Platform bashing

[peter nelson]

Just to give you an idea of how much anti-Microsoft ca-ca is being tossed around here let me add a data point:<P>

 

I'm a software engineer for a company that makes medical equipment. It's a big, well-known company whose equipment you've probably seen or been connected to if you've ever been in an ICU or CCU. <U><B>People's lives depend on this gear working reliably</B></U> And guess what: It's running a MSFT OS.

[carl smith]

Just because I'm on break during my research project, I'll say this to you Huey. You should really not be making assumptions. My major may not be electrical engineering, or computer engineering, but I'm also not a straight photo major either. I am an engineer and using computers comprises 75% of the work I have to do, from programming to digital creation/work.

 

In fact my friend whom I share my apartment with is a CE major and he's incredibly amused by what you've been saying. I'm not saying this to be mean, but you need to cut your "experienced" attitude. We all see different things in our experiences with computers, which is why it's dangerous to make the generalizations you're making. It happens a lot on the web and it does nothing but confuse people. Obviously you're understand the technology to some degree, but there are a lot of people who will even draw these conclusions who have no understanding whatsoever.

[hugh stevens]

Peter

 

How large is this OS you are running on ICU/CCU equipment? Does it comprise as much code as say WIN XP, decision points, and all, etc.

 

Military equipment, imparticularly Flight Control Systems require a figuratively "bullet-proof" OS, and often have in the case of fly by wire systems redundance. The OS of "bullet-proof"/High Reliability Computing Systems is quite small compared to the likes of your standard post 2000 PC/MAC OS. In fact these HRCS often have the OS stripped down to the minimum needed to perform the calculating engine, and display portions.

 

Now unless you reply email and state that it is say 125 MB or so in size, then I would put forth that the OS inside of your equipment, whether disk stored or EEPROM/PROM is quite small in comparison.

 

What I'm asking is this, how large is the OS on these CCU/ICU devices. Can you then take that OS and use it to boot a networked PC at say someones office or home?

 

If you can, please respond and indicate what functionality we would get out of this OS at home or the office?

 

I closing this reply, I would like to say thanks for working on systems that save lives each and everyday. Although I haven't as of yet been in ICU/CCU situation, and I'm sure there are some in this forum that wouldn't mind seeing me there, I have had people I know that have needed ICU/CCU care, and the equipment is quite complex and operates extremely well.

 

Carl - The IT guys here are enjoying this foray more than I am, beleive me on that one. I don't know what your CE student there is entertained by, but the IT guys here are asking me to let them jump on the PC on this end and permit them to send text your way. I will not allow this as it is my name at the bottom of the reply. Just as much as your CE student there is entertained by my replies, the IT guys here are just as amuzed since they are the ones who constantly struggle with our PC's since the WIN XP upgrade. Not that they didn't have problems with our PC's prior to WIN XP in which case we ran WIN NT 4.0. They didn't like that too much as well.

 

I figure we will just have to agree to disagree. I don't care to repeat myself. It has all been said in the previous posts. Hey Bob - liking this flame?

[carl smith]

You <i>are</i> talking about IT guys. Tell me you know about them. :)

<br><br>

And you do realize you're bring IT in to an imaging realm, totally different applications.

[will_perlis]

Anyone have any data on up-time for comparable work environments? I kinda hate to mention linking all these fascinating emotions to any aspect of reality, but some *facts* would be nice.

[peter nelson]

<I>How large is this OS you are running on ICU/CCU equipment? </I><P>

 

We have several products and they run on stock Microsoft OSes such as Win2K loaded on the disk just like on any PC. That's why I laugh when I hear people say how unreliable Microsoft OSes are.<P>

 

Speaking as a software engineer who programs applications that run on these things, most reliability problems on PC's are introduced by third-party software - especially via device drivers. But our stuff is embedded in the clinical device so the customer can't change their configuration and we strictly control (and fanatically test) what hardware and drivers it ships with. The result is 24/7 reliability.

[hugh stevens]

Peter

 

I knew for a fact that your corporation, whichever Medical device company it is, thoroughly tested the WIN2K OS prior to full blown production. This IS how it should be, instead of using the populace at large as the beta test site. Is the OS stripped down? For those of us that might be following this thread but aren't as knowledgeable as most, when you boot your PC using the MSFT OS used for our medical monitoring machinery, what functionality would exist on the PC?

 

Peter I, and certainly the IT guys (Yes, I know those types Carl) have problems even with the WIN drivers, so it isn't limited to just third party drivers.

 

Where Carl and I agree is the security issues introduced by WINTEL, et all. This time the flub is Windows Server itself, can't be blamed on any third party driver. The link below will bring you to the Yahoo story on the issue.

