X-pan vs 4x5

[darin_cozine]

So the X-pan gives a panoramic negative with allmost a 3:1 aspect

ratio. (24mm x 65mm) The lens usually supplied for it is a 45mm focal

length. This is close to 'normal' in 35mm terms except for its wider

coverage. This certainly takes some of the allure out of the X-pan

for me.

 

My 4x5, outfitted with a 90mm lens, can take photos with the same

angle of view horiontally. Add in the full frame of a 4x5 sheet and

the movements of a view camera, and I can produce much better quality

work.

 

Is my thinking correct?? Sure the Xpan wins in portability. The Xpan

also has TTL metering, which in my opinion would cause problems with

such a wide format.

 

-If anyone has used both I would sure like to hear their opinions.

[harshan]

Unfair comparison.

But since you have already noted the pros and cons of both these systems there isnt much one can add.

 

I wouldnt agree that bigger equates to better quality. Though if you had to enlarge to a size that is out-of-bounds for the 35mm than of course the xpan is beaten.

I use the TX-1 which is the same as the xpan annd have found the quality stunning.

Having said that the joy of looking at the the 4x5 Slide made using a Schneider 90/5.6 lens is in a class of its own..

Portability- Xpan wins hands down..TTL- no problems..at least with what i have seen so far!!..

I also use a 6x17 system, only when ocassions arise where i have to get that extra large print do i use it or else the TX-1 is sufficient.

 

Yes, the ideal situation- Xpan with shifts (perspective control)wow!!

Xpan-III ?? :-)

[chris_henry1]

The XPan is scarcely larger than a Leica and has automatic film handling,

switchable from 24x36 to 24x66 mid-roll, TTL metering, rangefinder focusing

and is reasonably rugged. It couldn't be any more different to a 4x5 with the

exception that you might crop a similar-sized negative from the sheet to give a

panoramic aspect ratio. Why is TTL metering a problem more than handheld

metering? Bring a spotmeter if you are worried about exposure. A fairer

comparison is the Mamiya 7-II with the panoramic 35mm insert.

[lars ake vinberg]

Smaller format means not as high image quality. But it also means more (apparent) depth of field, which translates to wider apertures and shorter shutter times. So a rangefinder is suitable for catching the moment in a way that a view camera will never be. Also, with rollfilm exposure bracketing becomes more affordable. In some ways, the Xpan is an ideal travel camera.

 

I think the 45mm Xpan lens has a slightly wider horizontal view than your 90 on 4x5, you have to go to 80 mm to match it. The 45 is a very good lens.

 

The Xpan TTL does have some problems, but not because of the wide format. The meter is center-weighted, and like all center-weighted meters it is not good at handling high-contrast scenes such as overcast, where it underexposes. And with a rangefinder it is more difficult to use a graduated filter.

 

If you need the image quality of 4x5 for panoramics then Xpan is of course not an option. In that case a 6x12 rollfilm back might be a good suggestion.<div></div>

[david_tolcher]

Darin, I have both - just bought an Xpan2 with 45 and 90mm lenses. Initial impressions are that the lenses are as good as leitz, particularly the 45 and so quality from the cropped '6x7'format is very nice. Think of it as 6x7 and you can gauge how big it will blow up in panoramic mode.<p>I found I was taking more and more panoramic type shots with 5X4, didnt want a 6X12 back particularly (nearly as big as an xpan), also needed a slight tele (the 90 is circa 270 on 5X4) and my 5X4 wont do above about 180. Needed a portable camera for travelling where taking the 5X4 would be a pain so bought an xpan.<p> Comments about the metering are correct - need to think of it as an aid rather than a ttl p&s answer.<p>Your point about the allure of the 45mm lens is actually an asset in my eyes. You get the coverage of a 24mm lens on the horizontal with the vertical of a 45mm lens - really excellent for panoramic landscapes. <p>Conclusion so far - a valuable asset which I will use in different circumstances to 5X4, if you have a 6X12 or 6X17 back and have it and your 5X4 with you all the time then the xpan wont add to your photography. If cost is no obstacle then shooting 5X4 and cropping is also easy.<p>Sorry for the ramble, Dave

[john_bailey1]

Dear Darin

 

I shoot an Xpan with the 45, a Fuji 617 and also 4x5. They are all wonderful to use and I use them for different reasons. I always carry my Xpan in the back of my car for grab shots and when I want to attack a subject with lots of film. Recently, I have shot ore boats on the Calumet River in Chicago and a couple weeks ago did many of the tall ships which were in the Chicago River. Had I used my 617 for the tall ships, I would have been spending lots of time putting in new rolls of film-and not all the film choices. The 4x5 would have been great for the ore boat since it was tied up to a pier and I did not have much latitude in moving my position.

 

The Xpan is handy, easy to put in a pocket and carry in a bag along with any other cameras I have along. The 617 is certainly bulkier to haul around and does attract more attention. I was a bit disappointed with convergence with the tall ships shot against the downtown Chicago buildings, but that same issue would have occured with the 617.

 

I must admit here again that my favorite camera is the 617. In looking back at all my work, I am always pleased and amazed how many shots are in the 617 format. Guess I have learned to 'see' in the panoramic format. As you know, the 617 is really a 5x7 equivalent size. My disappointment is the view finder and camera coverage are not the same, but I have learned to compensate over the years. Also, I have all too often left the lens cap on the 617. By the same token, I shoot it on a tripod, hand held, propped against a rock or building, in vertical position and leaning over the edges of cliffs and buildings. If you have not shot a Fuji 617, go rent or borrow one and give it a try.

 

I have been looking at the 90mm lens and may take that plunge for my Xpan. Are you enjoying using it?

