MF autofocus systems - Puzzled

[marc p.]

I am a little puzzled after a visit at a local (NY) photo retailer (B&H). I have decided to

make a move to MF autofocus and went to check the different systems available; I had

read a number of reviews on the forum (Contax 645, Mamiya AFD, Pentax NII, and

Rollei 6008AF) and wanted to get my own feeling for each camera. I unfortunately am

no better for that.

 

First, they had no demo Rollei. The guy told me they are poorely constructed and

they do not want to have their customers look at them. Full stop. So I could not even

see one. So much for the Rollei.

 

Second, he shove a H'blad H1 into my hands, telling me it's the best; to my request,

he added the Contax and the Mamiya. Hesitated a split second to show me the Pentax

(!) mentioning it is really a step below the others and should not be worth considering

(!). I was a little surprised since a lot of people here seem to enjoy theirs. Anyway, I

took a good look at all the cameras, all feel well balanced, well built, etc. Autofocus

performance seemed equivalent for all; the Contax might be a little more silent. There

is only so much one can judge in a store anyway.

 

Now the question: I priced all the systems according to my needs, and for a decent

package (camera + 3 lenses), prices range from $4500 (Pentax) to over $11,000 (H1).

Mamiya is about $7000 and Contax $8000. I will have to sell some equipment to

finance that acquisition, and initially, for financial reasons, was going to go with the

Pentax. Now this salesman put a lot of doubt in my head, and I really don't know what

to think. Apart from marketing, how is the price difference justified? The Pentax

optics are really cheaper, but does that mean they are not as good? I have read raving

reviews of all systems on this forum; has anyone used more than one and could you

tell me which one you preferred, and why?

 

Today, I mainly use Leica M gear for 35mm; will I be able to get better blow-ups than

with my 35mm with all systems, or are there limitations? (I think I know the answer to

this one, but ...)

 

Thanks for your help,

Marc

[steven_clark]

Ignore the salesman.

[dale_dickerson2]

"they had no demo Rollei. The guy told me they are poorely constructed and they do not want to have their customers look at them."

 

That is a bold face lie. Do not listen to that salesperson.

 

The 6008Af is very well built.

[jimvanson]

Pentax optics are as good as anyones...the only problem with them is they only cost one third as much as everyones. Having said that I'll add that I'd rent the systems I was interested in before dropping that kind of cash.

[ken_rexach]

What do you want the camera for? The advantage that the Contax, Mamiya and Hassy 645's have over the Pentax is that they have removable backs and viewfinders (the Mamiyas viewfinder isnt removable) and accept several digital backs. I have personally seen the Contax and the quality is superb. If you dont need the interchangable back and viewfinder capability get the Pentax 645, its by FAR the best value.

[john_photo]

Marc,

 

I wouldnt buy a camera from that guy.

 

Also: the latest generation of medium format lenses from any manufacturer will provide stellar image quality. If you like

german glass and all its "smoothness" "excellent bokeh" etc then go with the contax.

 

I have a bronica etrsi and was worried about the glass before I bought but tried a few different medium format cameras and found them

all to be very good as far as optics go ( the latest generation of optics not the stuff made in the 60's 70's and even into the eighties: for example I am not fond of older bronica mc glass and shoot only the latest production runs ). I would imagine that pentax and mamiya glass is also first rate and very sharp if you buy the new stuff.

 

These are all pro systems and the rollei 6008i ( non autofocus ) is a TANK of a camera so that salesman is jiving you. Buy your camera from robertwhite.co.uk and save a couple of grand.

[jonathan brewer]

The salesman has no class or integrity, he's trying to sell you what HE wants you to buy, and whatever will make him his biggest profit margin I suspect, go to www.photographyreview.com to MF for user opinions, check out everywhere and then get what you want.

 

Let a few Doctors and Lawyers get tired of their H1, Rollei, Contax645, or latest do everything rocketships and then buy used for a big savings on the ridiculous asking prices listed above.

[chris_henry1]

Huge difference isn't it? Your Leica gear is able to do things that most MF

gear will not be able to do, namely give you excellent photographs while

shooting at low shutter speeds handheld. Think of MF as something to

supplement your present system. Among the systems mentioned, the optics

are pretty much equal, with some having one or two lenses that are

outstanding. Relative to the others, the Pentax is a great bargain; the only

downside being that there isn't a digital platform available right this minute.

