Making/Losing money in fine art sales

bill_proud · July 8, 2003

I've recently been asked by two venues about participating in a wine

tasting/art gallery exhibition. After thinking over the details I'm

leaning toward declining these offers but first would like to know if

anyone on photo.net has some insight I'm missing.

The first venue is The Mesa Verde Park Association, which promotes

the park and surrounding economic entities. The wine tasting would be

at the park and then the gallery work would be at private studios in

the surrounding area. I've avoided having money tied up in inventory,

preferring magazine sales as cleaner and neater so my estimated

expense in pulling this together is $2000-3000.00.

I've asked about their advertising, which seems nebulous so far, and

how they plan on getting people there who both, have the money to

spend, and will spend it. The local area is of lower economic status

so outside sources are needed and I'm not sure the organizers have

the vision to bring these kinds of people in.

I guess the biggest concern is spending lots of money on new prints

and framing for someone else's entertainment and they don't buy

anything. Of course this brings up the thought that maybe my work

doesn't command the money I want to ask or it isn't good enough and

maybe it isn't. But I'm not seeing others doing well either.

Bill Hatcher, NGS photographer, had a show in Durango the last three

weeks at The Open Shutter Gallery and has sold one $700.00 framed,

Ilfochrome piece.

What I am considering is asking for an admission charge, which would

be applied to any purchase. That way one would be assured of making

some money.

Your thoughts please? All comments welcome.

michelle_cox · July 8, 2003

I've never tried to sell my work, so I'm looking at this from more of a consumer end. Personally, I wouldn't pay much, if anything, to see photos of someone I didn't know or wasn't already a fan of. There's plenty of photos all over the place that I can look at for free. And if you're wanting to recoup $3k, that's either a lot of visitors or a high charge to each.

If you already had the inventory, you'd only be out your time. But for that kind of investment to get the inventory, it doesn't sound like a very safe bet to me.

brad_crane · July 8, 2003

I should preface my comments by saying I have not attempted to sell any of my photos. So perhaps my advice should be taken with a grain of salt...

Do you think you will have subsequent opportunities to sell your prints? Maybe this is just a chance to build an inventory -- even if you sell little or nothing at this first show, you will have the inventory (and added motivation!) for future shows. It seems to me that if you want to get in the business of selling prints, sooner or later you will have to pay the start-up costs. In this context, all you have to lose at your first show is the time you spend there.

The worst case scenario is that you never sell a single print. Maybe then you have pre-purchased birthday/holiday gifts for friends and family for years to come? <grin>

Good luck!

david_henderson · July 8, 2003

Bill. I'm sure you're right to be concerned about whether you'd

recoup your money here, and of course the sums you mention

won't, I'd guess, include anything for your time or

transport/subsistence/photographic costs either in attending this

event or in making the images to start with. The essential issue

is that you're trying to recoup the entire cost of printing, framing

etc against this one event because you're not convinced you'll

have a ready market for the goods afterwards.

If there is a sort of photographer that should be participating in

this sort of "opportunity" then I guess it should be someone who

believes they have an ongoing market for this type of sale and

therefore notionally has only to cost in the "cost of goods sold"

rather than the "cost of goods made". Or someone whose just

flattered and prepared to pay for the kudos.

My inclination would be to try one thing- more in hope than

expectation -before you quit on it. The number and nature of

people seeing your work will clearly be in the hands of the

organisers. Why can't they see this as a joint venture- with them

putting up half the costs and taking half the profits? I expect that

they'd reject this but then you'd know that they also wouldn't

expect the photography venture to succeed financially. What they

really want, I suspect is something to make their event look good

and which doesn't cost them anything. And well, if the

photographer loses a bit of money, well he's still got his stock

and he's had all this exposure, so he shouldn't grumble. As a

business venture,this sort of thing is a bit too close to vanity

publishing for my liking, and a recipe for a full garage and an

empty bank account.

david_bradley1 · July 8, 2003

I guess the biggest concern is spending lots of money on new prints and framing for someone else's entertainment and they don't buy anything.

</BLOCKQUOTE>

Welcome to the world of retail! The ratio of browsers to buyers is always very high. That's the way it is.

It seems to me that you are asking yourself the wrong question. The first question is, "Do I want to sell my images as fine art prints through galleries?" If the answer is yes, then a) accept that you will have to have some inventory, and b) ask yourself, "Is this a good gallery situation in which to show/sell my prints?"

