Nice folding 6x9 - which one?

[yuri_saniko]

I'm looking for good 6x9 folding camera. Please advise me which one

should i get, and where can i look for those cameras online, except

Eb#y? My budget is $250-300. I was thinking about Agfa Record III, is

this a good choice?<br>

Thanks!

[larry_mobbs]

Too Bad that ebay is not available. I just picked up this Voigtlander for less than $50. It has a mask for 6x4.5 as well. I have a few of these. I find the Voigtlanders easiest to use but better lens quality with the Zeiss line.<div></div>

[jim h1664876971]

Yep lots of people like those agfas. Another to consider is the Voightlander Bessa II.

Which is about 300 on E__y for one with a color skopar. Or maybe an ikonta would

be a good choice. Keep in mind that on a good number of these cameras you will

need CLA on the shutter especially for the slower speeds, So add about 100 for that.

[mike_elek]

If I had $250-$300 and was looking for an old folder, I'd go for a nice Super Ikonta C model with a Tessar lens. Otherwise, I'd go for a 6x9 Ikonta C with a Tessar lens.

 

Aside from online auctions, you might get lucky at a flea market or second-hand shop or antique store or even an estate sale. Camera stores tend to be more expensive, because they know the real value of the cameras.

 

As always, check the bellows for holes and mold/fungus on the lens and ensure the shutter works at all speeds.

[miguel_azar]

I have the Agfa, I have the Bessa and also a Russian Zeiss knock off. The Agfa's, if you pick the right lens are great - they do have lens sticking issues. I have never liked the Bessa - its alignment is suspect. The Russian camera is the most bang for the buck, but its best at f11-16 - otherwise soft. If you want to go on the cheap try an Ansco Viking - they are a relabeled Agfa (they have different levels so pick at least the f6.3 or better lens)- at f11-16 they are very good. You should be able to get one for under $30.00 - mine have ranged from $5 (Viking)-$150 for the Record III. I would buy a budget version, make sure you like the format and then move up. No big deal to throw out $30.00. My reading on the Zeiss - they also have alignment issues - this is the unfolding part. Just remember on all Agfa cameras of this period - the chances are vey good that the lens may be gooed stuck. With lots of soaking and work - you can fix this issue. Good luck.

 

Miguel

[ward]

I have both Zeiss Ikonta C (tessar) and a Voigtlander Bessa II and strongly prefer to use the Bessa II. It produces images that are just spectacular, bright, evenly exposed. And it has the coupled rangefinder to boot. I'm sure there are plenty of others who prefer the Zeiss, and I bet you will prefer the one you eventually find first. (Preference is usually just a matter of commitment and ideology.) As long as the shutter works and the bellows are tight, you'll have a hoot with whatever you get.

[jaroslav_ilnytskyi]

Of the all 6x9 folding camera I owned and tried (Agfa Record III w Apotar 105/f4.5, Ikonta Nettar w Tessar 105/f4.5, Moskva-4 w Industar 110/f4.5, Bessa w Skopar 105/f4.5, Baldalux w Radionar 105/f4.5, Bessa RF w Skopar 105/f3.5) I liked the results from Bessa RF w Skopar 105/f3.5 the most. This model got coupled rengefinder, moving whole lens/shutter assembly, excellent (uncoated) lens and is moderately priced ($100-150 on eBay, probably more in the shop). It is a predecessor of Bessa II model. The whole moving lens/shutter assembly (in contrary to front element focusing models, all the rest in the list) in my opinion do make a difference in picture quality for closer shots given the RF is adjusted. I did both BW and chromes and the colour rendering is really good (lens hood is a must). The same must be true for Bessa II as well and with even better results from coated Skopar/Heliar, but essentially more to pay for this model. Concerning Agfa Record III - the holding and controls are very pleasant to use, the rangefinder is nice (but beware of poor quality bellows and frozen front element sometimes). I didn't liked the results from mine with Apotar 105/f4.5, perhaps Solinar equipped models are better. I wasn't satisfied with both resolution, abberations and colours especially away of 3-5m settings, but I might just had a bad example. I didn't liked the results from Moskva-4 as well, particularly for uncorrected abberations. Some other users quite like theirs, though.