That will probably change in the near future. As for the others, the digital

backs start at $12,000. That is an option for pro studios, maybe, or perhaps

tobacco settlement litigators, but most others will probably take a pass

(including your average doctors and lawyers). Hasselblad offers lens

shutters, unlike the others, so up to 1/800 flash sync with Fujinon glass.

Contax offers Zeiss-licensed Kyocera glass, which is excellent. The lenses

are powered by a clutchless USM, unlike the Mamiya. The Mamiya has great

lenses as well.

 

You will get better enlargements only by using a tripod in cases where you

might handhold the Leica. You are comparing large SLRs with moving mirrors

and lots of potential for vibration-induced blur with a 35mm rangefinder.

[george_sanderson]

On the question of 35mm quality against MF check this comment

http://www.asc.upenn.edu/usr/cassidy/leicaslacker/truth.html

[garvey_p]

As others mentioned, the salesman is trying to make money, not help you.

 

Forget B&H and buy Pentax from somewhere like Delta (i.e., gray market). You'll save a bundle. I don't know what your ideal 3 lens system would be, but the 645Nii with 120 back, 75, 45, and 150 FA lenses would run about $3000.

[fotografz]

The opinions you will recieve here will vary based on actual

experience with the cameras mentioned, what folks have read,

or justification for their own choices. But it is not driven by making

a commission on a sale to you.

 

Try calling Calumet for folks that'll spend a little more time

discussing the cameras...you don't have to buy from them if the

prices aren't competitive. But with any of these systems be wary

of buying anything without clear factory support like a USA

warranty. Otherwise you might as well buy a used kit from a light

user as suggested by another poster here. It is a LOT less

expensive even if the gear is in good shape. Get it with a 10 day

return option in writing.

 

In my experience with using the different MF AF systems, each

offers different application specs, so how you plan to use the

system will provide better direction for your purchase.

 

The Contax 645 is a proven system that offers fast aperture

Zeiss T* optics with clutchless AF motors that allow instant

manual take-over when wanted. The body provides a top

shutter speed of 1/4000th that allows use of the fast f stops in

brighter light...so it's good for ambient daylight work to isolate

the subject against the background. The top sync speed is

1/125th which is useable in bright light for fill, but requires

stopping down to a higher f stop. The body supports flash use

with an in camera flash meter. You can currently get a new USA

kit for about $3,600. including body, metered prism, 120/220

back, and a 80/2 lens. That same kit, in mint to mint - condition,

can be had for around $2,400. The Contax 645 is digital ready

system. The camera also can be used with any Hasselblad V or

F lens with focus confirmation in the viewfinder.

 

The Mamiya 645, is very similar in specs to the Contax 645, but

provides a bit broader range of lens choices, including all the

manual focus glass with focus confirmation in the viewfinder. I

think it is slightly faster auto focusing in poor light due to the on

camera focusing light. But none of these MF are fast focusing in

the manner of a 35mm SLR like the top Nikons and Canons.

The chief difference between these two systems IMO is the

glass. If you like the Leica look then you will most likely love the

Contax/Zeiss look. They are both technically excellent and sharp

as hell, but there is a difference in over-all feel. This system is

digital ready also.

 

The H1 isn't a well proven system as of yet. There is some

question about the lenses...again, not from a technical or

sharpness perspective (Fuji lenses are not 2nd rate in any way),

It is the look and feel compared to Zeiss T* optics used for years

on Hasselblad MF cameras. The H1 is, from my experience, the

fastest AF of the bunch, but not by enough of a margin to justify

the significantly higher price. The chief difference here is that the

lenses are leaf shuttered with a top shutter speed of 1/800th.

This means you can shoot fill flash at a much higher shutter

speed than the other 2 systems. It also means it is the highest

you can go in bright ambient light, forcing you to stop down and

increasing DOF (less ability to isolate the subject from the

background).

