Learning

[ben conover]

Hello,

 

Let me start by saying that I hope ths thread will not be deleted, since it

took me time to think about this and write it. Please have some consideration.

 

Thanks.

 

 

I think people would like to futher their knowledge, even if that involves

spending mucho $$$. Let's face the sad fact that photography is an expensive

hobby, for some.

 

This idea would not segrgate the non-subscribers, just give them something to

aim for. I know that a good teacher can be invaluable, but they are expensive.

I think photo.net could introduce an all in one photography masterclass forum,

with a subscription fee of say $200 for a year? It could access all elements

of the already existing forums and criteria, however it might provide a clear

one to one service with perhaps the incentive of featured work, etc. New front

page of photo.net might include a link to: "Pro-Masterclass forum results week

1."

 

That way people HERE could see what they were up to but not participate...the

incentive being to lure them into buying a subscription to gain access and

participation. Of course, it'd have to be worth the $$$ and it'd have to be

done very well.

 

It'd also provide a safe haven for those people wishing to avoid beginners

questions about digital point and shoots, etc.

 

I think it would be cost beneficial for photo.net, assuming the

people "teaching" were qualified to do so, and were not paid too much or too

little. Those teachers could have a new sybol or icon next to their name,

representing their new found functiona and status. It would not pretend to be

a foot into the door of stardom, just another way for people to spend $$$

online, learning. Of course, if stardom follows, that'd be great advertising

for photo.net Photo.net could also promote it's most highly rated "Pro-

Masterclass forum members", as part of the site.

 

Perhaps another idea following on from that last one. With the final results

from "Pro-Masterclass forum results week 52" photo.net could organise a

featured exhibition of work and sponsor for a chosen photographer. Thereby

inspiring exisitng "Pro-Masterclass forum members" to get their skates on.

 

Cheers.

[byronlawrence]

I couldn't imagine why they would delete it, the subject is a form of feedback, and an idea for the site,, which from my understanding IS what this forum is for.

 

personally I dont' think that would be a very good idea. becuase you would be charging people 200 dollars to essentially have some version of what they can get now. and I think a Lot of people would be come dissatisfied very quickly in such a class because there is only so much you can learn on the internet, books can be way more useful and personal instruction combined with books (or something) even more usefuller!. not that they wouldn't learn anything,, but would they learn 200 dollars of something?,

 

then you would have to come up with some form of game plan on how you will be teaching this class. and What makes someone qualify as a 'master'/ or teacher, and another thing I would expect learning from a 'master' (for a class I paid for) would be not just instruction on how to use a tool or even a thorough critique of already shot images, but field instruction pointing out what to look for, what not to look for, what to avoid, proper technique.. etc.

 

I think an implementation of this would mostly result in a 'club' of sorts,, which photographers already closely broach becoming. but this would be a club of people who had 200 dollars that had their work featured for a bit and then get to have a new title. after a year. of online training. I mean I give credit that the idea is definately interesting, but I don't think a cost/benefit ratio or maybe energy/benefit ratio would work out.. considering you have a year class ,, 52 weeks.. per person for how many thousand people. the logistics become a headache,, do teach them all at once?, or if not how long is the waiting list. even if you teach several hundred ,, how many 'exhibitions's would that be?

 

anyway not to completely shoot down your idea with my opinions, and it is Just an idea. but there is probably a better way.

 

btw,, I think the current plan to charge for storage and/or band width is probably fair. not as fun,, but fair. if there was a way to increase incentive for people to pay/subscribe OTHER than just removing ads and giving them more storage that would be nice. As it is the reason I subscribe now is because I joined free and really enjoyed the site, so I think that that should still be a part of it. maybe limit the number of photos you can upload to 10-20 at 200kb or less for free members and charge for anything above that. or change the policy of storage where there is still a membership, that gains you a larger limit,, but still a reasonable limit,, like say 100-200 photos, and you pay more for more storage (I think the site used to be like that). Another issue I think, is somehow increasing incentive for people to rate photos,,WITH a comment, , one idea coudl be only let people who have uploaded say at least 5 photos and submitted them for critique be allowed to rate and critique others. OR,, this might be an interesting idea.. have weighted ratings.. like take the person's average rating (like mine is 4.something) and that would be given a weighted rating value above somebody with a 3.something average, and less than those with a 5.some average. this system combined with the at least 5 photos minimum critiqued photos, would likely take care of trolls, .........ok I am off to lunch!

