Littman 45 Single/110 Polaroid question

[kamm]

Hmmm...Interesting, but i just did a search on this site and noticed that you have had this conversation a few times before. To be honest it seemed that quite a few people werent happy that you had patented something that they asserted had been in common use for quite some time prior to your invention.

See:

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=005ypC

and

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=0069fE

 

Really, why not just leave it alone...it seems that you are creating your own problem by jumping on every little mention of anything that even has the vaguest similarities to your camera. Just because somebody modifies a polaroid to do the same job as your camera doesnt mean that they are trying to threaten your business, and after looking at the rundown on your manufacturing process I cant imagine anybody would even come close to emulating your modifications anyhow. You dont hold patent over graflex, you dont hold patent over polaroid, I would imagine that there are numerous ways to place the two together and achieve a similar end result...without infringing upon your patent or upsetting your business base. Looks like its all been said before and it has come full circle. So from what started as a question about your camera vs. alternatives has turned in to an academic debate about patent law. I suppose the only way any of this would ever get sorted would be for somebody to make one these things and sit it beside yours in a court somewhere, wast a whole lotta time and money just to see if they achieved virtually the same result in a mechanically (too) similar package...I for one could not be bothered.

[william_littman]

Do you also read what I write? I made reference to these threads at the very beginning of this discussion, that is why I cant believe that im being asked to describe other peoples products on their behalf because the public confuses them with mine??

 

I was the first one who insisted that this has been an issue for me for a long time, and a month ago after a discussion on the matter

the initiator of those threads insisted my patent had to be respected,and at the same time I agreed to allow all such efforts to proceed and I have but I wasn't able to limit my claims as I explained

 

I reiterate I am not preventing such offers from proceeding, that is all I can do, but don't ask me to validate them because I have explained why I cant, this thread made it clear that such offers have been confused with my product and that causes me to have to intervene and I'm constantly insisted that I should validate that which I don't know or approve of when I don't due to my own experience , I have read thru this thread and it is a relentless instance that I should be the one validating or explaining the offers of others, I'm signing out insisting that My patent is legal and needs to be respected .

 

and as I insisted earlier if other offers do not meet the claims in mine I have no problem with them, if in the future I have certainty that they don't then ill be glad to participate in a comparison , in the meantime I will tolerate them as I have, and in return I expect to not be asked to participate in what I don't agree with,I feel it is enough that my product has been compared to the best products,

 

that is all I have stated It is my right and wish to leave it at that, do as you wish, and as I have no more time and im behind in my work , I feel I have contributed what I could, allow me to focus on my work, I really need to, and I really would have been more open if everything said by the reviews of my product had not been disputed, im sorry but if the words of those I respect are met with disbelief then I feel it is pointless for me to continue, being that the best insist that my product has exceeded the best and you insist I should compare it to what I don't believe in, you are correct, you don't need my opinion,

 

or consent, Mr. Morgan asked for it and I explained why It wasn't my place or wish to continue. as I am certain that I have cooperated as I promised, I would have hoped that I wouldn't have to clarify other peoples products on their behalf, it is not too much to ask,

 

I don't have ten days a month to do so, and I have a right to be upset if the public confuses my established product with another and instigates me to clarify it on their behalf.

 

I answered what my product was and I should have been left alone at that, Please desist in insisting otherwise,Mr. Morgan who initiated this thread insisted that reviews must be independent and that goes both ways, don't blame me if I disagree that my name and site are used to validate other products because that is not independent,

 

I have had disagreements and I felt they had been left behind and that is why I do not appreciate being cornered into re living the past

I am not hiding it as it was I who first mentioned it as a reason why I wished to focus on my work and when I am asked to describe someone's product because the public has confused it with mine, that shouldn't be so hard to understand

 

If I will not be allowed to focus on my work then the problem for me exists in continuity and this is what has happened here, I agreed to

look the other way even though I have no certainty of prior effort and I have kept my word I expect that in return I have the ability to focus on my work and not the work of others It is a fair request

and I believe it was agreed.