 

I have not used the Rollie AF, but I'm fairly sure it is not junk as

the sales guy said. Rollie seems more popular in Europe than

the US where Hasselblad has held sway for decades. So,

second hand acessories are a bit harder to come by. This

camera is less of a portable choice that the 645s, and is usually

thought of as a tripod / studio camera.

 

The Pentax is pretty small if I remember correctly but far less

versatile than the later designs of the Mamiya and Contax. It is

not a digital ready system unless things have changed since I

used one.

 

So apply your specific usage requirements to the overview and it

should be easier to narrow the choices.

 

(BTW, I am a Leica M shooter, and chose the Contax based

primarily on the glass).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[richardcook]

I do not mean to demean salesmen. There are wonderful salesmen out there and I salute them. These are people with enormous funds of knowledge, patience, insight, wisdom, and ethics. The problem you will have is distinguishing these pillars of the temple of commerce from the other ones. They all look and sound so very much alike.

 

Large retailers of complex consumer hi-tech are uniformly poor places to learn about the equipment. They are entirely driven by volume and they are set up to produce volume. It is rare, even exceptional, to find salespeople in this setting who are not working on a commission. In most cases, the retailing company determines what it needs to sell and how to 'push' the items, often changing this on a daily basis and offering incentives to sales people for specific items, e.g. a daily or weekly 'push' with a direct payment to the salesperson for each item sold. The success of these approaches requires that they be hidden from the consumer, of course, and so you will find most places denying that they do this -- but it is common practice.

 

If you are lucky in such a setting, the salesperson is a failed professional photographer who knows something about one or two brands because he (these folks are uniformly male) could not making a living with these cameras. (In one case, my salesman was a former company rep, layed off by the company and now working in retail -- you can imagine the discussion.) If you are unlucky, you simply have someone who has read the promotional literature. This is especially the case in the large appliance stores or computer stores that have digital cameras for sale.

 

The strategy of the high-end push is this: If you come in telling the salesman you want to buy a system and express no knowledge, the salesman will immediately mark you as someone with lots of money and no knowledge. He will sell the most expensive thing in the store to you and sell it hard. If you look like someone with money, he will have at least a decent chance of getting you to buy the system then and there. He will "close" the deal at every opportunity and keep closing throughout the sale. If he tells you too much about too many different lines, you are likely to become confused and the confused customer will not spend thousands of dollars. Instead you will put off the decision and he will looose the sale. There is nothing to be gained by such an approach. He wants you to buy from him. If you buy a camera frmo someone else he gets no benefit at all from your interest in cameras. If you leave the store today, that sale is gone. Period.

 

In general, the value of large retailers is the availability of many items and the reliability of the transaction. They are likely to have a low price but not necessarily the lowest price. When you are ready to buy a specific item, you should look to them for price and availability.

 

There are many good sources of information. These include, roughly in the order in which I consult them, (1) photo.net; (2) the individual reviews (e.g. luminous landscape) of specific cameras; (3) the camera specific websites maintained by the owners groups; (4) the websites maintained by the manufacturers; (5) the reviews in camera magazines (quite variable in quality and often heavily influenced by manufacturer advertising decisions in those same magazines); (6) books on the subject.

[marc p.]

Thank you all for the answers; I will use this camera mostly for portrait work, and hence with a 120 micro lens. With this in mind, and the recommendations for places to shop, and more, I will hopefully be in a position to make a more informed decision.

 

Marc

[joshua_i._divack]

B&H is a great store but the MF salesmen routinely badmouth both the Rollei 600X and the Pentax 67 systems. If you are considering the 6008AF go over to Ken Hansen at 509 Madison Ave (53rd Street), 18th floor. They will have a demo, and will spend as much time as you want comparing it to the other systems.

[derek_stanton2]

Hi, Marc.

I've recently gone through the same process, and received much of the same advice

from B&H sales reps. Unlike many in this thread, i defend their position.

 

Relative to Rollei, their is a tremendous difference in how their MF SLRs are received

in the US versus Europe. I've come to believe that they are more popular in Europe

than Hasselblad, while here in the US, the opposite is true. Reasons why? No idea.