[ben conover]

Steve, your colour photos of Alberta are really TOTALLY outstanding. I was born there, have family there, and I plan to live and work there again. What format and techniques do you use mostly? Your photo of the Scottish bagpiper is really classic street stuff, excellent. My email is not working but I will get in touch asap.

 

 

 

byron, thanks, I thought it was a good idea too.

 

I would not be charging anyone $200, photo.net would have that pleasure.

 

People get a basic service here where they contribute and do not get access to specialist help, some folks might need that...

 

"there is only so much you can learn on the internet", precisely, so why not change that a little to include an interactive learning zone?

 

 

"personal instruction combined with books (or something) even more usefuller!."

 

Indeed byron, that's why I thought interactive zone learning would be an idea.

 

"not that they wouldn't learn anything, but would they learn 200 dollars of something?,"

 

Byron, $200 would buy you ONE very decent violin lesson. $200 online could provide a longer slower learning curve.

 

"then you would have to come up with some form of game plan on how you will be teaching this class."

 

Not my responsibilty, I just get to say I thought of it first.

 

"and What makes someone qualify as a 'master'/ or teacher,"

 

That's open to debate, but I'd say that experience, ability, total dedication, people skills, a professional attitude, and a degree of I.Q. would be useful traits to have.

 

"this would be a club of people who had 200 dollars that had their work featured for a bit and then get to have a new title. after a year. of online training."

 

Yup.

 

 

"I mean I give credit that the idea is definately interesting, but I don't think a cost/benefit ratio or maybe energy/benefit ratio would work out.."

 

Ok, I never was very good at economics.

 

"considering you have a year class ,, 52 weeks.. per person for how many thousand people. the logistics become a headache,, do teach them all at once?, or if not how long is the waiting list. even if you teach several hundred ,, how many 'exhibitions's would that be?"

 

That's the interesting bit.

 

"btw,, I think the current plan to charge for storage and/or band width is probably fair. not as fun,, but fair."

 

Does that mean I have to pay again? Do I get another helicopter?

 

"if there was a way to increase incentive for people to pay/subscribe OTHER than just removing ads and giving them more storage that would be nice."

 

Yes, but it works and people subscribe for those reasons.

I enjoyed lurking on this site for a year or so before joining,

I learned more in some ways.

 

Not sure about your ratings idea since ratings are of no interest to me.

 

Hope you enjoyed your lunch byron, I went for a long run to cool down. If Vivek is interested, while on my run I found an unusual species of Irish caterpillar. It is red and brown, maybe 4 inches long. I took some digital snaps which I'll upload when I get my USB working again.

 

Thanks for the responses.

[pjmeade]

Hello Ben, I think that your idea is a good one. Many of us spend a lot of money on buying kit, books and magazines, subscriptions to clubs and societies and web sites too, I think a little extra for a quality resource would be money well spent.

 

Except I wouldn't give it a name that could be in any way construed as elitist, I would just call it enhanced PN subscriber services, or something.

 

My 2p

 

Pete

[ben conover]

Hi Peter, thanks for the tuppence! I'm not old enough to remember but your tuppence reminded me of the old thruppence, which apparently according to my old step-father was around until 1970 -ish. Made me smile.

 

I agree the original wording of "Pro- Masterclass forum members", was rather snooty sounding, maybe zone learning or boot camp would be better phrases.

 

Please, let's keep this thread on topic.

[ben conover]

Vivek, yes it was an earnest question, why would/do you assume otherwise. I have not been following the latest on payment stuff for this site, and to be honest as implied my response, the payment schemes are not my chief concern. I quite like the helicopter thingy, but I don't make it an issue.

 

Vivek, I am clear about what I post, and you are clear about what you read. You are a scientist and you can read what I write as well as I can write it. Whether you are right or wrong about that is not an issue. To be honest, I'm confused now. Here's a big handshake to you all and hope we can settle down now.