 

I don't want to have to keep asking for your consideration, If I sound incoherent at times is because I neither have the time or enjoy when people insist that I should do or say what is not my business

 

Please?

[kamm]

Same thing over again... All we wanted to know was if your camera was worth the money...all we got was an earful of how generous you are for turning a blind eye to these discussions about alleged possible infringements on your patent. Great, thanks for the information and opinions. GO AND FIND ANOTHER FORUM to guide the poor lost sheep home who seem to be having major issues with confusing your camera with all the other polaroid/graflex/rengefinder graftees in this minefiled that the 4 x 5 market has become.

 

This thread now rates higher on search engines than your site. Free publicity I suppose?

[adrian_morgan]

Mr Littman,

 

Questions get raised.

 

Leica M7 vs Voigtlander R2?

Why? because they are similar - Both are rangefinders, both have a similar function, both take Leica lenses, both are 35mm, but one is a lot less than the other in cost. People still buy the Leica - because as a product it stands up on it's own.

 

Nikon D2H vs Canon 1D?

Why? Because both are Digital 8fps, 4 mega pixel pro line bodies - They are a similar price, and it comes down to features. And people choose to buy both.

 

If any product has a comparison with another, then it warrants examination. Your product, whether you believe it or not, whether you want it to have or not, and whether it is 'true' competition or not, definitely has a competitor. You can see on the other links Mr Pryor mentioned, there is evidence that other 4x5 combinations have been created prior to yours - in fact there is a picture of said conversion done by Noah Schwartz in 1979-1980 (photo can be seen at http://www.photo.net/photo/1750929) . This is your competition. Your argument that you have a patent means nothing to the consumer. You had better create a reasonable argument about what it is your camera does, that is better than anyone else's (note I have provided one for you to use above).

 

Even if you try and ignore your competition, you will see my statements don't even acknowledge your competition, but talk about YOUR EXPERIENCE!! Not any one else's, and you are not deriding your competition. You are talking about how you found the lens didn't cover 4x5 without modification. You are talking about how your modification requires rebuilding of the rangefinder, and how your modification requires 4-5 cameras to complete your 1 finished body.

 

if you want to continue arguing about your patent, then feel free to do so in a legal forum somewhere - just remember the US patent office issued a patent for all DTMF tone combinations up to 16 digits - effectively making it illegal for you to phone anyone, without applying to use the patent 'song'. Defend your product, not your patent.

 

You choose to defend your product - as is your right, however I do note, not one client of yours has stepped in to help defend the product.

 

Not even the one that highlighted this 'new disruptive thread'

[davidv1]

I bet nobody asks this question again.

[adrian_morgan]

David,

 

I forgot to say before, thanks for the suggestion about the Crown graphic. I'm in the process of investigating. I like the ability to hand hold my cameras so i will look down this path first.

 

Adrian

[william_littman]

I have insisted very early that my product is not a mere conversion and that I do not offer it, therefore I do not consider mere conversions my competition, It should have been left alone when I insisted that I do not offer it because I do not believe in it, and I believe that fully answered the question that could be expected of me, but you wouldn't let go , after I had no choice I had to say that i cannot participate in a comparison because I have unsettled issues,

and your need for information cannot be more important than my need to be able to coexist in peace and I ask that you understand that and be considerate towards me.

 

 

All other tech questions about my camera were also answered to the best of my ability and it is not an unfair request If I ask that questions about other products be answered by those who make a product and not by me, My clients provided comments about their enjoyment of their cameras, that should be enough defense, If on top of asking me to stop working to answer things that should be answered by others, you cant expect my clients to stop what they are doing to do so as well,I will ask one of them to see what he thinks but I find it in poor taste that

" defense" is expected it shows that im under attack. and I shouldn't be.and just because you buy something doesn't mean that you agree to become the poster boy for it and I don't have the stomach to disrupt them because I am being attacked , first because it should be the case , and sufficient

that I post what they have been willing to say and I have answered what I could, If that isn't enough then , there is not much I can do.