But, the BH rep(s) [both in the new and 'used' departments] are wary to recommend

them. The Used camera salesman tells me they get, perhaps, 10 calls per week from

photographers wishing to sell them, versus 1-2 from those looking to buy. They

aren't buying any more used cameras. That, to me, was a sticking point. No one,

however, will dispute that the lenses for the Rollei (Zeiss and Schneider) are excellent

- perhaps the best. A common opinion, though, is that the electronics are not as

reliable as in other cameras. I don't know that to be true. And, if you read the

opinions in this forum, Rollei 600x users seem to be a happy bunch. But, the BH rep

did tell you about the current, local 'climate' relative to Rollei, and that information

may or may not be of interest to you. I took it seriously, and also dismissed the 6008

series. It also seemed quite significant to me that a store like B&H BARELY even has a

Rollei SLR display. Not very encouraging, despite what's on the Rollei specsheet. More

importantly, though, i favoured the size, ergonomics and viewfinder of the

Hasselblads.

 

Regarding Pentax versus the others, it really does come down to removeable backs

and digital capability. Pentax actually has 'classic bokeh.' It's different from Zeiss, but

quite nice. I don't know how the lenses test for 'sharpness.' I've never heard any

complaints about any of these cameras' lenses. The Contax, though, does have a

slight advantage with the 80mm, as it's a faster lens at f2, instead of 2.8. I wouldn't

read too much into the pricing issue as an indicator of quality. As you are aware with

the Leica system versus the Contax G2, dollars don't equate to quality. The same case

can be made in medium format, as the lenses for the Pentax 67 are amazing, and yet

'cheap.' [Did i read recently that a new Pentax 645 is being discussed?]

 

The H1 is still very new, and there isn't a lot of reliable feedback about it. The early

discussion revolved around the choice of Fuji as the lens manufacturer. Personally, i

haven't seen enough images from the H1 to know if the lenses are sufficiently 'Zeiss-

like.' Perhaps they'll just have their own character and will prove to be fantastic in

their own right. But, at this point, it seems like a lot of money to put into such a new

system, especially if you are not yet sure if 645 is the right move. What's your

timeline?

 

Regarding your Leica M gear versus medium format.... "better blow-ups" may depend

on the size of your enlargements and film you prefer. I was surprised to see that i

could perceive no additional 'detail' in an image shot with a Mamiya 6+50mm versus

the 'same' image shot with a Leica M+35mm Summicron-ASPH. Of course, both were

on Tri-X, so maximum lens resolution could not be exploited, but i thought the film

enlargement factor would be a benefit to the medium format rangefinder. But, at

11x14 inches, the Leica picture actually looked a bit better....

 

Back to the B&H guys.... It's unfortunate that you had a bad experience with one of

their salesmen. I don't know the true reasons for his biases. I suspect, though, that

this guy was busy, and was abrupt in efforts to 'cut to the chase.' If someone comes

into the store without a more focused interest in a specific product or comparison

between two products, they can be a bit harsh. I've seen it, and although i know they

should be respectful to the needs of every consumer, i know it must be difficult to

maintain that consistency. It's a personality issue. Some of the guys there are better

at dealing with customers, and some just want to move the lines. But, it's a huge

store, and i've always been able to get the information and product i need. Yah, i do

have a bias in favor of B&H. Love the place.

 

Have you read the user reviews at www.photographyreview.com?

 

Good luck,

[robert miller]

Ok my opinion as someone who has just been in this situation.

 

I bought the H1 firstly becuase I fell in love with it as soon as I picked it up and secondly because it has some really nice program features that some of the others don't. The lenses are very sharp, maybe too sharp. Yes I am going to pay this one off for a long time.

 

Having said that, I know people who have the Mamiya and the Contax 645's and they are very happy with their cameras. I guess what you need to do is really decide what you want to do with the camera and then choose the camera that has the features that best suite your needs.

[steve_levine]

I have to ask,what the hell do you need or want an AF MF system for?These are designed for wedding shooters.Buy a manual focus MF kit,forget the AF's they are finicky things that hate moisture,tempurature extremes etc.

[steven_clark]

Just remember: at any store with big enough corporate politics the ethical salespeople are the ones who get fired.

[marc p.]

The reason why I want an AF MF...