 

Good luck,

[bob fowler]

For $250 to $300, I'd consider a Pacemaker Crown Graphic or a Century Graphic and a roll film back. Not exactly pocket size, but a very useful camera.

[yuri_saniko]

Thanks for your answers!<br>

Right now i have Bessa (older all black version without flash shoe) with Vaskar 105/4.5 (coated). Shutter is a little off, 1 second is sticky, but for b/w film this is pretty good camera. <br>

I love 6x9 format, so now i'm looking for 1-2 more cameras. I'm planning to have couple of them in my backpack, one with color and one with b/w film.<br>

How about Xpres lenses on Ensign selfix 820 or autorange 820? Did anyone tryed it? <br>

I will look for cameras on Ebay, but maybe you can give me few links on good online stores with folding cameras? Something like www.ritzcam.com

[larry_mobbs]

Let me tell you something a camera technician would choke on. Your slow shutter speeds are usually caused by the physical mechanism being dirty. You can buy electronics cleaner at Radio Shack that flushes this dirt away and then evaporates. There is a small risk that the spray can work it's way into the lens but brushing on a small amount on the machanism might instantly free up the slow speeds perfectly.

[gib]

I have several Soviet Contax copies with slow shutter speeds, they seem to have reliable 1/125th and 1/250th speeds. If one was to attempt the electronic cleaner fix, would it work on these babies?

 

I have been inside one that had good shutter speeds but unusual for these cameras the rangefinder was off and though I made it better, it was still not right.

[yuri_saniko]

Larry, thank you for advice. Do you know exact name of this electronics cleaner so i can order it online at RadioShack?

[yuri_saniko]

Maybe that's the one?:<br>

<a hrefhttp://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F011%5F001%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=64%2D4345">http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F011%5F001%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=64%2D4345</a>

[larry_mobbs]

Yuri, you have the right product. This also comes in a pressurized can but that presents a risk to seeping into the lens as it is hard to control where it goes. It takes just a drop or two to be effective. Most leaf shutters use a different mechanism for 1/15th sec or slower and I believe this is the culprit. On old Rolleicords the shutter release and cocking mechanism came out of a slot below the taking lens. This seemed to capture a lot of dirt. I bought a number of these labeled as having "broken shutter" and could have them working five minutes after receiving them. The method has worked on folding cameras and older rangefinders with leaf shutters.

[gary_ferguson1]

I agree with Jaroslav Ilnytskyi's comment about focusing with just a moving front element versus an assembly that moves the entire lens.

 

Comparing contemporary Zeiss standard lenses on a Super Ikonta V (moving front element) with a Hasselblad 500C and a Rolleiflex 3.5E (entire lens moves), at f5.6 there's not too much between them at infinity, but move in below about 15 feet and there's a clear advantage to the latter two.

[steve_gangi2]

For 6x9 I use an Agfa/Ansco Viking. It is very no-frills, with scale focus, but the results have been very good. One thing to watch out for, in some old folders the focus locks up and refuses to turn from lack of use.

[silent1]

<i>For 6x9 I use an Agfa/Ansco Viking. It is very no-frills, with scale focus, but the results have been very good. One thing to watch out for, in some old folders the focus locks up and refuses to turn from lack of use.</i><p>

 

I'm even a step below this -- I have a Wirgin Auta 6.3, with the Gewironar lens (a generic Cooke triplet), f/6.3, and a 3-speed shutter. The focus was stiff when I got it, though not locked, and the shutter was sticky, but a little cleaning and a couple iterations of focus adjustment has it now producing very acceptable images. The one time I've tried using the format masks to take 6x4.5, I got some scratches on my emulsion -- but I really prefer 6x9 in any case, and with the extremely good deal I got on a dozen rolls each of Portra 400 NC and TMY, it costs me only a few cents more per frame to shoot 6x9, with the opportunity to change from B&W to color more frequently if I want/need to.

[Julio Fernandez]

I have used an Agfa Billy Record and am quite satisfied. Just be careful if the camera has a red window for reading the frame number when winding the film. Do it in a relatively dark place and quickly. You might fog modern color films through the paper and the red window in strong daylight. (It happened to me in my first roll with Velvia, probably left the window open too long facing the sun, admittely an extreme situation).

