Any good undergrad schools with dedicated photo programs?

[david_nevin1]

I'll chime in with an answer, sorta just to muddy the water even more for Jay.

 

It's sort of a "money can't buy happiness" vs. the fact that money allows you freedom

(in the form of choices).

 

After getting a graduate degree in a liberal art, I went into journalism for a few years,

including a couple of years as a photojournalist. This was in the late 80's--I ended up

at a small town newspaper making $5.50 an hour (it was really cheap to live in that

town, but still the pay was just a little over min. wage). I soon ended up miserable--

not because I didn't enjoy what I was doing, but I just couldn't get beyond the pay. So

I moved on, finally ending up as an info. systems manager, which pays much better,

allows me to buy a few nice toys (cameras) and occasionally take a vacation to some

place where I can take some pictures (I do mostly landscape work.) I don't particularly

like my job, but it's not a bad deal.

 

A co-worker at that small town newspaper back then, who I always felt was a far

better photographer than I could ever be, still lives and works there. He's incredibly

happy (so I assume--he was the last time I talked to him) and although he does the

typical, crappy small town photojournalism assignments--he occasionally takes a

shot that is just wonderful, and that could easily grace the wall of any art studio. Of

course, he gets little or no recognition--but his work is good, he's doing what he

wants and is happy.

 

Sometimes I wonder if I took the wrong path all those years ago. I think the advise

given here--the negative stuff--is very sound--if you expect to live a typical middle-

class lifestyle. But if you are prepared to make some sacrifices, can manage to live

within your means (often limited)--it is possible to be happy--without money. But try

to approach it as realistically as possible, and realize that with less money you'll have

fewer choices. But as my old co-worker demonstrates, maybe you don't need that

many choices.

 

And I would recommend a small, liberal arts university--it's much easier to get

individual attention from instructors. Look around the arts departments--while they

might not offer a BFA in photography, you might find a school that has a couple of

photographers on the art department faculty. . .

[jnanian]

hi jay:

 

a few things to think about - going to state schools is a good idea, if you live in the

state so you can declare residency - otherwise you will be paying a pretty penny as

you would at any school. usually the requirement is 1-2 years. mass-art is a great

school, and in boston there are a handful of other schools too - new england school

of photography, art institute of boston, museum of fine arts just to name a few of

the art schools. it a pretty idea to get a well rounded education - because you'll need

to nurture your head as much as your photography & you'll have to do the schmooze-

thing if you plan on selling your art to museums. tufts university offers a dual degree

-ba/bfa 5 year program with the museum school (mfa). i don't think they offered

schmoozing, but they have paid and unpaid internships with galleries and museums,

so at least you will be able to make useful contacts. if you have to declare residency,

try to get a job at a gallery or museum so you can get your foot in the door or at least

learn how the dealers decide what they want to take-on.

 

people have chimed in telling you it is a difficult field to get ahead in. this is true.

like many things, when you are self employed, it often takes 7 years to sink or swim.

if you really love what you are doing, and are happy, you will be okay even when you

have to tighten your belt. :)

 

find a niche, do your "thing" well, and after a while you will find ( read : sell) work.

don't forget to be patient, it won't happen overnight like the starn twins or anything

like that.

 

good luck

 

- john

[richard_boulware]

It's always amazing to me how many non-professionals like to post like they are.

 

John Cook made some excellent points and Munson's 'ivory tower' just collapsed...as I would have expected. Munson is not in touch with todays market...or reality. (No offense intended)

 

Having spent my life as a very successful advertising and magazine photographer, owning and operating the second largest studio in Denver,....paying the mortgage and keeping a well dressed wife, and two kids and paying their education, I know what it means to compete and run your own business. It is not for the faint of heart.

 

You have to be good...and better than your competitors. It's a nose-to-nose horse race and victory is always only by a 'nose'. One month you have $50,000 in the bank, and for the next two months you have FIVE BUCKS...and your only as good as your last job!

 

I had the edge because I went to Art Center in California. We had a lot of Brooks transfers, but they never lasted and washed out.. Art Center is kind of like a Marine Boot Camp. Only the best survive.

 

In my class when I started in 1958 were: Larry Dale Gordon, David Muench, J.Barry O'Rourke, and Carl Furuta...and other fine shooters. Carl has most of the best accounts in California tied up. O'Rourke was head of photography at Playboy, and Gordon was his second in command. Muench, most of you picture post card guys know about. Good man, and a good shooter. All have continued to be successful.

