over the stitches. It was connected to two box ends with a bunji cord to hold the film holder and stoarm window wing thingies to hold the lens board. It had full front and back movement created with toilet floor screws and wing nuts in two simple wooden frames. Probably worked pretty good.

[terence_m.]

Must be an engineer thing. I'm a structural engineer. Sometimes I get more carried away with the cameras then the photography.

 

Al hit a huge point I forgot to mention: spray everything with matt black paint. Black auto primer is great. I found the black flocking in art stores is actually a little shiny.

[j.w.]

I'll jump on the old pinhole band wagon here and put my vote in for starting with a 7 x 17 pinhole box camera for starters. You won't have to worry at all about critical focussing issues here. You'll be able to figure out if handling and setup and developing and printing 7 x 17 are your cup of tea.

 

You could even start out with paper negs, then move to sheet film.

 

Part of the complexity of focus calibrations is ensuring the film plane in your holders is at the same focus plane as the view screen. Mechanical looseness in these parts, when switching between view screen and holder, often is the culprit in home built setups.

 

A better idea with DIY can be dispensing with the view screen altogether. The only focus calibration is hyperfocal distance to the holder's film plane. Then use a wire-frame peep site viewer and bubble level for getting the horizons straight.

[wayne_crider4]

Do you have a full wood shop to work in? What about just a pinhole camera

from a wood box. Fast to make and cheap lens.

[john_gerndt1]

I completely relate to your need for a large format camera on a �budget�. Step one, is a lens. Check your lens to make sure it will cover the format you wish to use. Use whatever you need to hold a sheet of matt sprayed glass/plastic behind the lens, garbage bags will shut out enough light to see the image. Look for how sharp that image is too as many lenses, especially old ones, throw a bigger circle than they throw a sharp circle.

 

As to the build, remember that movement of the camera IS an issue, both moving it from place to place and its own movement in the wind or vibrations from the shutter. Rigid is good. Look at some very early cameras (1800s) for ideas. If it is quite rigid you can skip the tripod and use monopods � saves a couple of pounds on the head anyway.

 

I would make your film holder first. I use wedges to tension and hold the film in place. Use phenolic plastic for film plane and dark slides. Everything else is way too heavy. I made the back that holds the ground glass interchangeable with the film holder � remove and replace. This is WAY easier than spring fitting and is less weight for the legs of the camera to bear. Remember too that you will need one huge dark cloth to allow you to back up far enough to see your huge image! You might consider a baby buggy or wagon to haul this stuff in if you are going out with it anywhere. Friends make good pack mules but they loose interest pretty fast.

 

Best of luck. Consider learning with paper negs at first. I am sure you know all about the cost of learning.

 

Cheers,

[wayne_crider4]

This page is kind of interesting although it was a 4x5 that was built. Maybe it

will give you some inspiration and insight on building a camera.

 

http://www.webstar.nl/~job/newcampg.html

[Sandeha Lynch]

If you are inclined to build, then draw up your own plans and build. Better cameras can be bought, but building will teach you something extra about the mechanics of the beast and also <i>why</i> good LF cameras cost good money. Apart from that, go pinhole with paper negs, (as suggested above) and experiment... you can knock up a good pinhole camera in a day or three, but again, that's if you are a natural mechanical fiddler.<div></div>

[andy_duncan1]

I have another question, that me and a friend have: could I take hardware and other parts off of another camera and use those on the 7 x 17? More specifically, parts off a 5 x 7? There is one on ebay right now that is really cheap (it doesn't have bellows or ground glass).

 

Thanks again.

You've all given me something to think about.

Andrew

[jnanian]

hi andy:

 

i regulary use a 4x5 box camera from the 1890s. it is a fixed focus, simple lens,

guillotine shutter, with a rear compartment for film holders.

it would be very easy to make a similar camera that takes very large film/paper like a

hobo or a cardboard camera as others have mentioned. i made a 8x20 pinhole a year

ago out of foam core & gaffer tape- i think it cost me about $6.

the only problem with cameras like this are that you can only take one view / outing

unless you have some sort of film/paper holder or a way to store exposed materials

within the camera. the "mandelette post card cameras" had a unique solution to this

problem. there was a sleeve that you put your arm into, and you manually removed

one sheet of exposed paper. the exposed paper was then stored under the camera in

a "light proof tank" until you arrived home to process it. i have been meaning to

replicate this system for use with a ULF box camera, but haven't gotten around to it.