 

Also open the back of the camera and look carefully with the shutter open in B or T and the diaphragm fully open, to make sure that you get a full frame, without shadows from the bellows (some bellows may have been repaired leaving a small vignette someplace).

 

Good luck

[silent1]

<i>Just be careful if the camera has a red window for reading the frame number when winding the film. Do it in a relatively dark place and quickly. You might fog modern color films through the paper and the red window in strong daylight. (It happened to me in my first roll with Velvia, probably left the window open too long facing the sun, admittely an extreme situation).</i><p>

 

I've heard this warning before, but it doesn't match my experience. I have an Asnco Speedex Jr. that doesn't even have a shutter under the red window; I regularly load it with 400 speed film, both B&W and color, and have never identified a fogged spot even from direct sunlight on the window. Going a little further, my Seagull has the red plastic broken out of the both (6x6 and 6x4.5) windows, though the shutter is intact and functional; I've shot at up to EI 3200 in that camera, and never seen a sign of fogging through the backing paper.<p>

 

It's certainly possible it could happen, if the film had thinner paper than the Kodak and Fuji films I've tried -- but I've never seen it.

[jaroslav_ilnytskyi]

I had a red window light leak onto the film in one camera only (paradoxically, in Bessa RF 6x9, the best one in a lot in my previous message above). That happened because the pressure plate is not coming tight to the red window and the light strikes the inside of the camera throught the red window at some angle. To cure this one can glue a velvet ring around the red window opening inside the camera (as in pre-war Super Ikonta 645) or a ring cut of some soft porous media (e.g. mouse-pad). It shouldn't be too thick to avoid pressure plate bending. You may need to sacrifice the slide cover for the red window but if the ring works there will be no need in that.

[silent1]

<i>I had a red window light leak onto the film in one camera only (paradoxically, in Bessa RF 6x9, the best one in a lot in my previous message above). That happened because the pressure plate is not coming tight to the red window and the light strikes the inside of the camera throught the red window at some angle.</i><p>

 

Okay, light bouncing around inside the camera from the red window, I can believe -- though in that case, I'm not certain how you'd ever tell that was where it came from. Fortunately for my sanity, all three of my currently operating MF cameras have light seals around the window, so that shouldn't be an issue for me.

[jaroslav_ilnytskyi]

>>

Okay, light bouncing around inside the camera from the red window, I can believe -- though in that case, I'm not certain how you'd ever tell that was where it came from

>>

 

Because that was on colour slide film and a light leak was red :-)

[john_shriver]

I have a Kodak Monitor Six-20 with the Anastigmat Special lens. The lens is very sharp, comparisons with a Zeiss Ikonta C (Tessar) show it equal or slightly better. Kodak sold essentially the same lens as an Ektar for view cameras. Around $20 to $40 on eBay. More at dealers, of course. Post-war ones with a coated lens are probably twice as expensive.

 

The body design is just a lot more modern, the automatic wind indexing is very handy, along with double-exposure protection and a sprung shutter over the red window.

 

I put an external rangefinder in the (much appreciated) accessory shoe on the top. (I'm terrible at distance estimation, I took a lot of out-of-focus shots with the Ikonta.)

 

The ony hassle is the 620 film format. But this camera isn't very fussy, and the "snip the edge off the 120 plastic reel" approach works fine. You just need a stock of 620 take-up spools. No rewinding required.

 

Also, the bellows can be an issue. The bellows Kodak used on the Vigilants, Monitors, and Tourists just aren't up to the quality or durability of the Zeiss ones. I plan to find a "donor camera" with a really fresh bellows to transplant into the Monitor. I've seen some Vigilants with fresh shiny bellows.

 

The top-of-the-line Vigilant Six-20's aren't shabby either. I think you can even find it with the Anastigmat Special, but the Anaston is a more likely find. It just has ordinary red-window winding, with a swinging cover. Weighs less than the Monitor. Just avoid all the low-end Vigilant and Vigilant Juniors. (There are many different models.)

 

The Supermatic shutters on these cameras are easy to clean and lube. You may have to cut a wrenching slot in the holder for the front group to get it out, they cranked it down really tight.