 

Cook makes some very good points. The world of the professional photographer has changed, and many are starving or getting out of the business. Stock houses and all this digital BS has killed the market. Hell, I know one stock broker and good friend, who digitally manipulates shots and sells them like crazy, but as a pro friend of mine in NYC just wrote me, there is a backlash coming. Many big auto makers in Detroit are being swamped by complaints from viewers of their ads, complaining that they recognize the scenic background...AND IT DOESN"T LOOK ANYTHING LIKE THAT. NYC agencies are under increasing pressure to clean up their act and get back to the reality of the set, and loose the digital crap. It's like making WALLPAPER.

 

If some reading this post think I am blowing smoke, just go to your local library. Except for the time I spent as an aviation executive, my entire career has been as a working photographer...and I'm damned proud of it. Just look up my name in the Who's Who volumes for most of the 1990's. The editions of WW in the World, American, the West, or Finance and industry. It's all there for you to read lest you think I am blowing sunshine up your skirt.

 

Cook is right. Commercial photography HAS changed and it's a dog eat dog market out there right now, and very few are making it.

 

As I sit here at my computer, above me are dozens of awards and gold medals for photography. I was lucky to hit the market at the right time, and I owe most of my success to Art Center.

 

I've come back out of early retirement under pressure from some old clients and am shooting again, but I wouldn't start out cold right now for all the promisses in the world.

 

Now I'm going to mix some commercial ad and magazine jobs with pictures I always wanted to shoot but never had the time because I was always busting my ass for some nutty ad agency art director.

 

If your going to try to make it, do it slow. Keep your good job and start by trying to make some money with your hobby. If you are good enough,....and only 1% are...then make the transition gradually.

 

Cook is right. The world of professional photography HAS changed, and not necessarily for the better.

 

Respectfully, Richard Boulware - Denver.

[psychophoto]

Ivory tower or no, I'd rather have a life than a living.

<p>

And Mr Boulware - I'd like to respond to this comment: "Munson is not in touch with

todays market...or reality. (No offense intended)"

<p>

Simply, go to hell. I hereby withdraw from any futher participation in this or any

other Photo.net forum.

[jorge_gasteazoro4]

<i>Simply, go to hell. I hereby withdraw from any futher participation in this or any other Photo.net forum.</i><p>

 

c ya, dont let the door hit you on your way out......

[claire_curran1]

As a long time professional photographer, I completely agree with Messrs. Cook, Ambrose, and Boulware. It is very difficult to get a decent start nowadays in commercial photography. It is not a lucrative career, especially for a beginner. If you feel weddings, portraits, and society events are beneath your photographic talents, then I would suggest another career. John Cook is absolutely correct in recommending that you find a niche market and make a name photographing that. You will make far more money photographing show dogs than you ever would as a landscape photographer.

 

I would recommend that you study marketing and business at a good school. Get a job as a photo assistant or hire on as an unpaid intern with a successful photographer. You will learn far more from a successful working pro than from "photographers" turned teachers in a 4 year college. Keep in mind that successful photographers aren't necessarily the best or most technically skilled, but they do have an incredible ability to market themselves. Learn how to market yourself before you do anything else in your pursuit of a career as a photographer.

[richard_boulware]

Claire Curran's words about 'marketing yourself' are WISE WORDS. Anyone anticipating a professional career should memorize them, set them in type and post them above your darkroom door to be seen every day. Portflios do not sell themselves. They need quite a bit of help from the person carrying the portfolio. Any successful person I have ever know, had that 'sales ability'. Thanks, Claire.

[david_blackett]

If it's for fine arts I put in a vote for the Maine Photographic Workshops in Rockport Manie. I went there for my first two semesters (way back when) and it was worth every penny. Heard its still right up there as a great place to go. If you like a warmer climate in the winter Savannah College of Art and Design has a great program as well. A Plus for both locations is that you'll never have a lack of good subject matter.

 

David

[_________1]

Jay, you should talk to photographers who are successful in their fields and you will get a completely different and positive take on it. Of course, those photographers are not to be found here because they do not have the time to chat on forums.

 

Often, comments tell the reader more about the person making the comments than they do about the subject at hand. Talk to a loser and you will get comments from the perspective of a loser.

 

Thankfully for you, Jay, this is not 1958 nor is it 1970. This is 2003 and you are 18, not 68 nor 55. You are at the beginning of your journey, not at its end and you have a whole life ahead of you. Use it to study what you are passionate about. Life will be a tragedy if you do not harness your passion. Yes, one can fail at being a Physician's Assistant too. Just as one can succeed in photography where others have failed.