 

I insisted that the value of my product isn't such because it is also converted but because of the summation of its conveniences ,and If you will not believe my words about my own,little business do I have describing the product of others ,as I insist that I feel strongly about it to the point that I have said nothing different for 2 years about the subject of conversion .

 

I feel that a photo that doesn't show the conversion is not evidence and I made reference to the earlier threads first because I was on vacation for the first time in many years and I deserve to have a minute of peace at some point and I pleaded that if you would please just let me answer what is my place to answer and get back to my life, and said clearly that I was attempting to coexist with the other options and when I insisted that I preferred to not answer on their behalf I have the right .

 

I do not expect any of you to agree with any of my tech opinions or anything else which may be my opinion but once I see that I feel I have answered what i could and you dont seem to agree I can feel that I have done my part for better or worse.

 

 

Thank you.

[kamm]

Adrian,

You could try this guy, looks like he has made his own way in the conversion stakes, he has some really interesting stuff on his pages...and most of the bits are readily available in Aus.

He has a crown graphic shooting on 120 rollfilm...and a pola 600 with a 4x5 interchangeable back on it.

 

http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~razzle/

[davidv1]

Adrian,

 

While you're searching, you should also ask yourself: will you ever want movements, or a rotating back? The Super Graphic has these features, a built-in rangefinder and is made of aluminum rather than wood. There's a neat article about them on the CameraQuest.com site (it's not responding for me right now or I'd post the link). The Super generally costs a bit more than a Crown, but the extra features might be worth it. You should also look around the Graflex.org site for more info on both the Crown and the Super.

 

Good luck, and be sure to let us know how it goes.

 

Regards, David

[davidv1]

Here's the link I mentioned:

 

http://www.cameraquest.com/supergrp.htm

 

Regards, David

[adrian_morgan]

David,

 

Thanks for the suggestion - are these handholdable? (And I do use the term fairly loosely!

 

I'd also think, this won't be the last time this type of question is asked - After all it is a large format equipment forum. I was thinking of asking a new question comparing the Speed Graphic to the Littman 45s :-)

 

From where I sit, Mr Littman seems to have a good expensive product , but a completly defensive attitude about it. He seems to not be willing to compare it to other cheaper (and possbily not as good) products, as he doesn't recognise them as his competition. Very odd since they began from the same products - they may not have ended up the same, but there beginining were identical. I think he feels he is above questioning. It is also interesting he keeps talking about being respected, when he has hardly offered respect in the other forum entries I have seen.

 

It is also pretty odd that the manufacturer would weigh in so heavily on the discussion. Can you image Leica argueing everytime someone asked if the Leica was better than the R2? Leica's are generally defended by the owners of the camera. And they fight hard for them.

 

I can imagine this is not the last time we will hear from mr littman.......

 

Thanks

 

Adrian

[davidv1]

Adrian,

 

The Graphics are hand holdable to some extent. They've got a thick leather strap on one side for exactly that use. Some folks feel that a little weight makes it easier to hold a camera steady. A flash can help, too. John Brownlow did some street photography awhile back with a Super Graphic. You could have a look at his site - he talks about his cameras at www.pinkheadedbug.com/gear/cameras.html. You might also drop him an email about his experiences with the Graphic.

 

Oh yeah, just thought of this: The Koni-Omega 100/200/Rapid/Rapid-M cameras have accurate rangefinders and parallax-correcting framelines. Okay, it's 6x7, not 4x5, and you sure won't get any Polaroids, but the lenses are plenty sharp. So there's another option for you. They're going around $200 - $300 with 90mm lens, too.

 

Can't help Mr. Littmann with his marketing expertise, or rather lack of it. He's not the first entrepreneur to work hard at alienating customers. Some folks just never learn.