 

It took me a while to decide what I really want and I am still searching. In 35mm, I am

happy with my leicas. I love the feel, love the lenses, and most important, now I know

how to use them to the best; that is, except when I need the extra quality offered by a

bigger negative. Or when I could use a SLR for tightly cropped portraits.

 

So I tried other formats; I had a 500cm for a while; I took great pictures with it, but

never was convinced about the handling. It seemed that I always needed a tripod to

get the best out of it, trying to juggle with the meter in one hand, the speed

and focus settings with the other, and then rewinding the camera with the third ... So

I thought, if I need a tripod anyway, why not a LF?

 

I sold the 500 for an Arca-Swiss and a couple of lenses. Again, that's a great system,

but not that handy for portraits. I used it for a little while, and then, in Antelope

Canyon, a few weeks ago, it struck me when I dropped my polaroid back in the sand

when I was trying to unstuck my loupe from the hinged ground glass that I wasn't

made for that. Too complicated, too much work; I missed a lot of the sweet light

during that trip, just because the set-up was not easy enough. Ended up making a lot

of pictures in 35mm, with the limits imposed by the negative size.

 

Maybe I create problems for myself; I know there is no perfect system. After all the

cameras I have used, though, I have a better idea of what I need: a camera that will be

as easy to use as my f100 (w/ automated mode when I need them, AF when I need it,

and accurate internal metering), portable enough to shoot w/o a tripod when I want

it, and with a negative big enough to satisfy my crave for quality, even when

enlargement are required.

 

I think that's an AF MF. But then, you guys tell me if I am wrong ...

[marc p.]

Derek:

 

I find it interesting that MF did not bring a substantial improvement when enlarging

pictures; I would expect the grain to be less noticeable with a larger negative,

whatever the film sensitivity being considered.

 

As far as sharpness is concerned, after having documented myself a bit more, I am

not particularly worried about lenses capabilities. I am used to shooting with lenses

that are 3 times my age, and they are plenty sharp for what I do! However, what do

you exactly mean with "classic bokeh" (this is particularly important to me for

portraits)?

[evan_dong1]

Marc,

 

Ignore what that one particular salesman told you. B & H Photo has quite a few good salesman who CAN help you with that decision. Unfortunately, the seasoned salesman are not the ones at the MF counter.

 

The ROllei system is a very good option consisting what it has to offer over the other player in the field. YOu choices of camera system you focused on, are very good choices. The ultimate way you plan to use the camera for current needs AND also FUTURE needs will help you decide which path you should be on.

 

Yes, buying from an Overseas company do have its advantage, mainly price. However, just keep this in the back of your mind for any future warranty repairs and also out of warranty repairs. Rollei USA, Hasselblad USA, and Mamiya USA (probably Contax USA and Pentax USA)

has a warning on their respective website regarding "Gray Market" equipments. The issue of Warranty and also Out of Warranty Repairs are clearly stated here. Just be informed of their policy before jumping to buy from Robert White or whomever you decided yo buy form. There is a thread with the Medium FOrmat Digest regarding a Gray Market Rollei bought from Robert White for warranty repairs.

 

The Hasselblad Warranty Issue was discovered when a friend of mine try to get his camera repaired. He had to ship to Hasselblad Sweden for the final repair.

 

If I had to do it over all again, I would rent first to try out the camera system you really like. Then determine IF the entire system could be rented on a short notice in the evetn yo need something to use or borrow to compete an assignement.

 

GOod Luck on your search for the right camera system.

 

Evan

[cl_ho2]

I also experienced the same here in Hong Kong.

 

The salesmen from those so called "Big and Reputable" retail shops always have 'big nose'. They only expect the customer come in and put down the cash ! They don't expect or want the customer to try the goods or ask any question ! To be a smart consumer, I don't always truth the salesmen. I will do my homework before I go to the shop and check the price before making decision. Don't be interference by the salesmen on-site ! I usually leave the shop and go for others if they don't provide a reasonable service standard or they even seem my shopping is a burden to them !

 

Anyway, Pentax 645NII is very good which have a very strong price position and overall performance according to the recommendation by other users in the forum.