 

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030717/ap_on_hi_te/microsoft_flaw_5

 

There is something I'd like to touch on regarding the pending JAVA SUN OS lawsuit. MS wants to keep JAVA out of it's code as evidenced by the adamant manner in which it keeps hopping from court to court to prevent it from happening. Now I can't vouch for peoples experiences using WIN XP, but it sure seems to slow down the PC's as compared to NT 4.0 here at our site in the greater Dallas/FT. Worth area. I suspect adding JAVA to WIN XP, or any subsequent Java addition into WIN OS would further slow it down to the point of unacceptability, just as you wouldn't want to wait 10 seconds for dialtone when you go off hook with your phone.

 

JAVA however when it creates it's environment is more secure than WIN OS. It has at it's core OS measures to make it difficult to hack, certainly more than WIN OS.

 

This is for sure, and I'll take it by the numbers.

 

1. WIN OS is massively unsecure, that given:

2. We have been LIED TOO by Bill Gates, et al.

3. What makes you think they are ever going to tell the truth about anything so long as they can hide behind plausible deniabiity.

 

It seems to me they won't stop hammering George W. Bush and Tony Blair on plausible deny-ability issues and they are going to have to pay in one way or another, or at least come clean and vindicate themselves. Yet Bill gates can spew and foment any thing he wants, and most of you can't, or won't lock in on this simple fact. He is a LIAR, plain and simple. Now if you or I started to behave in a market place in similar fashion, the governement wouldn't waste any time decimating you or me, or anybody for that matter that has behaves in the market place in similar fashion. If your girlfriend/wife LIED to you about infidelity and then was shamelessly busted, would you have anything to do with him/her? And yet you continue not only to use but actively advocate WIN OS?

 

Frontline on PBS recently showed how EASILY the Taliban/Al Queda are actively hacking our infrastructure, i.e. electricity, water supply, traffic, etc; and are capable of bringing whole electrical grids DOWN since it is simply SCADA systems running the majority of switching stations. Hasn't anyone out there tied the fact together that it is most likely the controller using a WIN OS with quite sensitive information being hacked that enables really anybody to then manipulate these systems. They can not only bring down the grid, but the energy pumped into these systems MUST be dissipated, certainly an engineer such as yourself Carl knows that, and if dissipated; either the generator has to be shut-down, incurring massive restart costs, or the thing blows electrically. Although the latter scenario is highly unlikely given sophisticated control systems, but is possible. Remember a program called SECRET SERVICE that lasted 1/2 season on NBC? They had just a scenario in Penssylvania in which someone introduced a logic bomb into the electrical control systems and ALMOST blew the whole grid and power plant! Where would you be Carl without electricity to run your research project?

 

How would you like for your PERSONAL info to be hacked off of your PC, with WIN OS it is quite posssible this can and will happen, then you've got identity theft.

 

This is a moral imperative and you all just can't lock in on that. Since the government is unwilling to lift a finger to ensure electronic security, yet passes whole laws to protect our medical records (HIPPA) and Personal Info (Personal Info act of 1974) why doesn't the government take up electronic software security in a similar manner? I'm sure planty of hacker would just love to point out to the government how unsecure WIN OS is.

[carl smith]

And they do. The government will likely eventually get on the case, but as of right now, GOK. I keep up on my firewall and monitor access to our network in the apartment, not just for the Windows machines but our Unix too. It's just a good idea and fortunately for me its not a lot of work. I'm not a hacker, so I can't stop everything but the likelyhood of my systems being hacked isn't that great.

<br><br>

Win OS is stable, if you talk Win 2k or XP Pro, but it's the crap we put on it. In fact I'm impressed with all the (4 letter word) I have on my laptop that Win 2k doesn't choke sometimes. The problem is it's <i>so</i> widespread as an operating system that there is so much crap made to run on it. And a lot of that never gets tested. Security issues exist in other platforms as well, and I honestly haven't decided yet whether the number of concerns for windows are totally just MS being moronic or if the majority of it is due to the fact that their OS is constantly under scrutiny. I lean towards the latter but honestly at my level it's not an issue. Being concerned about someone hacking a back door through some unbuffered check, or getting in to my media library through media player don't really exist for me. When I run a data server on a secure network, which thankfully I never will, I'll be concerned and may indeed run Unix. Unix is also a hell of a lot cheaper (like free in many cases) and requires fewer resources for some of the basic operations required for those things.

<br><br>

Microsoft has certainly improved the quality of their professional operating systems, and their server stuff is constantly evolving and changing, but since that's outside of my expertise (never run any major servers) I'm not going to comment on it. Either way MSFT OS software has its place, after all the other bumbles and success stories. I remember when everyone I knew with ME had auto update download this one update that crashed everyones' systems. Most of them then went to Win2k. Major blunders happen but i can't complain about Win 2k and XP pros track record on our systems. Uptime is in months easily and I feel that MS reached a level of maturity where things just work when 2k came out. Mac followed suit with OS X (regardless of the bad support).