 

Good luck with your decision.

 

Regards, David

[william_littman]

you can find a comparison to the graphic cameras in the

interview with alban Christ and other owner comments provided earlier in this discussion ,

i will ask owners of both the Littman the Graphics and the Lihoff toyo etc, to participate and when i have time i will provide a comparison which offers the tech data of the Littman which isnt available from other sources.

[william_littman]

As the tone of the discussion has been established by the original question, and those who participate side with that or risk

to have to " defend" the product or that their words will be met as were mine,, I have received emails from those in the sidelines who disagree with the participants , but who at the same time do not, may not wish to come under attack for doing so and and one has authorized me to post his comments" as a response to the following " I do note, not one client of yours has stepped in to help defend the product. "

 

first response;

Monday, November 17, 2003 11:59 AM

Dear Mr. Littman

I was following with great interest your discussion on Photo.net. I think that you did wery well in protecting your work from not so kind oppinions from your kritics.Best regards

Boris Balant.

 

Others will do so directly , I do not expect anyone to have to come under attack ,potential customers have not been alienated, I appreciate the continued support.

[william_littman]

this is another email i got today, neither a customer nor

related to the thread but has authorized me to post his comment .

Hello William

 

I finally got it!! The idea behind the camera. After agonizing whether to

get a Mamiya 7- I figured out that your camera is so much better. The

advantages are: 1) 4x5 neg 2) with a Gramatic back you can shoot 6 shots

continuously 3) ability to use Polaroid film w/ single sheets or pack film

3) Can focus closer 4) Compact (w/ the 127mm lens).

 

Not being a view camera- I understand why the ground glass is optional. It

would defeat the intent of keeping this camera light and take the

spontenaeity out of it.

 

I just wanted to let you know this.

 

I'm still putting money aside and trying to rearrange my finances for this.

I will probably get the camera w/ the 127mm lens- I like wider angles. The

110mm XL lens would be nice but is a little out of my budget. If possible -

I think you have a great camera here. I am glad to have been able to meet

w/ you at the Photo Expo in NYC and be able to handle the camera.

 

Best of luck.

 

Yoichi Kawamura

[kamm]

Has anybody seen a modified polaroid 110/120 etc with tilts/shifts?...i know its a (relatively) small package but i would be interested to see if it is posible to to these mods so as to be able to get a little more flexibilty out of it. Are there any insurpassable complications to doing this? I realise there are other cameras out there that are already very capable (as mentioned in prev posts) but its the quirkiness and the challenge of it ;) they do have a certain je ne sais quoi.

[alban_christ]

I have come here after i was informed by Mr Littman that my words is

response to Mr Littmans questions about my experience with his product over

two years in an interview he conducted were doubted as "beeing authored"

let me just insist that every word in my responses was what " I " meant.

Thought I work for major publications on a regular basis using the camera. I

am not made of money,this is not a toy and photography is very expensive

and the price of his product is merited and I will buy and other one.

 

I have read thru this thread and I must insist that this is not fair to Mr Littman

who is a gentleman and very dedicated to his work and if as a result of such

dedication he cannot on top of that be expected to agree to this type of abuse

and neither do I.

 

My words in such interview should not have to be notarized before they are

beleived to be mine, and anyway, those who dont have the willingness to

beleive what Mr Littman has to say , are wasting their time after all that he has

said has been proven entirely.

 

Now that I said what I had to say I ask that any questions you may have for me

be considered answered by my responses in such interview as i trully dont

have the time to get involved and besides, I not made of money and when I

bought the camera few people knew about it, and the price was identical

and so now that the camera's standing and recognition has reached the

Zenith.and its validated by the best, I dont see what all the fuss is all about.

 

I have been looking for such a camera since I came out of school, after

trying a lot of different products, here it is I had the genious to think of it

and made it.. this exactly what I was looking for and I never seen any

product beeing able to perform the same way.