 

Nobody guarantees that it is going to be a bed of roses but that does not mean that we should all go out and kill ourselves right now.

 

You make a mature decision and you be prepared to take the lumps or the rewards.

 

One lousy day of photography is better than one good day without it.

 

There are losers in every field. There are winners too. You decide if you want to be in the camp of losers or winners.

 

John, Richard, Claire, Henry. If that is what you guys feel about the state of photography today, get out of it right now. You are way past your sell-by date. Make way for the up and coming ones or has the market already decided that for you?

 

And Jorge, f**k you.

 

Don't trample on a young man's dreams and passion. That is a reprehensible crime. We were all 18 once upon a time too. If you guys feel that you have made the wrong career choices, that applies only to you. Be mature enough to accept it.

 

You are all right on one point: the photography market has changed. Trouble is, you guys did not keep up and thus made yourselves irrelevant. Don't blame photography, blame yourselves.

 

David, hang in there. You will make it.

 

P.S. Contrary to what is said, I do not hate what I do for my living. Yes, I have demanding clients who often do not understand the process, I get into shouting matches with art directors, running a photography business pains me at times. But when I see the final result, it is damn satisfying. That comes with the territory of any artistic endeavour. How can making a living doing what you love kill your love of it? It does not square unless you really do not love it to begin with. If you truly love photography, there will be struggles to achieve your results. There will be compromises. This is where the challenge and the art lie.

[_________1]

I'd knew that I'd regret not taking three deep breaths before I posted the last message.

 

I wish to apologise unreservedly if I had offended anyone with my words and expletives.

 

Like David, I shall leave.

 

Thanks for everything, photo.net.

[mike_troxell2]

Jay,

 

Before someone convinces you to give up and go for a career at Wal-Mart or whereever, you might want to take a look at a couple of these books. They present a realistic side to the subject of making a living at photography or any form of art.

 

Art and Fear: Observations on the Perils (and Rewards) of Artmaking by David Bayles & Ted Orland

 

How to Survive & Prosper as an Artist: Selling Yourself Without Selling Your Soul by Caroll Michels

 

The Artist Way by Julia Cameron

[mike_troxell2]

"One lousy day of photography is better than one good day without it."

 

Best quote I've heard in the entire discussion. I think the question that you should be asking is what kind of lifestyle do you want. If you have to be driving a Mercedes or whatever and have to have the best clothes and the finest apartment or house, then work as a corporate wage-slave like I did for 10 years in the IT field (ok, maybe I am a little bitter about that :). If your happy being able to pay your bills, driving an older model car and wearing last years fashions but doing what you enjoy, then do what you enjoy. Its your decision and one choice is not necessarily better than the other. Just make sure you can live with whatever choice you make.

[michael_a._smith1]

I see you mentioned you were interested in photography as fine

art--not commercial photography. You have received a number of

excellent recommendations--and some not so good ones. My advice, in

some regards, is not that different from others'.

 

To learn photography, go as far as you can on your own. Then assist

photographers whose work you respect. Work for them until you feel you

have learned all they have to offer, or until you have gotten all you

feel you need. Then work for another if you feel it necessary. Each

photographer has a different approach to living as well as to

photographing, and you will learn as much from their living as from

their photography.

 

By all means, become educated. If you are an auto didact you can do it

on your own--listen to fine music, read great literature, study art

history, and study history and see how the dismal situation the world

is in today relates to the past. And learn to write well. That, and

speaking in front of a group, are two of the the most important skills

you can develop. If you don' t feel you can do all this on your own,

go to a college somewhere and take a liberal arts curriculum and begin

learning all this stuff there. Do not study photography--or if you do,

do not major in it. The schools will kill it for you--that is

virtually guaranteed. The proof: damn few photography majors or even

MFAs in photography are actively pursuing careers as fine art

photographers--or even trying to. If you feel you must study

photography somewhere, go to a place like RIT, expensive though it is,

where at least you will learn your craft.

 

Good luck to you,

[jorge_gasteazoro4]

<i>And Jorge, f**k you. </i><p>

 

Lol..very articulate...the sign of a sharp and well defined mind. Obviously we wont be missing much by you leaving..:-)

[geoffrey_swenson]

I guess David �Bulldog(?)� Munson got rabies. We wish him a speedy recovery.

[sk_arts]

just to point of that Rockport college, when i went there, was 18,000/year and is not accredited.

 

Great school, but horribly orginised.