[steven_palow]

im a happy contax 645 user and have nothing but good things to say about my camera, but i dont really have a whole lot to say about the others from first hand experience. i will offer you my thought process if i had to do it all over again, today, knowing what i know now. to give you an idea about what i shoot, it is almost all black and white, and use continuous lighting so the shutter diffrences between these models doesnt really bother me too much. i do appreciated the contax's super high shutter speed outdoors though.

 

i seriously doubt id consider the H1. it and the contax seem too similiar for me to consider more expensive H1. that said im sure someone could say the same to me about the mamiya ;) but i digress. i will say that contax build quality feels better than the mamiya and i like the auto/manual focus feel of the zeiss lenses.

 

if i wasnt going to get the contax again, id seriously consider the new rollei AF. my understanding is it is very similiarly priced compared to the H1, but offers some real diffrences. 6x6 being first and foremost. personally i dont care for the square. if i had it i may change my mind on that. you may love it, but the real reason id like that format options is the rotating 645 back. i shoot mostly people, so i turn my camera a lot when either hand holding or shooting on a tripod. its not the worst thing in the world, but i could certainly do without it. if im not mistaken the rollei lenses have faster top shutter speeds also.

 

here is my final, uneducated opinion on the H1 vs rollei. as many people point out, the H1 is ALL new and not really proven yet. im sure it will do fine, but the rollei, in my understanding, is MOSTLY new. it and its lenses are improved versions of the systems that have been around awhile. just something you may want to consider.

 

i will happily be corrected by anyone who knows more about the H1 or rollei system than i do, which wouldnt be too hard. i do however feel very strongly that the contax is a great system. since im 4 lenses deep and many little accessories into it, i dont think ill be switching anytime soon. now if contax released a new improved version of its body, id be hella excited. multipoint autofocus and some kind of focus assist would be an amazing improvement on an incredible system.

 

i wish i could give you some more concrete facts, but hopefully, the thoughs of this contax owner helps you some. good luck and take care.

 

steven

 

by the by, im sure youve read the contax 120 is great. it is but it think all of us that own it wish it was autofocus sometime.

[kornelius_j._fleischer]

Do you demand an aperture ring on each of your lenses? Well, I do. Therefore I want to make you aware that two of the AF camera systems discussed here don´t offer it. They just have an aperture display in the viewfinder. The aperture ring on each lens is omitted, not because this gives any benefit to the photographer, but simply to save cost by reducing the number of parts to assemble.

 

Consider this: When changing a lens on a non-aperture-ring system, will the aperture stay where you left it or will it jump to some default value? You might not be aware of that jump when re-attaching that lens. This may result in wrongly exposed images. Yo may want to check that before you decide on a system.

[alberto pastorelli]

As I stated in many other responses, the Pentax 645N is , in my opinion and between the many camera I own, one of the best investment I've made.

And regarding a previous post that claimed : " ...Your Leica gear is able to do things that most MF gear will not be able to do, namely give you excellent photographs while shooting at low shutter speeds handheld..." sorry, but I strongly believe the contrary.

I extensively use the Pentax 645 in any available light with good results. And when you'll start to make enlargment the Leica will remain at home only as a "status symbol".

The Pentax lenses are wonderful, the only one I sold was the 80-160mm that did'nt satisfy me at all.

The 45mm is exceptional, the 120mm macro razor sharp too, not speaking of the 55mm (not autofocus) or the 200mm...

And more,they are cheaper (thank God!) than others...

 

More, it is possible to use via an adapter, great lenses like the Pentacon 6 (Zeiss Jena)

 

The camera body is wonderful with the highest engineering design, with a Photographer in mind. Think only to the double tripod attachment (at 90° degree) that allows you to change from landscape to portrait in one second... All the commands lies where you normally think they must be... it is capable of spot, medium weight and "matrix" readings... wide or "spot" autofocus...continuos or single shot... bracketing... exposure memory lock... all modes... multiple exposure... normal AA batteries...

And the wonderful capability to impress the data (f-stop, shutter speed, mode and reading, on the film out of the frame of each exposure.

 

Yes, it has no interchangeable backs (I mean in the middle of a roll) and no interchangeable viewfinder.

Anyway, she makes wonderful photographs.

regards