 

thak you

 

a. Christ

[adrian_morgan]

Mr Christ

 

Thanks for your response. I was not meaning to say your interview had to be notarised in order for it to be valid - what I was alluding to is an interview by the manufacturer is going to be biased. I strongly believe that owuld be the same for Nikon, Leica, Kodak or any other manufacturer.

 

I originally asked some questions on the camera to try and get some real world response - hardly expecting to be responded to by the manufacturer Mr Littman himself!! however Mr littmans words, abundant as they may be, hardly answers any questions. To search through his words for answers is extremely difficult as his language is quite hard to follow. He keeps responding about patents and the like, when all am I am trying to do is find out the differences between other conversions and his camera. Eventually after sorting through his comments I beleive I have discovered the major differences.

 

Mr Littman needs some marketing and PR lessons. He has a product to sell and yet acts like someone is out to get him personally if his product gets questioned. He accuses me of starting a dirsuptive thread, and being an instigator with a friend because we live in the same country - Hardly the actions of a 'gentleman'

 

I can understand his dedication to his product, but not the attitude. As you can see above, I'm not the only one to wonder 'what the??' with his attitude.

 

Thanks for you comments. I appreciate them.

 

Adrian

 

Adrian

[kamm]

Alban,

 

So, how do you find the camera? Can you give us a TECHNICAL opinion on its graces and shortcomings or not?

[william_littman]

for those in the sidelines who did not find the interview with Alban Christ , the link;http://www.photoworkshop.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgiarchive=8&num=408

 

 

 

Mr. Gentleman Let me just state that if my marketing skills are poor and my camera is considered as it is, then you should believe its standing is true and merited, and not a result of marketing..

 

Ill tell you what is the problem with my attitude, on my vacation i posted my first response you replied

 

"Does anyone else have instructions on adding a 4x5 back to the Polaroid cameras? Any instructions would be handy. maybe if I am not satisfied with the results I get by making my own, I can start saving for one of the Littman singles."

 

i should have said sure ( 6608971) thank you very much.

 

You havent an interest in communicating with me as a manufacturer as when you went to my site you didnt ask me.

so dont obligate me as a big manufactuer whn i work by myself and im on vacation.

 

(dis·rupt ;to interrupt the normal course or unity)

 

I have a product that sells ,that is my modus operandi , "not a product to sell", as you told Alban, your actions in this thread starting with the original question aim at changing product that sells into product to sell , that is disruptive . that is the problem with my attitude, no one else need agree but most do. those who do qualify as potential customers .

 

you insist it is merited I have verified it isn't.

 

you also aim at insisting in refering to my product as a conversion whn I do not even offer such after learning it isnt merited and not the value of my product and then you insist in comparing my camera to conversions instead of learning what is valueble about it by insisting H ardly answers any questions", I answer the questions in a way so as to compensate for the confusion you are creating by rattling the non event issue .

 

let me leave it at that and I hope that it ceases.

[_________1]

I find the Polaroid 600SE with a 545i or Pro back to give much the same advantages at a price below $500.

[kamm]

Seeing as you are so fond of Dictionary.com:

 

con·vert

 

To change (something) into another form, substance, state, or product; transform: convert water into ice.

To change (something) from one use, function, or purpose to another; adapt to a new or different purpose: convert a forest into farmland.

 

Its a CONVERSION, no matter what proprietary improvements you make you are still CONVERTING and Polaroid 110 to take 4x5 film.

[kamm]

Anatole,

Thanks, looking up some more info on that one now...another interesing polaroid!

[william_littman]

Mr Pryor, Polaroid 110/120 tilt je ne sais quoi<div></div>

[kamm]

??Je ne sais quoi?? You should know what...you 'invented' it.

 

But seriously, not bad...how many degrees of tilt does it have...I recall from previous forums people had trouble finding info apart from very basic specs on your website...I also have had the same trouble. Does it shift also...that would be very useful.