 

One other thing, there is a company who sells 4x5 and 8x10 dark slides so you can shoot 'panoramic' on your normal view camera and get two images on each sheet. Sounds neat, although I have not tried it. Obviously many more lens choices with 4x5.

 

Regards,

 

John Bailey

[john tonai]

I have been using the X-Pan with all three lenses for almost two years. For the past 15

years I've also used a 4x5 and 8x10 camera with a half darkslide to take panoramics.

In addition, 14 years of working in camera stores in LA afforded me the opportunity

to try out any camera and lens I wanted to test.

 

>>So the X-pan gives a panoramic negative with allmost a 3:1 aspect ratio. (24mm x

65mm) The lens usually supplied for it is a 45mm focal length. This is close to

'normal' in 35mm terms except for its wider coverage. This certainly takes some of

the allure out of the X-pan for me

 

Why does this take out the allure of the X-Pan? Your 90mm lens with the same aspect

ratio will be slightly longer than 'normal'-not that much different than the X-Pan. Is

the problem that you want a different look than you are already getting? Or do you

want a wider look? I would guess that about 1/2 of my images are shot with the

30mm, 1/4 with the 45mm, 1/8 with the 90mm and 1/8 with a pinhole.

 

>>Add in the full frame of a 4x5 sheet and the movements of a view camera, and I

can produce much better quality work. Is my thinking correct??

 

I'm not really sure what you mean by "I can produce much better quality work". In my

book, the better quality work is better quality imagery not technical superiority. (I

don't mean to offend anyone who considers getting the highest resolution, sharpest

image and finest grain photos as the ultimate goal-you are doing photography to do

what makes you happy-whatever fulfills a need.)

 

If you want a full frame 4x5 you should use a 4x5 camera. If you need movements,

you need to use a camera that has movements. If you want a very portable panoramic

camera use a camera that fits that need.

 

Here's a real life example of what I mean. A few years back another photographer and

I went to Utah on a photo trip. I took my 8x10 and he took a Fuji 617 with a specially

made GG back. To make sure of his composition he used the GG back to compose

and focus. Because of this he obviously used a tripod. He got the camera because he

wanted a big neg but he wanted it to be more portable than my view camera. While

his camera was smaller and lighter than mine, the camera operation was actually

slower and he couldn't use movements to get some shots (in fact a lot of shots) that

he wanted and was mostly frustrated with it. However, when he shot it hand-held, he

looked for different subjects and modified his methods and really enjoyed the images

he got from the camera.

 

Have you done panoramics with your view camera? If not, you should because a good

panoramic is a completely different beast than a normal aspect ratio image. I strongly

suggest buying a spare darkslide, cutting it slightly less than 1/2 (This gives you a

rebate edge between the two images) You need to make sure that you don't cut the

area that goes into the light trap-if you cut this area, you will get light leaks. To mark

your GG, put a film holder (empty) in the camera, put the 1/2 slide in the film holder

FACING the GG. you can then see the outline of its coverage. If you find it difficult to

see, put a piece of white paper in the film holder. Use a extra fine point sharpee to

either outline the area or indicate the corners.

 

You will need to make sure that when you use the 1/2 slide, you will need to develop

a system to indicate which 1/2 of the film you shot, but with a little practice this

becomes rote.

 

If you have been shooting panoramics, then you need to think about why you would

be possessed enough to buy this camera. It is expensive. Some people think it is

overpriced. I think any camera-even a Holga-is overpriced if it doesn't allow you to

get the photos you want. (Or if you don't think your photos are worth anything.) I

think my X-Pan purchase was a great value.

 

By the way the TTL metering is fine. Because of the wide field, the centerweighting

can be fooled in certain situations. Testing and recognizing these situations has

eliminated any exposure issues. Also, even if you shoot in automatic, you can use

exposure lock in many shots. You can also use the autobracketing, but I shoot

enough film without wasting exposures on duplicate images.

[sk_arts]

Wow. This comparison is so wild, i don't even know where to start.

 

In fact I don't think I will.

[darin_cozine]

Thank you everyone for sharing your experiences. This thread has been very informative for me. I am learning to use a 4x5 camera, but I recently had a chance to try out an X-pan. I really liked the format of the X-pan, and I have allways been intrigued by panoramas. I was very impressed with the Peter Lik gallery in San Fancisco.

 

Unfortunately I do not have a flair for sweeping landscapes, and I have been disappointed by the quality of images produced from my 90mm F8 Super Angulon.

 

Ive been trying to figure out why panoramas are so sexy. I think part of the mistique for me is that I see the prints and I attribute them to ultra-wide angle lenses. But you dont have to have an ultra-wide lens to create a good panaorama, because its all about the aspect ratio. For the X-pan, the standard 45mm lens is just slightly wider than normal vertically. It just has more horizontal coverage. The X-pan website did not mention the 30mm lens. The other lens available is a 90mm.. and that isnt wide at all.

 

Comparing the X-pan to a 4x5 is a silly comparison. But I think this thread did a good job of pointing out the strengths and weaknesses of the different systems for panorama. And one point was made clear: Use the right tool for the job.

 

Now I will have to get a half-darkslide for my sheet film holders and experiment with some lenses with better edge-to-edge sharpness.

Thanks!

[tedharris]

Just a short note as this subject can get very confusing but there is a real difference in

terms of angle of view between 'wide format' cameras such as the XPan, GX617, etc.

and true panoramic cameras such as the Noblex, Roundshot, Cirkut, etc. IMHO there

are some real advantages to the 120/220 true panoramic cameras but, other than

convenience I see no real advantage to the 'wide format' cameras. OTOH convenience

is a large plus in some instances.

 

The basic point here is that, if you are contemplating panoramic photograpy, do

some studying and searching and look at the difference and different options.