 

good luck!

 

- john

[j.w.]

John Nanian:

 

I've also sketched in my journal ideas for a similar camera setup: a changing bag sleeve on the camera's side, with a light-tight removable door. There's three compartments, for unexposed, exposed and the film plane itself. You could load up a whole box of film into the camera at one shot.

 

Of course, this setup is only for pre-focussed designs; it doesn't easily accomadate a viewing screen - unless the three-compartment magazine is removable, and is replaced with a view screen for composition and setup.

 

An additional DIY thought regarding the 7X17 format is to use 9 1/2" wide aerographic roll film, incorporated into a LF panoramic roll-film camera. The challenge here would be the processing afterwards - knowing where to cut the roll into sections for processing without dissecting a latent image.

 

One possible solution is to use a small hole punch in the darkroom while loading the camera: perforate the edge with a hole to mark the space between each frame. Your camera would then have a "simple" roller mechanism that completes a circuit when it hits the hole, lighting an LED on the outside of the box to tell you that you've advanced the film properly.

 

My sketch journals are full of such crazy DIY ideas.

[jnanian]

Joe:

 

that is a great idea :)

 

i was thinking of a small chamber under the camera - maybe a flap of canvas/ satin

fabric? - and a cotton glove attached to a changing bag that is like a tube that can be

rolled up when not used. all the paper/film is just stacked up ( kind of like what you

said) but there are just clips and a springs that keep the film/paper with tension to a

small frame that holds everyting into place. after each shot, arm in the tube, take the

exposed "thing" and put it under into the "exposed sleeve". no ground glass, just a

scope or a sports finder like on a speed graphic :)

 

one of these days :)

 

-john

[sandy_king]

Andy,

 

Let me clarify. I am involved in the production of S&S filmholders.

We make these in all ULF sizes, and in custom sizes by special

order, and sell them through Quality Camera Company in

Atlanta. Most of the woodwork for these holders is done by a

master woodworker (not me) who devotes 100% of his time to

woodworking.

 

I have personally made several very functional ULF cameras,

including a 11X14" and a 20X24". Making cameras is very

challenging but quite feasible for persons with modest wood

working and metal working skills.

 

Making film holders is another thing altogether. The level of skill

required to make precision film holders is of an order quite

beyond that needed for making cameras. At least that is my

opinion based on my own experience.

[douglas_finlayson]

Andy,

 

My take on this is similar to, but not the same as, some of the other replys you've received.

 

1) Check the price on film before you commit to 7x17. Learning large format on 7x17 would be a very expensive learning curve.

2) Making your own LF camera has its appeal, but it requires a good bit of work, and therefore time, before you'll be shooting pictures with it.

3) I needed to try a couple cameras before I realized what worked and what drove me nuts about a LF camera. For example, there are a number of ways to handle front tilt. Some, IMO, work better than others.

4) You can learn alternative processes with a 5x7 negative as well as a 7x17 negative. A framed 5x7 looks good, IMO.

5) If you want a not-too-expensive, old 5x7 or 8x10 camera, hunt for an old Agfa Ansco with the metal plate on the front (I've seen it on the right and left) so that front tilt is independent of front rise. I suspect somewhere between $200 and $350 on eBay. If it needs a new bellows, you can contact Western Bellows. They will sell you the bellows. You'll have to do the replacement work, which won't be easy, so ask about the condition of the bellows before you buy.

6) If you've decided to get a 7x17, you might contact Bender Photographic. He might have or be willing to make the parts for a 7x17 that you could put together. I've never made one of these, but it doesn't look difficult.

 

Best regards,

 

Doug