Also remember that there are intangible benefits to being in a show even if you don't make any immediate sales. The first is that you get the experience of preparing for a show, which is never as cut and dried as one thinks. (There are numerous challenges such as finding a wholesaler for framing supplies, figuring out what your standard print sizes will be and what you will charge for them, what kind of framing and mat styles you will standardize on, etc.) Second, there is the benefit if getting your work "out there" and getting feedback from an unbiased viewing audience. Third, there is the opportunity to start generating some "buzz" about your work. If you become active in the gallery circuit, then some people may start buying your work only after the 3rd or 4th time they recognize your name. They'll say, "Oh, isn't this the guy who we saw here and there? Hmm, he must be good. Maybe we should think of buying one for the livingroom/bedroom/billard room/board room."

The only certainty is that you won't sell if you don't show.

Also bear in mind that we are in the middle of a tough economy. Over the last month I've talked to over 20 gallery owners in the Puget Sound area, and all have reported sales in the doldrums. It's not that fine art prints is a bad place to be, but that almost everything is a bad place to be right now. Don't be disappointed if you don't make many sales of fine art prints in Q3 2003 -- expect it, and view it as a learning/buzz-generating experience...laying a foundation for future successes when the economy rebounds.

guytal · July 8, 2003

I'll throw in my 2c from the perspective of someone who does (or at least tries to :) sell fine art prints.

Form my experience exhibits do not cover the costs of production, but are valuable in a number of other ways. First - many people do not realize what a fine art print looks like and how different it is from something they see in a magazine, book or web site. This is especially true for prints from large and medium format - you can tell from people's reaction they never imagined the detail and color fidelity possible in a good print. So there's your first value - raising awareness.

Second is reputation and word of mouth - even if you don't sell on the spot - people keep your information (make sure to have business cards available if you decide to go ahead with it) and forward it to others. It's not rare for a number of sales to happen over the phone even weeks after an exhibit from people who saw your images and took time to think it over or ones that heard from friends about your work.

Publicity is hard to measure in dolalrs and cents. Also - you never know when a magazine editor or corporate buyer might be in the neighborhood and decide to visit your display :)

Bottom line is it's hard to quantify if, when and how you'll recoup your expenses. If you're relying on on-the-spot sales, I say chances are slim, but there are other benefits to be gained if you can afford the time and initial investment (also keep in mind that next time you'll already have some inventory).

Guy

<a href="http://scenicwild.com">Scenic Wild</a>

guytal · July 8, 2003

One more thing - unless you're presenting in a gallery (as in having your images hanging on walls), I would not bother with framing.

Framing can make or break an image and a lot of times what appeals to one may not appeal to another. If you can display your images matted and leave the framing up to the customer you will cut on costs and be able to offer a more attractive package.

If you are going to offer framed prints, I would go with a simple thin gallery frame to allow for easy reframing.

Guy

<a href="http://scenicwild.com">Scenic Wild</a>

david_bradley1 · July 8, 2003

One more thing - unless you're presenting in a gallery (as in having your images hanging on walls), I would not bother with framing.

Framing can make or break an image and a lot of times what appeals to one may not appeal to another. If you can display your images matted and leave the framing up to the customer you will cut on costs and be able to offer a more attractive package.

</BLOCKQUOTE>

This is an interesting point! I recently attended an exhibit at the

<A HREF="http://www.benhamgallery.com" TARGET="_new">Benham Gallery</A> featuring some large 50" x 50" prints by Simon Norfolk. The images were printed with wide borders and were simply thumbtacked to the wall with pushpins. I was surprised, but the Benham Gallery has been in business for over 15 years and is a viable enterprise, so I assumed they knew what they were doing. Oh, and the prices for most of the prints were $2000 and up..with pushpins.

p._neil_ralley · July 8, 2003

Bill, another fallback option would be to persuade the organisers to split the exhibition between several photographers which would reduce the participation costs per exhibitor. I agree with other posters that the market is not good at this time and if you think that you might be throwing money away by exhibiting you are probably right. IMO the thing which probably would not work is the admission charge. Just my 2C.

bill_proud · July 8, 2003

Hey, thanks all,

First a little more clarification from my end. I've sold a number of prints in previous years at the Telluride Gallery so I'm not quite a novice. Unfortunately they only want Telluride related material and I want them to take a broader range of material.

David Bradley, thanks, you made a good point as to, is this a good situation? I talked to the organizer this morning at her office and there are thirty artists at this point, but no photographers. So my conclusion is good from a photographic competition standpoint and bad from an overall competition. I do already have some inventory of large prints but none in the 24-40" size.

Neil, I also talked to her about a revenue split but she said all the revenue would go to the sponsors and repay of costs. This being the first year the organizers were still feeling their way around.

Same with the admission charge.

Guy, great points about the impressive quality of large and medium format prints. I need to go back and read your post again, it seems there was more I wanted to comment about but I'm afraid if I back up, I'll lose what I've written.