 

Thanks.

[philg]

One of my pet ideas is structured online classes, which we asked about in the August survey and readers seem to like it as well. My idea is that the class works in loose sync, with everyone given a similar assignment to complete over a 2-3 day period. The results are uploaded and criticism happens, with priority given to folks in the class and some actual working photography teachers that we hire if we ever get any money from that new homepage design that attracted so much ire.

 

[Moderators of this forum (I'm not one anymore): I would have deleted a lot of the foregoing. The first message, by Vivek, mentions some other user (Tim Holte) and then posits something that only Tim Holte could possibly know (whether or not Tim Holte "meant well"). Generally speaking, if a photo.net member's name is cited in a posting other than to say "look at this person's work", it is probably off-topic and unhelpful. photo.net at its best is about photography, not individuals and their personalities (and let's face it, the better the photographer, generally the worse the personality; people with good personalities go into well-paid careers that require a good personality). The next one, from "Spot", is trying to be cute and funny. Certainly he amused himself, but unless you guys actually started laughing when you read it, it should go. The inclusion of Vivek's mention of this Holte guy sparked off a lot of postings that should be deleted because they are about Holte and what he meant. Yongbo's posting at the end should be deleted because it is kind of off-topic (analogous to someone asking whether he should go to U. Maryland or Washington University and the answer is "neither because you can spend the $$ and time better by doing something other than going to college").]

[hatley]

I'd spend $200 on a workshop/class of some sort, for sure. The key thing for me would be something involving prints. As in, at the end of the class you get one print from each of the participants - with the workshop being aimed at ramping up to enter your final entry into a photo contest or the like. Or a nifty project where a gallery owner shows one 8x10 photo from each entrant in a "photo.net show", etc. I'm sure brighter minds can think of other fantastic incentives and things that would jazz up folks too.

[berryl]

One of my pet ideas is structured online classes

 

 

Great Idea, I am all for it. I spend a lot of money on photo equipment. And I mean a lot! I most certainly would spend $200.oo to better learn how to use all this expensive equipment.

 

Berryl

[ben conover]

Philip,

 

Thanks for your response. Your pet idea is interesting and allows for some flexibility. The 2-3 day frame is probably easier to deal with and if things need changing there's always the next time.

Better that way with more regular feedback resulting. Hiring actual working photography teachers would likely produce further interest, over time you'd find a few regular teachers that'd fit the bill and make the whole thing operate effectively. Perhaps the occasional inclusion of a famous celebrity photographer as teacher for a day or two would also add interest for some. Like you say, it'd cost.

 

 

Michael,

 

That's a great idea. Traditional prints are fantastic for sure. Only thing is that it'd be very hard to quantify the quality and learning of prints and techniques online.

 

Cheers.

[ben conover]

Berryl, glad to hear you are interested.

 

Goodnight.

[c.r._hips]

Ben, it is so nice to hear positive ideas for making this site better and self sufficient. The

sooner the talent pool on P.N. is exploited the better. More efficient and specific learning

forms would transform everyones participation here. I hope your idea gets the attention it

deserves by the management.

[ben conover]

Hey Hips thanks, not sure changing the fora around would help at the moment since the site is undergoaing a face lift. Perhaps when things are consolidated we'll see some action.

[h._p.]

Philip, a couple of thoughts about your post and Ben's:

 

The great strength of Internet (or 'off-line' learning as we called it in the early 'nineties) is that it's asynchronous. If you were going to implement this, wouldn't it be better to have a seperate forum/gallery tree for people taking part in the courses? Then they could have parts of the tree revealed to them, as they progress, and so see how others before them have tackled the assignments, AFTER they themselves have done so. It would be easy to implement, with each student being granted an access level code, by their tutor, for the course they were following. This is similar to systems I was involved in developing many years ago and which had high satisfaction rates among the students.

[mg]

"photo.net at its best is about photography, not individuals and their personalities (and let's face it, the better the photographer, generally the worse the personality; people with good personalities go into well-paid careers that require a good personality)." Ph.G.

 

Well said. And I sincerely wish more people here would learn how to respect people and simply look at what they say from a logical and/or photographic point of view.