Oh, yeah, I like the idea of pushpins and matted only. I have kept things simple when I frame, double white mats and dark frame but matting only is even better. That might cut the cost to $1000.

bill_proud · July 8, 2003

Hey,

A couple of comments I missed,

Michelle, I'm not necessarily wanting to recoup all my costs from the show but more on the line of increasing the number of pieces sold, kind of a sales attack method.

David Henderson, Yes, I'm beyond flattery, I'm published a couple hundred times and the magazines are much easier, so I do believe I could develop an on-going market in this area.

Someone made a point looking at the publicity gained from doing the show and that goes on the plus side.

Guy, you said this is what you do, or "at least try to do." Do you have any more insight on that comment? Do certain sizes sell better than others? I know that photographic fine art is a tough sell for all of us, I'm just trying to improve my chances.

Thanks to all.

guytal · July 8, 2003

Bill, I don't do it for a living. I make and sell fine art prints as a somewhat serious hobby. I definitely have a lot more invested in it than I plan to make back in sales so take my advice with a grain of salt - I would not survive as a business if that was my sole occupation.

As for print size - I think it really depends on the venue. For example - my first exhibit was in a relatively dark cafe' where most customers came in the evening hours. My prints were 10x14 matted and framed in 16x20 gallery frames, and 12x16 prints in 20x24 frames. The only sales I made were the larger sizes (priced $50 higher) - people could not get a good impression of the smaller prints in such an environment. Alternatively in a small booth at a park fair in bright daylight smaller sizes sell better - customers can get up close to the prints and get a better look, and also don't expect to buy expensive items. In a fine art gallery with tall walls and good lighting I would probably go with fewer images, sized 16x20 or larger.

Guy

<a href="http://scenicwild.com">Scenic Wild</a>

george_rhodes · July 8, 2003

I make a full-time living selling my fine art photographic prints. I am successful and absolutely love what I do for a living. It was a long, hard road to my success, but it has all been very interesting and I've enjoyed the entire journey. For me, this was a passion that I knew I had to accomplish. I was driven to succeed. I never doubted that I would succed, at least to some extent. There was never a question as to whether or not I should spend the time and money to put together my first show. I knew I wanted to sell my work, so I just went ahead and did it. Of course, in the beginning, I had a regular job and was able to scrape together the money to print and frame some work. You have to start somewhere. If you know you want to do this, at least as a side thing, or even as a hobby, then you'll have other shows in which to exhibit or offer for sale any work that doesn't sell at your first show. I say, "Go for it". Really, what have you got to loose? If nothing else, it's fun to see the reaction of others to your work. Good luck.

phyrpowr · July 9, 2003

Bill,

just a few comments from the "buyer" side, as I've never sold to the public myself.

Will the venue let you have for sale smaller versions of the prints on the walls, say, 8x10s or even greeting cards? When I go to showings or sidewalk shows, I really can't afford larger prints (spent all my $$$ on my own photo gear), but I often end up getting some cards or 5x7s. This could defray some of your expenses, and if you do go into retail sales, or sales to shops, you'd need to stock those sizes anyway. Lots of tourists like a "professional" photo of where they've been, but it has to be packed in the luggage.

j._scott_schrader · July 9, 2003

Bill,

The chances of you recouping your costs in one show are slim

to none. Showing your work and profitting from it is really a

numbers game. It is the total at years-end that is important...not

just one show. If you have a few other opportunities to show your

work in the not too distant future you might be able to cover your

expenses but I certainly wouldn't suggest to you that it will

happen or even come close to happening at one show.

Yes, sometimes people get lucky and profit from a first

showing...it is rare! Based on your description, this does not

seem like a sound opportunity. The fact that the gallery is not

located in a well-to-do area, and the lack of ability on thier part to

tell you specifically about what type of advertising they will be

doing does not bode well for this show.

If I may be so bold as to give you some advise from one who has

been there...I would advise against it unless you have some

future shows already lined up in more upscale locations for

which you will be needing the inventory.

For what it is worth I do make a living from my photography (75%

sales of my nature work ...25% commercial (product mostly) and

teaching situations.)

mike hardeman · July 9, 2003

I agree about not tying up inventory bucks for just one show. This is a mistake I have made not once, but three times, now. Most of my credit card debt is from getting a wild hair and trying to do a show. The last time was in the spring of 2001, when the local area was hit with some pretty substantial layoffs. I had invested about $4000 in that one show, and I'm still paying for it. What is frustrating is that I KNOW that other photographers are out there making money at it, but I'm not willing to take off from my day job for the time it would take to do several shows (my estimates have been that it probably takes about 5 or 6 in a year to make a profit). I also have a pride issue in standing there like I'm some sort of street merchant, waiting for someone to come along and "accept" my work to the point that they'll pay for it. It can be somewhat humiliating when you put thousands of dollars into a show and end up grossing about 400 bucks. I offered my calendars at $9 (they retail for $11) and still remember some guy bitching about the $9! I still have most of that inventory hanging around, and a lot of other photographers at that show gave me some good information about how to do it profitably, but I've become VERY gun-shy about doing it again any time soon.

Would love to get my stuff back in galleries again, but I'm waiting to win the Lottery to finance the first run of prints... :)

http://www.michaelhardeman.com

bill_proud · July 9, 2003

Michael,

Thanks, and I visited your web site, very nice photography.

Yeah, I think I'm going to pass on both of the offers. The second show was at Fort Lewis College in Durango. They had asked me to apply for a show in the fall displaying my southwest ruins photography, of which I have a few. The deal killer for me on that one was they said I couldn't actually sell anything at the exhibition, only take names.

With every thing I've heard and what the organizers tell me, it just seems too iffy.

Thanks to everyone who responded.

chuckk · July 9, 2003

You state the demographics of the area the event will be held are poor. However, there seem to be galleries in the locality in which you will be able to display your work. To me galleries signal either this is cultural destination or a reasonably cultured local population.

Is the gallery on the same block as the wine festival? If it's around the corner and down three blocks then it's a bust.

BTW, I've never sold a print so my advice is from based solely on festival experience as a consumer and experiences of others I've read. Wine festivals generally will provide a better target audience than any food or music festival.

Good luck whatever you decide.

rob de la selva · July 10, 2003

My belated 2 cents worth, based on one exhibition.

A money-losing venture, but one of my most favorite experiences, and worth every penny of the credit card debt!

I'm back in the field now collecting some shots for the next exhibition, and looking forward to it too :)

greg s · July 10, 2003

Bill,

There's a lot of good info here... just thought I'd add a possibility, if it has any potential use. One way to display a range of work in an attractive and economical way is through cards. If a person had a modest number of large prints displayed, yet wanted to exhibit more work... cards are an inexpensice option.

We buy cards which wrap around 4x6 prints and frame the photo very nicely. It costs us about $1.50 per finished card. (These do make nice gifts for friends and relatives on over inventory situations :) This allows someone to buy the photo for a few bucks and potentially order larger prints later (name/address on back, cheap advertising).

Cheers, Greg

de_isaacs · July 11, 2003

I just started down this road (to rags or riches is unclear as of yet). I also shared the concern of spending lots of money on prints and framing for someone else's entertainment and no income (if they don't buy anything!)

I took the path of attempting to provide a service (in my case I 'place' flower/wildflower photos in a restaurant or cafe/coffee-house and then (as interest dictates) the customer can order framed/matted photo's. The restaurant gets a percentage and I get not only the sale, but even without the sale I get lots of exposure. I am even planning to arrange local newspaper coverage of the "showing" to benefit both the restaurant as well as me!

I carry a small amount of inventory (mostly 4*6 and 5*7 sample book sets) with larger editions in my home/office/and placed publicly.

I have found that sometimes giving away a print "sets the hook" with a client and encourages further interest.

I have experienced firsthand the intangible benefits to being in a show even without any immediate sales (experience of the show,etc.) standardize on, etc., the benefit of getting my work "out there" and getting feedback from the audience, Third, the opportunity to generate some "buzz" about my work)

I agree that you won't sell if you don't show!

Good luck !

Derek

bill_proud · July 11, 2003

Gregg, Derek,

Thanks for the responses. I am making money from magazine and gallery sales so there is some income for my photography. The exhibition route just seems so muddy because you don't know who's coming or what they may like.

mike hardeman · July 13, 2003

Bill,

Thanks for looking at my site and for the compliment. I have to say that the first time you display your work for the public, it is nice to get the nice words, but I think that wears off after a a few days. I think showing on the gallery circuit with a steady income from prints means a lot more to me than just picking up a buck or two at an "art" show, when overhear a middle-aged woman say to her friend "Well, it's just photography", and then make a beeline to the booth selling ceramic dogs. :)

hank_pennington · July 13, 2003

Bill-

I very much like the connection with the galleries. Folks at a tasting aren't

likely to slap cash at the moment, but if they can return to your work in a

gallery after the fact, then I think the combinations of showings has a good

chance of improving your sales. It also should help with your gallery

placements for future images. Yeah, it's a risk of dinero, but in this setting I

wouldn't hesitate. If you are lucky, a gallery might be willing to share the risk a

little and offer a deal on the framing- that is of course, if they also are a frame

shop.

If you can afford to tie up the money in inventory and the galleries will

continue to show your work through an extended "tourist" season, it looks like

a winner to me.

Hank

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